Understanding Calvinism

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pinkman

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
511
3
Switzerland
✟696.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Viewing many threads the phrase 'You do not understand Calvinism" has often popped up.

I would like to start a thread where Calvinists can answer really tough questions about what Calvinism means.

Definitely NOT Calvinism vs anything else as its been done and usual ends up with a moderator intervening.

Any takers ?
 

Goinheix

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2010
1,617
31
Montevideo Uruguay
✟2,018.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What do you understand or mean by Calvinist? Are you refering to the doctrines of Calvino and hisfollowers? I think salvation, once you have honetly and actually recieve it, can not be lost. I did not read Calvino but did study the NT. Is it OK if I defend that posture without haven read Calvino?
 
Upvote 0

Jpark

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2008
5,019
181
✟13,882.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'm not a Calvinist but I wanted to be one but it was way too tough to abide by since it's strict.

Have you heard of Animals say the wildest things? The captions are nice and all but I like to interpret it for myself.

I now have a theology system established, my own interpretation:

predestination - ? - free will
belief - ? - deeds
soul - ? - body
Father - ? - Jesus

Can you fill out the question marks? They are (in order):

Jesus' intervention (i.e. Luke 22:31, Rom. 8:34)
heart (Matt. 15:18-20, 12:34-37, 6:19-21, 33)
spirit
Holy Spirit

Until you can understand His conditional intervention (2 Chronicles 7:13-14, Jeremiah 18:7-10, Dan. 9-10, 2 Kings 20:1-6), it is dangerous to venture into predestination theology.

Not all reprobates are forever doomed. The lost of Israel will be retrieved (Romans 11, Matt. 18, Zechariah 13:7, Romans 9:1-4) despite their appointed doom (Matt. 7:6, 1 Peter 2:8, Acts 13:46).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brother Chris

Newbie
Jan 12, 2011
891
63
✟8,852.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Pinkman, there is no such word as "Calvinist" in the bible. Please stop calling it Calvinism or Calvinists. The biblical teaching of God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and eternal security is biblical and true. It is not "Calvinism." Calvin didn't event new biblical truths. He discovered old biblical truths that had been hidden by apostate Christianity (Roman Catholic church and the like).
 
Upvote 0

Jpark

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2008
5,019
181
✟13,882.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I didn't want Calvinist/Reformed Christian Soteriology-Theology, yet the Scriptures made it quite clear that it was impossible to identify it as anything else ^_^
For a second there, I thought you said Sovereignty-Theology. That would have been very good. :cool:

Pinkman, there is no such word as "Calvinist" in the bible. Please stop calling it Calvinism or Calvinists. The biblical teaching of God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and eternal security is biblical and true. It is not "Calvinism." Calvin didn't event new biblical truths. He discovered old biblical truths that had been hidden by apostate Christianity (Roman Catholic church and the like).
More specifically, he elaborated on them.

Discovery of biblical truths is by one's own interpretation. Calvin wanted us to follow his example, not to follow his interpretation (like the Catholic church did with their followers). It is impossible for a man's doctrine to be 100% correct, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit. We must build upon the doctrine, but do it with caution. Full revelation is not given to man until the appointed time which is sometime from now. Hence, everything revealed until now is in bits and pieces and it's up to man to solve the puzzle until God intervenes to do it for us.
 
Upvote 0

Pinkman

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
511
3
Switzerland
✟696.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Originally Posted by Brother Chris
Pinkman, there is no such word as "Calvinist" in the bible. Please stop calling it Calvinism or Calvinists. The biblical teaching of God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and eternal security is biblical and true. It is not "Calvinism." Calvin didn't event new biblical truths. He discovered old biblical truths that had been hidden by apostate Christianity (Roman Catholic church and the like).


When I say Calvinist I mean those who hold to what you describe above as opposed to those who do not.

Also I don't suggest that Calvinist follow Calvin. His teaching yes but he did not invent it as you say.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟26,729.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to see Calvinists define their beliefs too, but so far all I see is them declaring their views the only Biblical ones. How about some definitions, since everybody allegedly misunderstands their teachings?

The real question is, would you even be persuaded if they did? Considering your presuppositions towards Calvinism, I highly doubt it.
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟34,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Then what is this thread for?

Anyway, the other thread makes some blanket statements, not definitions. Can't Calvinists just post here the proper definitions of what they say is misunderstood?
That'd of course just be swapping out words, which would then be misinterpreted and turned back the way the first set were.

And ultimately it wouldn't sway anyone. People who are credulous of their authorities remain so.

Words have meaning in context. "Provide proper definitions" requires defining the way people use words. I believe you'll find that in an epistemology class? If not there, some linguistics would help.

For instance:

"righteousness" and "faith" are variously defined. Calvinism posits that "righteousness" in Greek is conventionally a declaration, something akin to "the verdict of not guilty" in the present day. It's a statement about a verdict, an assessment.

"faith in" is a trust and dependence in the grammatical object. When it's a fact, the statement means something akin to "believe-about" in modern English; when it's a person, the statement means something akin to "I have faith in you" in modern English.
 
Upvote 0

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Viewing many threads the phrase 'You do not understand Calvinism" has often popped up.

I would like to start a thread where Calvinists can answer really tough questions about what Calvinism means.

Definitely NOT Calvinism vs anything else as its been done and usual ends up with a moderator intervening.

Any takers ?
According to calvinism, was Adam a son of God?

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3:37-38&version=KJV
 
Upvote 0

2thePoint

Looking Up
May 19, 2005
752
87
Visit site
✟16,321.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The real question is, would you even be persuaded if they did? Considering your presuppositions towards Calvinism, I highly doubt it.
That's not the question at all. The OP wants Calvinists to provide definitions for things they say are misunderstood. Can any Calvinist do that? It's a simple enough request.

On the other hand, making snide remarks about what I would or would not do with the answers (if they are ever given at all), is an ad hominem and a red herring-- two fallacies for the price of one! :D
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟26,729.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
On the other hand, making snide remarks about what I would or would not do with the answers (if they are ever given at all), is an ad hominem and a red herring-- two fallacies for the price of one!

Well, "snide remarks," "ad hominem," and "red herring" are merely rhetorical labels which you have applied in order to obfuscate my point.

Perhaps you (or readers) need a refresher of the nature of your interactions with Calvinists and Calvinism in Soteriology. Besides the usual insinuations of Calvinism as "doctrines of men/demons" and making God into a "Monster," I recall a specific instance where Calvinism was attempted to be pressed into the service of the feminist discourse of oppressive patriarchy and chauvinism. It was interesting, to say the least. I am sorry if it made me wonder why you were looking for more definitions when you provided some of your own, before.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟34,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
According to calvinism, was Adam a son of God?

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3:37-38&version=KJV
As can be readily demonstrated, there are so many definitions running around that the definitions are indeed clearly misunderstood -- we can say that generally because it's generally true, and we can say that specifically because it's obviously true in most particulars that attempt to describe Calvinism from outside its group.

I generally point people to "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner if they want to get a better handle on the items of the Five Points of Calvinism.

Reformed theology itself is a broad subject. Some elements of Scripture have been examined in excruciating detail. "The Imputation of Adam's Sin" (Murray) is a short book on exegesis and interpretation of a wildly shorter phrase. Meanwhile, "The Christ of the Covenants" (Robertson) is a fairly long & detailed book on how covenants interact in Scripture.

They are both drenched in the Biblical-Historical method that Vos made so prominent, and I vaguely remember Murray only described the different situations in Reformed thought and how they emerged with the conclusion of immediate imputation. In other words -- want to challenge something? Murray's briefly described the what's & how's that led Reformed thinkers where they are.

For even greater depth, I'd probably recommend Charles Hodge. He's readable, at least as far as 19th century writers go, and he gets in enough depth while also being fairly irenic, at least with other Protestants.

At this point claiming "no you're not providing definitions" is something of a mistake. We've already discussed Calvinism's lack of change to the meanings of words it sets down. We've also been accused of such in the particulars of some passages.

And now I've explained why it's not tenable to "just give one definition". It's because words themselves can be shifted in meaning, just like the original words. We can explain how those meanings shifted over time, or even in some instances how Reformed thought shifted away from ideas it once thought plausible, but now no more. But we can't define things statically. Language isn't static.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2thePoint

Looking Up
May 19, 2005
752
87
Visit site
✟16,321.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well, "snide remarks," "ad hominem," and "red herring" are merely rhetorical labels which you have applied in order to obfuscate my point.
No. I'm trying to stick to the OP and the simple quest for definitions.

This sort of response is why all people do is fight instead of discuss. And rather than throw your "you need a refresher course on the nature of your interactions" back at you (your responses are a prime example of such a need), I'll just leave this board completely and permanently, because nobody wants to discuss things rationally and with civility. Regardless of the topic, this is always what happens, but I won't be a part of it anymore. Thank you for pounding that final nail into the coffin.
 
Upvote 0

cygnusx1

Jacob the twister.....
Apr 12, 2004
56,208
3,104
UK Northampton
Visit site
✟79,726.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to see Calvinists define their beliefs too, but so far all I see is them declaring their views the only Biblical ones. How about some definitions, since everybody allegedly misunderstands their teachings?


God is entirely responsible for anyone being saved and man is accountable and entirely responsible for his own damnation.

that about sums up "Calvinist-soteriology" .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Faith.Man
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟26,729.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No. I'm trying to stick to the OP and the simple quest for definitions.

This is fine. What about the reactionary replies, though?

2thePoint said:
This sort of response is why all people do is fight instead of discuss.

Thus, another presupposition is revealed. This is a debate forum. We are all trying to reinforce our faith and come to a correct theology. If you want spiritual encouragement, and no doctrinal debate, go to one of the outreach and fellowship fora.

2thePoint said:
I'll just leave this board completely and permanently, because nobody wants to discuss things rationally and with civility. Regardless of the topic, this is always what happens, but I won't be a part of it anymore. Thank you for pounding that final nail into the coffin.

An entirely predictable reaction, indeed. People are discussing theology rationally and with civility. However, when it comes to engaging actual arguments, others do not want to have their presuppositions or methodologies deconstructed to arrive at the heart of the matter. Does this not suggest that perhaps they should reformulate these things before approaching the issue(s) at hand?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zeena

..called to BE a Saint
Jul 30, 2004
5,811
691
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As can be readily demonstrated, there are so many definitions running around that the definitions are indeed clearly misunderstood -- we can say that generally because it's generally true, and we can say that specifically because it's obviously true in most particulars that attempt to describe Calvinism from outside its group.

I generally point people to "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner if they want to get a better handle on the items of the Five Points of Calvinism.

Reformed theology itself is a broad subject. Some elements of Scripture have been examined in excruciating detail. "The Imputation of Adam's Sin" (Murray) is a short book on exegesis and interpretation of a wildly shorter phrase. Meanwhile, "The Christ of the Covenants" (Robertson) is a fairly long & detailed book on how covenants interact in Scripture.

They are both drenched in the Biblical-Historical method that Vos made so prominent, and I vaguely remember Murray only described the different situations in Reformed thought and how they emerged with the conclusion of immediate imputation. In other words -- want to challenge something? Murray's briefly described the what's & how's that led Reformed thinkers where they are.

For even greater depth, I'd probably recommend Charles Hodge. He's readable, at least as far as 19th century writers go, and he gets in enough depth while also being fairly irenic, at least with other Protestants.

At this point claiming "no you're not providing definitions" is something of a mistake. We've already discussed Calvinism's lack of change to the meanings of words it sets down. We've also been accused of such in the particulars of some passages.

And now I've explained why it's not tenable to "just give one definition". It's because words themselves can be shifted in meaning, just like the original words. We can explain how those meanings shifted over time, or even in some instances how Reformed thought shifted away from ideas it once thought plausible, but now no more. But we can't define things statically. Language isn't static.
Are you calvinist? :confused:

Where is the answer to my question?

According to calvinism, was Adam a son of God?

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

James 5:12
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.