Under what circumstances is the Scripture the 'Word of God'

[Graceisgraceworksareworks]

THAT

Lets be clear - I have never cast doubt on God's living Word.

What I have said is that some on CF present Scripture and claim that what they are saying is God's Word when their theology is wacky.

I have also said that Satan used the Scriptures to tempt Jesus and he was not motivated by the Holy Spirit.

Anyone can pick up the bible as claim all sorts of rubbish and it happens...

Not all who quote Scripture are being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I have also said that because the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth our translations don't have to be technically perfect.

that is true that people can use the Bible justify all sorts of crazy doctrines and do. The part i disagree with is that non of the Bible present can be trusted which to me is really out there since the word is the foundation of your faith so without it you have no foundation and are on sinking sand

 

[Carl Emerson]

THAT


that is true that people can use the Bible justify all sorts of crazy doctrines and do. The part i disagree with is that non of the Bible present can be trusted which to me is really out there since the word is the foundation of your faith so without it you have no foundation and are on sinking sand

Well you have assumed I held that position, which I dont...

God has watched over the process of keeping scripture sufficiently accurate to serve the purpose for which it was intended.

That is - a tool in the hands of the faithful who, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, can be led into all truth.

It doesn't have to be perfect to be perfectly used of God.

 

[Nux]

every word in the Bible is the word of God

What translation or version or revision do you refer to as "The Word of God"? Do you know what the name of God is?

 

[Nux]

I have also said that because the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth our translations don't have to be technically perfect

I hope it is so. All that denominations, creeds, "translators" and "teachers" they haven't managed to make the truth spoken by Jahweh God and Jesus Christ his Son fully unavailable. It still shines. You just have to listen to Jesus alone and not what is spoken from all that pulpits, use interlinear, and dig deeper. Not an easy task I would say but this is why those faithful to the end are called conquerors. We have to fight the world, weakness of our flash and, in addition, what today is called "christianity", so there is no support except that one from God and his Christ and the humble Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Exactly - without the Holy Spirit giving understanding (not personal interpretation) (not stolen words) His Word is not heard.

 

[jamiec]

Hi there,

This is a sensitive topic but one that needs to be raised.

It is a strong tradition to refer to the Bible as the 'Word of God'.

Some folks on CF tend to even use Scripture as a weapon - the 'Sword of the Spirit'

You may have experienced this - raise an issue for serious consideration and the response is a barrage of Scripture - often not really addressing the issue.

It is like the Words are presented as magic...

Can I suggest this is not what the 'Word of God' is all about.

Consider the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness - Satans weapon of choice was Scripture.

Was the 'Word of God' being manifest when Satan quoted Scripture?

Absolutely not.

In fact Jesus is the 'Word of God' and Satan presumed to tempt and hopefully deceive Truth Himself with quotes from Scripture !!!

So when is the Scripture 'God's Word' ???

When the quotations are being presented under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

All too often on CF we see a battle of Scripture and this should never be so - clearly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not motivating the contest, players are simply holding fast to traditional theology by human loyalty, while laying claim to 'God's Word'.

The sad fact is that God's Word - Jesus is not being understood.

Jesus is sustaining all of creation as the Word of God.

Jesus is indwelling true believers and He is not silent.

The Word of God is vastly more magnificent than we could ask or think, He is supreme, we owe Him our all.

He is much more widely active than just enabling us to understand and present Scripture fruitfully. Yet some believe the Scripture is His only opportunity to be heard.

Bow down to the Living Word - Jesus

Reflect on the enormity of His power and splendour.

He wants to bring alive the words written in His special book.

Then to you it will truely be, in that moment, the Word of God.

When God enlivens it to be Scripture. The bare words by themselves as static entities on the page are not Scripture, or not fully (IMHO).

It's a very good question, and deserves to be asked. I think inspiration is not a past Divine act, complete for all time to come; but a past Divine act, that is continually renewed & energised in the life of the Church.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Exactly - without the Holy Spirit giving understanding (not personal interpretation) (not stolen words) His Word is not heard.

How do we know the difference between Holy Spirit and ourselves?

I myself think you don't know, all you can do is your best. Part of the game is learning over time to distinguish between the holy spirit and ourselves.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How do we know the difference between Holy Spirit and ourselves?

I myself think you don't know, all you can do is your best. Part of the game is learning over time to distinguish between the holy spirit and ourselves.

As John says - for the Elect the Holy Spirit within is our teacher.

It does take years to develop a sense of what is us and what is Him and it doesn't come easy.

I set aside over 5 years of devotional reading of scripture only - no 'Christian bias' - that is a good start.

 

[Clare73]

When God enlivens it to be Scripture. The bare words by themselves as static entities on the page are not Scripture, or not fully (IMHO).

It's a very good question, and deserves to be asked. I think inspiration is not a past Divine act, complete for all time to come; but a past Divine act, that is continually renewed & energised in the life of the Church.

1) All Scripture is God-breathed (2 Ti 3:16) making all of it the word of God.
Misusing it does not render it the word of man, or anyone' else word, but only the word of God misused.

Misusing the words of the US Constitution does not mean those are not the words of the Constitution.

2) Logos in Jn 1:1 does not refer to linguistics, but to the Greek philosophical concept of the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe, whom in the opening of his gospel John declares to be the despised and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, the eternal Logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

"Word" in Jn 1:1 does not refer to speech or writing.
John is the only one in the The NT who refers to Jesus as "the Word."
It is not used of him by anyone else anywhere else in the NT.
The "Word of God" means he was the creator with God (Col 1:16-17) and is God (Jn 1:1).

 

[Carl Emerson]

1) All Scripture is God-breathed (2 Ti 3:16) making all of it the word of God.
Misusing it does not render it the word of man, or anyone' else word, but only the word of God misused.

Misusing the words of the US Constitution does not mean those are not the words of the Constitution.

2) Logos in Jn 1:1 does not refer to linguistics, but to the Greek philosophical concept of the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe, whom in the opening of his gospel John declares to be the despised and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, the eternal Logos, source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

"Word" in Jn 1:1 does not refer to speech or writing.
John is the only one in the The NT who refers to Jesus as "the Word."
It is not used of him by anyone else anywhere else in the NT.
The "Word of God" means he was the creator with God (Col 1:16-17) and is God (Jn 1:1).

Great response as always...

Point 1. does not address the issue of translation.

Is the Scripture the original language i.e. Greek for the NT ?

At the time of the early church Paul references the Septuagint which is in Greek also.

My tutor in Greek was Prof Blaikloch who was on the translation team for the NIV.

He maintained that Greek was God's choice for two reasons.

First it was a trade language commonly understood across the known world and the Gospel was therefore able to spread with great rapidity.

Second - the language was developed sufficiently to carry the concepts God wanted to communicate, so nuances of meaning could be conveyed with depth and with accuracy.

However without the Holy Spirit revealing the meaning intended - even studying in the Greek can be lifeless.

Point 2. Yes... Jesus is the living Word of God. His Spirit reveals the God's heart meaning to us as we read. The Elect have this gift and it is our primary source of truth and source of teaching according to John's first epistle. What commonly brings confusion is when folks steal one another's words and repeat it as truth when they haven't personally received it - in fact God hates this.

 

[LightLoveHope]

How do we know the difference between Holy Spirit and ourselves?

I myself think you don't know, all you can do is your best. Part of the game is learning over time to distinguish between the holy spirit and ourselves.

This is a good question if we are merely obedient robots who must do as we are told and bear no free will or choice.
Once one begins to understand we are being built up to be like Jesus, to act on love and compassion for others from our hearts, we are working together with the Holy Spirit in our lives and actions.

Jesus described Himself as being one with the Father, and that we should be one with one another. A lot of discipleship is identifying our behaviour and its triggers and bringing these under the cross, love and an eternal perspective. John describes things in terms of obedience without knowing it, we find ourselves obeying the commandments.

Often people believe the spiritual gifts are about knowing like a fortune cookie that if you obey everything will turn out fine. Jesus's way is to see the need and then choosing which different ways one can help meet that need. The Lord wants to encourage us in these expression but leaves us to discover and explore the how and why. I have found it profound and difficult to see the partnership of working together rather than just being a servant who is ordered where to go and what to do. Some worship songs seem to emphasise the Lord taking over, when the Lord desires that we share in His love and its expression and it is expressed by us and the Lord.

God bless you

 

[Clare73]

Great response as always...

Thanks. . .you're not too shabby yourself!
I enjoy your postings.

Point 1. does not address the issue of translation.
Is the Scripture the original language i.e. Greek for the NT ?
At the time of the early church Paul references the Septuagint which is in Greek also.
My tutor in Greek was Prof Blaikloch who was on the translation team for the NIV.

Wow! That's impressive. . .

He maintained that Greek was God's choice for two reasons.

First it was a trade language commonly understood across the known world and the Gospel was therefore able to spread with great rapidity.

Second - the language was developed sufficiently to carry the concepts God wanted to communicate, so nuances of meaning could be conveyed with depth and with accuracy.

However without the Holy Spirit revealing the meaning intended - even studying in the Greek can be lifeless.

I'm thinking the meaning intended is the meaning of the words used, understood in their context.

Point 2. Yes... Jesus is the living Word of God. His Spirit reveals the God's heart meaning to us as we read. The Elect have this gift and it is our primary source of truth and source of teaching according to John's first epistle. What commonly brings confusion is when folks steal one another's words and repeat it as truth when they haven't personally received it - in fact God hates this.

Just keeping in mind "Word of God" is peculiar to John, no one else uses it in regard to Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm thinking the meaning intended is the meaning of the words used, understood in their context.

The point is many meanings conveyed by the Greek words and grammar give understanding in themselves often much better than english. Context does not always help.

English is a poor conveyer of subtle meaning compared to Greek.

However this is not to diminish the fine job most translations do in conveying the important central aspects of the gospel.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps when the scripture records God actually speaking?

(reflecting on how Paul said that he was speaking, not the Lord)

Also when God uses a passage, or anything for that matter (potter's wheel) to speak to us individually.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hi there,

This is a sensitive topic but one that needs to be raised.

It is a strong tradition to refer to the Bible as the 'Word of God'.

Some folks on CF tend to even use Scripture as a weapon - the 'Sword of the Spirit'

You may have experienced this - raise an issue for serious consideration and the response is a barrage of Scripture - often not really addressing the issue.

It is like the Words are presented as magic...

Can I suggest this is not what the 'Word of God' is all about.

Great topic, Carl. Thanks!

 

[Saint Steven]

What I notice is that when someone doesn't agree with someone else's interpretation of scripture and or the particular doctrine they're dedicated to, they'll pull the Word of God card.

That you're going against the Holy God Breathed Word of God.

Basically it's their way of saying that by disagreeing with their interpretation and or doctrine, you're committing sacrilege by calling God a liar and so on.

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or my personal favorite, "Your argument is not with me." The inference all too obvious.

 

[Saint Steven]

'That's not biblical' is also a common cry when feathers are ruffled...

Yup.
If your "feathers are ruffled", the problem is on your end. (indicates SELF-defense)

 

[ozso]

There's someone on a usenet forum who very sincerely says anything you say against his posts is blasphemy against the Holy Spirt.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's someone on a usenet forum who very sincerely says anything you say against his posts is blasphemy against the Holy Spirt.

That's what the IGNORE button is for. - LOL
Life is so much better that way. (but I still feel a little guilty)

 

[ozso]

That's what the IGNORE button is for. - LOL
Life is so much better that way. (but I still feel a little guilty)

No ignore button or moderators on most usenet newsgroups. In the old days you could "killfile" someone if you had a good enough newsreader. I don't think those exist any longer. It was all transformed into Google Groups years ago.