Law and Grace

WordSword

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William Kelly (1821-1906)

“Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit (not works) unto God (the fruit or works of the Spirit are by the Spirit through the believer; thus the believer is controlled by the Spirit in His fruit—NC). The law only deals with a man as long as he lives: never after he is dead. “For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That is not at all what is said of us after a ‘second blessing . . . or any other step of imaginary perfection. We begin with it …I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the Law (or law of sin for Gentiles—NC) dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all be receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again . . . as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.

“The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it cannot in any way make the old nature better: neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law (Rom 8:7), and the new man does not need the law. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to God—Christ the Object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Kelly further states, “Some good men who in grievous error would impose the law as a rule of life for the Christian mean very well by it, but the whole principle is false because the law, instead of being a rule of life, is necessarily a rule of death (2Co 3:7) to one who has sin in his nature (must be sinless to keep the law in the right spirit and character—NC), Far from a delivering power, it can only condemn such: far from being a means of holiness (is only moral goodness between men—NC), it is in fact, the strength of sin (1Co 15:56 – it gives sin the right to condemn because it shows the wrong - Jhn 15:22, 24—NC).



Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921)

“Most of us have been reared and now live under the influence of Galatianism (any works of the flesh which hinders, i.e. delays but not prevents spiritual progress—NC). Protestant theology is for the most part thoroughly Galatianized, in that neither the law nor grace is given its distinct and separate place as in the counsels of God, but they are mingled together in one incoherent system.

The law is no longer, as in the divine intent, a ministration of death (2Co 3:7), of cursing (Gal 3:10), or conviction (Ro 3:19), because we are taught that we must try to keep it, and that by divine help we may (supposedly—NC). Nor can grace, on the other hand, bring us blessed deliverance from the dominion of sin, for we are kept under the law as a rule of life despite the plain declaration of Romans 6:14—“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”

How sad to realize that while Calvinism so effectively refutes Arminianism in the real realm of justification, its Covenant theology fails the believer in the realm of sanctification just as badly as does Arminianism (Christians are not in a covenant with God but are recipients of the Covenant of Redemption – Heb 13:20, 21, which is between the Father and the Son, and are eternally “sanctified” Heb 10:14—NC).
 

d taylor

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Calvinism and Arminianism both have theological failures, when it come to presenting a eternal life salvation message. These theological belief systems either front load or back load the eternal life salvation message.

Only free grace gives a Bibical sound eternal life salvation message, free of actions needed outside of faith.
 
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Soyeong

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William Kelly (1821-1906)

“Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit (not works) unto God (the fruit or works of the Spirit are by the Spirit through the believer; thus the believer is controlled by the Spirit in His fruit—NC). The law only deals with a man as long as he lives: never after he is dead. “For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That is not at all what is said of us after a ‘second blessing . . . or any other step of imaginary perfection. We begin with it …I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the Law (or law of sin for Gentiles—NC) dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all be receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again . . . as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.
In John 15:1-10 and Colossians 1:10, it directly connects bearing fruit with obeying God's commandments and doing good works, so there or no grounds for denying that bringing forth fruit is works. Furthermore:

Romans 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

So being alive from the dead does not mean that we no longer need to obey God's law, but just the opposite. In Colossians 3:1-17, there are many sins in transgression of God's law that we are to put to death and many things in obedience to it that we are to put on, so this passage again does not support no longer needing God's law, but just the opposite. In Romans 7:25, Paul said that he served the Law of God with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which he served with his flesh, so we need to be set free from the law of sin on order to be free to serve the Law of God, not the other way around.


“The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it cannot in any way make the old nature better: neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law (Rom 8:7), and the new man does not need the law. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to God—Christ the Object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit.”
God's law was never given to change our nature, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, not to reject God's laws for how to do good works. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so that does not support saying that the new man does not need the law, but just the opposite. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law.


Kelly further states, “Some good men who in grievous error would impose the law as a rule of life for the Christian mean very well by it, but the whole principle is false because the law, instead of being a rule of life, is necessarily a rule of death (2Co 3:7) to one who has sin in his nature (must be sinless to keep the law in the right spirit and character—NC), Far from a delivering power, it can only condemn such: far from being a means of holiness (is only moral goodness between men—NC), it is in fact, the strength of sin (1Co 15:56 – it gives sin the right to condemn because it shows the wrong - Jhn 15:22, 24—NC).
In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God's law is not too difficult to obey and obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to obey it is not a very good reason for someone to choosing death instead of life by refusing to obey it. Nowhere does the Bible state that we need to be sinless in order to keep God's law or that the law can only condemn. In Romans 7:7, God's law is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, a law that is the strength of sin is a law that is sinful, so that is not referring to God's law, but to the law of sin. It does not even make sense to think that the law that reveals what sin is and instructs us not to commit it is the strength of sin, and we should not do what God has revealed to be sin.


Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921)

“Most of us have been reared and now live under the influence of Galatianism (any works of the flesh which hinders, i.e. delays but not prevents spiritual progress—NC). Protestant theology is for the most part thoroughly Galatianized, in that neither the law nor grace is given its distinct and separate place as in the counsels of God, but they are mingled together in one incoherent system.
In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to by His law, so grace and law and not distinct and separate, but rater it is trying to separate God's grace from His law as if God were not one that turns it in an incoherent system.


The law is no longer, as in the divine intent, a ministration of death (2Co 3:7), of cursing (Gal 3:10), or conviction (Ro 3:19), because we are taught that we must try to keep it, and that by divine help we may (supposedly—NC). Nor can grace, on the other hand, bring us blessed deliverance from the dominion of sin, for we are kept under the law as a rule of life despite the plain declaration of Romans 6:14—“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
In Galatians 3:10, cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the law, so that is not a very good reason for someone to choose to not continue to do everything in the law. In Romans 3:19, the law makes the whole world accountable, so again that is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His gift of salvation. In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law were sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Im Romans 6:14, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and the Law of God is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so we are still under it.


How sad to realize that while Calvinism so effectively refutes Arminianism in the real realm of justification, its Covenant theology fails the believer in the realm of sanctification just as badly as does Arminianism (Christians are not in a covenant with God but are recipients of the Covenant of Redemption – Heb 13:20, 21, which is between the Father and the Son, and are eternally “sanctified” Heb 10:14—NC).
Our sanctification is about being made to be like Christ and Christ lived in obedience to God's law.
 
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WordSword

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In John 15:1-10 and Colossians 1:10, it directly connects bearing fruit with obeying God's commandments and doing good works, so there or no grounds for denying that bringing forth fruit is works.
The point is that the fruit and works are the Holy Spirit's and not ours. We are just being used to bring them forth! They never originate with man!
 
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Soyeong

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The point is that the fruit and works are the Holy Spirit's and not ours. We are just being used to bring them forth!
All of the works that God has commanded are God's and we should walk in the Spirit by doing them, however, the post does beyond saying that the works are God's to speaking against obeying His law, which is contrary to the leading of the Spirit.
 
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WordSword

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All of the works that God has commanded are God's and we should walk in the Spirit by doing them, however, the post does beyond saying that the works are God's to speaking against obeying His law, which is contrary to the leading of the Spirit.
"The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." It is proper to be informed that the Law is no longer in effect; and that it was only to Israel for. The Law only warned of the evil and is what made men accountable for sin, hence the need for a savior for redemption; but Israel was saved by the forgiveness of God, not their obedience (Num 15:25).
 
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Soyeong

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"The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." It is proper to be informed that the Law is no longer in effect; and that it was only to Israel for. The Law only warned of the evil and is what made men accountable for sin, hence the need for a savior for redemption; but Israel was saved by the forgiveness of God, not their obedience (Num 15:25).

God's law can only be accurately described as being holy, righteous, and good if it teaches us how to act in accordance with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, so Romans 7:12 proves that God's law does more than warn about evil and make men accountable to sin. The only way that laws for how to act in accordance with God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness can become no longer in effect is if God is no longer holy, righteous, and good. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving laws for how to do that, so the only way that laws for how to be holy as God is holy can no longer be in effect is if God is no longer holy. So following God's law is testifying that He is holy, righteous, and good, while claiming that God's law is no longer in effect is claiming that He is no longer holy, righteous, and good. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so according to God, we should reject your claim that His law is no longer in effect.

God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to live blessed lives by walking in God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), so for them to inherit the promise through faith in accordance with spreading the Gospel is by being a blessing to the nations by teaching them to turn from their wickedness and how to walk in God's ways (Acts 3:25-26). In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
 
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Soyeong

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We're just going to disagree with this issue. God bless!
For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor and honoring our parents are ways to express God's righteousness, but if those laws and all of the other ways to express God's righteousness were to become no longer in effect, then it would be meaningless to say that say that God is righteous because it would communicate nothing about the nature of who He is. To do away with all of the ways to express righteousness is to do away with the concept of righteousness in much the same way that doing away with all of the way to express courage would also do away with the concept of courage.
 
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WordSword

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For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor and honoring our parents are ways to express God's righteousness, but if those laws and all of the other ways to express God's righteousness were to become no longer in effect, then it would be meaningless to say that say that God is righteous because it would communicate nothing about the nature of who He is. To do away with all of the ways to express righteousness is to do away with the concept of righteousness in much the same way that doing away with all of the way to express courage would also do away with the concept of courage.
The way I understand it is that the Decalogue just shows that man is suppose to be civil towards one another, because otherwise man would be evil towards one another, as most are. Remember, "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane" (1Ti 1:9). This answers to why the Law cannot deliver but only show God's will for evil men.
 
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Soyeong

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The way I understand it is that the Decalogue just shows that man is suppose to be civil towards one another, because otherwise man would be evil towards one another, as most are. Remember, "the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane" (1Ti 1:9). This answers to why the Law cannot deliver but only show God's will for evil men.
Either the Israelites were taught about the nature of who God is or they had no understanding of His nature. I don't see any grounds to think that they had no understanding, and I don't see any means of how they were taught other than through the Mosaic Law. So while yes, all of the laws that God has commanded are in regard to how to have civil relationships, they also teach us something about the nature of who God is. It is conceivable that God could have commanded any number of different things and unless what God commanded was completely arbitrary, then there are specific reasons for why God specifically chose to give the commands that He did, and those reasons teach us about the nature of who He is. For example, if God had commanded to commit murder, then that would reveal something very different about the nature of who He is then commanding against committing murder.

In Leviticus 19:2-3, where are instructs to be holy as God as holy by keeping His Sabbaths holy. So while the 4th Commandment does teach us how to have a civil relationship with God, it also teaches us about His holiness. Likewise, when God chose to rest on the 7th day after Creation, blessed the Sabbath, and made it holy, that also teaches us about His holiness, so when we follow his example in accordance with Hebrews 4:10, we are testifying about His holiness and about how there is a God who created the world in in six says and who rested on the seventh. Furthermore, when we keep God's Sabbaths holy as He is holy, we are expressing the belief about the truth of what they teach us about His holiness and we are entering into a relationship with Him through experiencing His holiness.

God's laws for how to be holy as He is holy are made for the unholy because they are the ones who need to be taught how to be holy. Those who try to say that God's law only shows God's will for the unholy order to justify their freedom to be unholy thereby become someone that God's law is for. The Bible is very clear that it is God's will for His people to be holy as He is holy as well as to act in accordance with other aspects of His nature, so you trying to use 1 Timothy 1:9 to say that God's law is only His will for unholy men, then you are deliberately misusing that verse in a way that is contrary to the rest of the Bible.
 
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