Under what circumstances is the Scripture the 'Word of God'

[throughfiierytrial]

Are you agreeing mypost #219 or not?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I agree we are not to be quarrelsome as I and II Timothy straight up state. When a believer "discusses" Scripture with an unbeliever the Christian must keep this in mind and not be reduced to participating in a quarrel as apposed to an enlightening discussion. (Likewise, discussions between mature believers and immature believers.)
It is almost always worth a try to enlighten anyone...the Word may penetrate the other person's heart should the Lord bless you in your endeavor.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree we are not to be quarrelsome as I and II Timothy straight up state. When a believer "discusses" Scripture with an unbeliever the Christian must keep this in mind and not be reduced to participating in a quarrel as apposed to an enlightening discussion. (Likewise, discussions between mature believers and immature believers.)
It is almost always worth a try to enlighten anyone...the Word may penetrate the other person's heart should the Lord bless you in your endeavor.

Yes, this is precisely what I have been saying - the Word MAY penetrate if scripture is quoted. In such a case His Word is manifest.

However many believe that because Scripture is quoted, God in the moment has spoken.

This is clearly often not the case for several reasons:

1. Scripture can be quoted to defend a non-truth.

2. Scripture can be quoted in the flesh, missing God's time and purpose, and even harden the hearts of the hearers in the process.

3. Scripture can be quoted out of context in ignorance.

4. Scripture can be quoted to purposely deceive.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, this is precisely what I have been saying - the Word MAY penetrate if scripture is quoted. In such a case His Word is manifest.

However many believe that because Scripture is quoted, God in the moment has spoken.

This is clearly often not the case for several reasons:

1. Scripture can be quoted to defend a non-truth.

2. Scripture can be quoted in the flesh, missing God's time and purpose, and even harden the hearts of the hearers in the process.

3. Scripture can be quoted out of context in ignorance.

4. Scripture can be quoted to purposely deceive.efit

This is when one bows out of the discussion explaining what is happening so readers benefit

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This is when one bows out of the discussion explaining what is happening so readers benefit

I'll have to respond more fully once I'm on my main computer...not this phone.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, this is precisely what I have been saying - the Word MAY penetrate if scripture is quoted. In such a case His Word is manifest.

However many believe that because Scripture is quoted, God in the moment has spoken.

This is clearly often not the case for several reasons:

1. Scripture can be quoted to defend a non-truth.

2. Scripture can be quoted in the flesh, missing God's time and purpose, and even harden the hearts of the hearers in the process.

3. Scripture can be quoted out of context in ignorance.

4. Scripture can be quoted to purposely deceive.

Those who attempt to teach or preach the Gospel must pray for and exercise discernment for it is required...
Hebrews 5:13-14:
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Matthew 24:45:
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
Philippians 1:9-11:
9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

Let me quote some Scripture which pertain to your comments.
How and why did Apostle Paul quote Scripture when defending the Truth and for what purpose? Here's an example...
II Corinthians 11:12-15:
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
II Corinthians 10:1-6:
10 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
Paul uses the Word as his tool to fight false doctrine...God's Word does not return to Him void; it will accomplish the purpose for which He sent it as Scripture states (Isaiah 55:11). This purpose may be to give the deceiver or unbeliever every opportunity and when not taken they are hardened further. According to the doctrine of predestination and Jesus' words, the elect cannot be permanently corrupted...Peter was deceived, but rescued by Paul in Galatians.
I think it important to continue to use Scripture in battling false doctrine (as Scripture instructs). However, one may not be equal to the task at hand. .The deceiver may for example continue to use deceitful reasoning such as circular reasoning and the like which is then a fruitless effort and in keeping with the words of I Timothy you bow out (I believe, with a warning)...
II Timothy 2:23-26:
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
We attempt to protect the sheep with our defense of the Gospel, and some are taken in by deceivers...temporarily so...we must remember, however, the sheep of Jesus are protected and no one thwarts God's will...
Job 5:12-13:
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
Romans 8:28:
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Proverbs 27:17:
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one person sharpens another.
John 10:27-29:
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I have to go with it references the whole of the Bible. A quick 'test' would be to read just Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 to see if they mesh or are in opposition to each other. If they mesh, then God wrote the complete book using 40 different Scribes. That means mortal men could not write the ending that supports the beginning, like the current Bible does. (1611KJV Edition)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Those who attempt to teach or preach the Gospel must pray for and exercise discernment for it is required...
Hebrews 5:13-14:
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Matthew 24:45:
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
Philippians 1:9-11:
9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

Let me quote some Scripture which pertain to your comments.
How and why did Apostle Paul quote Scripture when defending the Truth and for what purpose? Here's an example...
II Corinthians 11:12-15:
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
II Corinthians 10:1-6:
10 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
Paul uses the Word as his tool to fight false doctrine...God's Word does not return to Him void; it will accomplish the purpose for which He sent it as Scripture states (Isaiah 55:11). This purpose may be to give the deceiver or unbeliever every opportunity and when not taken they are hardened further. According to the doctrine of predestination and Jesus' words, the elect cannot be permanently corrupted...Peter was deceived, but rescued by Paul in Galatians.
I think it important to continue to use Scripture in battling false doctrine (as Scripture instructs). However, one may not be equal to the task at hand. .The deceiver may for example continue to use deceitful reasoning such as circular reasoning and the like which is then a fruitless effort and in keeping with the words of I Timothy you bow out (I believe, with a warning)...
II Timothy 2:23-26:
23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
We attempt to protect the sheep with our defense of the Gospel, and some are taken in by deceivers...temporarily so...we must remember, however, the sheep of Jesus are protected and no one thwarts God's will...
Job 5:12-13:
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
Romans 8:28:
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Proverbs 27:17:
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one person sharpens another.
John 10:27-29:
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

Thanks for the lovely bunch of Scriptures which I am very familiar with.

Could you plainly indicate what message you were trying to bring through them as it pertains to the OP and the dialogue.

Many Thanks,

 

[Mingo Bible Believer]

I think that what is written on our heats is much more than the law but rather the very character of Christ.

...see my ref. to 2Cor 3:3 above.

We do not have to guess what is written on the heart under the new covenant. It is defined in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Yet I suspect that it can indeed be seen as the very character of Christ.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Thanks for the lovely bunch of Scriptures which I am very familiar with.

Could you plainly indicate what message you were trying to bring through them as it pertains to the OP and the dialogue.

Many Thanks,

I believe I answered your OP question many times over...the Scriptures never cease to be the Word of God...it is people who misquote and and use wrong context. It is your job to correct the quotes or context..using Scripture itself.
I hope your solution isn't to ban the use of Scripture quoting.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I believe I answered your OP question many times over...the Scriptures never cease to be the Word of God...it is people who misquote and and use wrong context. It is your job to correct the quotes or context..using Scripture itself.
I hope your solution isn't to ban the use of Scripture quoting.

I love your humour...

Carl Emerson bans Scripture...

You have agreed that the Word of God does not exist without the Spirit of God. (We cant divide the trinity...)

So it is with Scripture - without the Spirit operating and active in the reading or proclaiming His Word is not speaking.

By the way he does not confine Himself to speaking through scripture - even a Donkey can proclaim His Word. (Numbers 22:28)

 

[Tom Storey]

Hi there,

This is a sensitive topic but one that needs to be raised.

It is a strong tradition to refer to the Bible as the 'Word of God'.

Some folks on CF tend to even use Scripture as a weapon - the 'Sword of the Spirit'

You may have experienced this - raise an issue for serious consideration and the response is a barrage of Scripture - often not really addressing the issue.

It is like the Words are presented as magic...

Can I suggest this is not what the 'Word of God' is all about.

Consider the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness - Satans weapon of choice was Scripture.

Was the 'Word of God' being manifest when Satan quoted Scripture?

Absolutely not.

In fact Jesus is the 'Word of God' and Satan presumed to tempt and hopefully deceive Truth Himself with quotes from Scripture !!!

So when is the Scripture 'God's Word' ???

When the quotations are being presented under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

All too often on CF we see a battle of Scripture and this should never be so - clearly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not motivating the contest, players are simply holding fast to traditional theology by human loyalty, while laying claim to 'God's Word'.

The sad fact is that God's Word - Jesus is not being understood.

Jesus is sustaining all of creation as the Word of God.

Jesus is indwelling true believers and He is not silent.

The Word of God is vastly more magnificent than we could ask or think, He is supreme, we owe Him our all.

He is much more widely active than just enabling us to understand and present Scripture fruitfully. Yet some believe the Scripture is His only opportunity to be heard.

Bow down to the Living Word - Jesus

Reflect on the enormity of His power and splendour.

He wants to bring alive the words written in His special book.

Then to you it will truely be, in that moment, the Word of God.

I was thinking that the Bible as a whole is the word of God - and Jesus the Word incarnate. That does not mean we are supposed to look to the Bible texts as being 'literally' true. This would entail a rather bizarre set of misreadings, impositions and category errors. The Bible is inspired texts. The human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, write truthfully in human language of the divine. That in itself of necessity generates disturbance, as human language is inherently unstable and incomplete in itself, whereas God is perfect and unchanging. I rather think that's in large measure the point. Our very reading of the Bible stretches across this hardly thinkable gulf between the human and the divine. It is an incredibly dynamic process to engage with a close and detailed reading of the Bible. It is never the same read twice. Yours, Oliver

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I was thinking that the Bible as a whole is the word of God - and Jesus the Word incarnate. That does not mean we are supposed to look to the Bible texts as being 'literally' true. This would entail a rather bizarre set of misreadings, impositions and category errors. The Bible is inspired texts. The human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, write truthfully in human language of the divine. That in itself of necessity generates disturbance, as human language is inherently unstable and incomplete in itself, whereas God is perfect and unchanging. I rather think that's in large measure the point. Our very reading of the Bible stretches across this hardly thinkable gulf between the human and the divine. It is an incredibly dynamic process to engage with a close and detailed reading of the Bible. It is never the same read twice. Yours, Oliver

You do know that this is circular reasoning on your part...
The Bible is inspired texts. The human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, write truthfully in human language of the divine....
That in itself of necessity generates disturbance, as human language is inherently unstable and incomplete in itself, whereas God is perfect and unchanging.

These 2 thoughts are contradictory. If the Word is inspired, it is totally reliable and True....
II Timothy 3:15-17:
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Seems you are finding fault with this Timothy passage. Re more careful in your Scripture reading and less of your own intellect or reasoning. It is imperative for your salvation.
I Corinthians 1:20-21:
... Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[Tom Storey]

You do know that this is circular reasoning on your part...
The Bible is inspired texts. The human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, write truthfully in human language of the divine....
That in itself of necessity generates disturbance, as human language is inherently unstable and incomplete in itself, whereas God is perfect and unchanging.

These 2 thoughts are contradictory. If the Word is inspired, it is totally reliable and True....
II Timothy 3:15-17:
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Seems you are finding fault with this Timothy passage. Re more careful in your Scripture reading and less of your own intellect or reasoning. It is imperative for your salvation.
I Corinthians 1:20-21:
... Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

No - your argument misses the point - the point of Jesus Christ, the point of Truth. The point is to disturb. The point is for Jesus to be throwing all over the place the benches of the money-lenders in the Temple. The point is that when Jesus' followers followed Jesus into Jerusalem, they were amazed and afraid - to quote. This debate, this shock, this doing away with what you thought you know/knew is the point. That is why and how the Bible is both 100% human and fallibly human and 100% divine. This little tiny shock - I've read it, you've read it - we have both studied it - read in Latin and Greek and Hebrew - sure - that is Bible study! And yet..... You never never never read what you read in the Bible the same twice.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I was thinking that the Bible as a whole is the word of God - and Jesus the Word incarnate. That does not mean we are supposed to look to the Bible texts as being 'literally' true. This would entail a rather bizarre set of misreadings, impositions and category errors. The Bible is inspired texts. The human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, write truthfully in human language of the divine. That in itself of necessity generates disturbance, as human language is inherently unstable and incomplete in itself, whereas God is perfect and unchanging. I rather think that's in large measure the point. Our very reading of the Bible stretches across this hardly thinkable gulf between the human and the divine. It is an incredibly dynamic process to engage with a close and detailed reading of the Bible. It is never the same read twice. Yours, Oliver

What would you think about the method Jesus uses to derive the doctrine of the resurrection from the Law?

Matt 22:31 Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!”​

Jesus' logic is quite clear. God told Moses (Ex 3:6) that He is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. God didn't say he WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Therefore, those three are not only alive in some way, but they will be raised from the dead, because God is not the God of the dead but the living. Jesus has focused in on the imperfect verb tense to derive the doctrine of the resurrection.

On first glance this can't be what Moses intended to write. Surely in Ex 3:6 it's just saying this is the same God that revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But Jesus doesn't apply this idiomatic understanding, and yet this is his argument for the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

As it turns out, this happens to be a very typical Rabbinical argument for the resurrection. The Rabbi's also zero in on this logic to derive the doctrine of the resurrection. They do it with Num 18:28 (b. Sanh 90b) and Ex 6:4 (b. Sanh 90b). Both the logic of the Rabbi's and Jesus use a specific exegetical rule that would be formulated in Rabbinical methods as Hillel the Elder's 7th rule (Hillel's Rules).

So we have Jesus using Rabbinical rules to justify his views on the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. But, in order for this method of exegesis to make any sense, much less actually justify a conclusion and work in a debate (such as between Jesus and the Sadducees) there are a few critical assumptions about the nature of the text that must be granted. I'll use David Instone-Brewer's list of exegetical assumptions as a start:

(source)

Don't let his nomological vs inspiriational view distract as both views have an incredibly high view of scripture, beyond what you seem to grant. What this indicates is that Jesus' view of scriptures was probably higher than the most conservative statements (ie the Chicago Statement). Jesus takes the Law the be totally self-consistent in the most minute of details and without error. In fact, when looking at the other arguments in Matt 22, Jesus uses other Rabbinical exegetical arguments indicating he saw the scriptures basically as they did, and as Instone-Brewer summarizes well. To make his argument about the resurrection, Jesus assumed the highest view of scripture in the most minute detail. Instone-Brewer again:

ref: Publications

Jesus' view of scripture goes well beyond what even modern conservative statements about inerrency demand.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's the Word of God when it's used to comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable, to paraphrase Luther.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's the Word of God when it's used to comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable, to paraphrase Luther.

As long as the 'user' is God Himself.

 

[okay]

Yes... However, Paul and Timothy were anointed by God to deliver the Truth and many on CF are not.

As I said, it takes more than just quoting scripture to present an inspired response.

That is the message of this thread.

Exchanging bible verses can be fruitless.

Great thread! I am new here and have been pretty disappointed by seeing threads with post after post that contain walls of scripture with little or no explanation of what the person is trying to say.

I agree that the Spirit is needed for spiritually useful interaction with scripture. After all, while Jesus clearly valued scripture, he told his disciples that he would send the Spirit of truth to guide them and teach them what they were not yet ready to bear (John 16).

In my experience, another requirement for the Bible to be fruitful is for me to have some humility when reading, hearing and sharing it. I don’t have it all figured out, and no one else does either. A posture of humility keeps us open to the prodding of the Spirit and to our own ability to reason. I think the Spirit sometimes speaks to us directly through scripture but also can speak through people we meet that have very different viewpoints on scripture that we perhaps haven’t considered before. I think some of the posts we have all seen that use verses as weapons come from a place of arrogance. People are certain they are right about what the Bible means, and if Bible=“Word of God” then disagreeing with their opinion effectively means disagreeing with God.

<snip>

Lets stop worshiping the Bible and worship Jesus our Saviour and Lord.

This observation that people/churches sometimes worship the Bible rings true to me. The Bible is important, but it isn't Jesus, who is the living Word of God.

Cheers

jason

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Great thread! I am new here and have been pretty disappointed by seeing threads with post after post that contain walls of scripture with little or no explanation of what the person is trying to say.

I agree that the Spirit is needed for spiritually useful interaction with scripture. After all, while Jesus clearly valued scripture, he told his disciples that he would send the Spirit of truth to guide them and teach them what they were not yet ready to bear (John 16).

In my experience, another requirement for the Bible to be fruitful is for me to have some humility when reading, hearing and sharing it. I don’t have it all figured out, and no one else does either. A posture of humility keeps us open to the prodding of the Spirit and to our own ability to reason. I think the Spirit sometimes speaks to us directly through scripture but also can speak through people we meet that have very different viewpoints on scripture that we perhaps haven’t considered before. I think some of the posts we have all seen that use verses as weapons come from a place of arrogance. People are certain they are right about what the Bible means, and if Bible=“Word of God” then disagreeing with their opinion effectively means disagreeing with God.


This observation that people/churches sometimes worship the Bible rings true to me. The Bible is important, but it isn't Jesus, who is the living Word of God.

Cheers

jason

Some things feel pretty demeaning and just cause rage.

Around the top of the list are things like being tailgated by someone in a german car.

Another one is being "BibleVerseCut/Pasted". A full blown "BibleVerseCutPasting" should come with a "You're not disagreeing with Meee, You're disagreeing with God". Or "I'm not saying it, God's saying it".

;-)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some things feel pretty demeaning and just cause rage.

Around the top of the list are things like being tailgated by someone in a german car.

Another one is being "BibleVerseCut/Pasted". A full blown "BibleVerseCutPasting" should come with a "You're not disagreeing with Meee, You're disagreeing with God". Or "I'm not saying it, God's saying it".

;-)

If He was... they wouldn't have to say it...