Under what circumstances is the Scripture the 'Word of God'

[Darren Court]

OK I see where we are coming unstuck (I think)

There is a difference between the inspired recording of an event in Scripture and the nature of the event itself.

Jesus said to Peter 'get behind me Satan' addressing the source of Peter's uttered words.

Peter was not speaking God's Word at the time.

The fact that Peters words are recorded in scripture doesn't change the fact that they were inspired by Satan in the moment.

The same applies to the temptation of Jesus.

But folks have this weird belief that all of a sudden whatever is recorded in Scripture must have been God's Word initially in the historic moment - this is folly.

The reason why they believe this is that they have a wrong understanding of the nature of Scripture and have elevated Scripture to divine status not realising that Scripture and God's Eternal Word are distinct.

Scripture is a record of some of the Word's of God that He may breath on for our understanding.

Actually I think I see it slightly but significantly differently.
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What you quite well described is man's viewpoint. Since Satan was motivated to temp Christ, his words couldn't possibly be God's intention, desire or inspired. Makes perfect sense from man's viewpoint because we are time constrained. Time works moment by moment in one sequential direction.
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That is not how God sees time and we struggle to understand some of the most simplest elements of this truth. Such that God being present in all time at the same time really doesn't compute. Put it this way, God is no more with me in this moment than He is also with Christ being tempted by Satan or for that matter with Adam and Eve having the discussion about their sin...... and more importantly than He is with us all at the end of time judging our actions, our words, etc.
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This means to God, Satan's words were as much in the past before he spoke them as they were in future. This is huge because it means there is no moment when from God's point of view, things were decided. He didn't decide to include Satan's words after Satan spoke them but before Satan fell from heaven. He knew the words Satan would speak, either through through foreknowledge or control, it doesn't matter. He knew Satan would say them and He planned their inclusion in His book in much the same way He knew the words Paul would write and they were to be included, etc.
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To clarify further, I would ask you to consider two things.... i) Did everything Paul write get included in scripture? I'm pretty sure it didn't... not least because he seemed prolific in writing and there's not much for all the churches he set up ii) Did Paul know the words he was writing were divinely inspired? I'm not sure he did, because he never actually says so and I think we'd expect him to say so if he knew. The point is I don't think Paul knew he was writing God's "living and active" word, which beggars the question... Did God make Paul write the words or did God know the words Paul would write and ensure only those He forechose to be scripture? I don't think it matters which, because God takes ownership of those words in His book, just like He takes ownership of Satan's words.
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I want to end, if you'll allow me, on the fact that I'm not sure any of these has any real importance. Fun as it is to work through such matters to discern more about God and His character, I think scripture stands to point our focus on the matters in hand. In this case on how Satan tempted Christ using desire, pride and vanity through scripture, and how those are His tactics against us.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Actually I think I see it slightly but significantly differently.
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What you quite well described is man's viewpoint. Since Satan was motivated to temp Christ, his words couldn't possibly be God's intention, desire or inspired. Makes perfect sense from man's viewpoint because we are time constrained. Time works moment by moment in one sequential direction.
.
That is not how God sees time and we struggle to understand some of the most simplest elements of this truth. Such that God being present in all time at the same time really doesn't compute. Put it this way, God is no more with me in this moment than He is also with Christ being tempted by Satan or for that matter with Adam and Eve having the discussion about their sin...... and more importantly than He is with us all at the end of time judging our actions, our words, etc.
.
This means to God, Satan's words were as much in the past before he spoke them as they were in future. This is huge because it means there is no moment when from God's point of view, things were decided. He didn't decide to include Satan's words after Satan spoke them but before Satan fell from heaven. He knew the words Satan would speak, either through through foreknowledge or control, it doesn't matter. He knew Satan would say them and He planned their inclusion in His book in much the same way He knew the words Paul would write and they were to be included, etc.
.
To clarify further, I would ask you to consider two things.... i) Did everything Paul write get included in scripture? I'm pretty sure it didn't... not least because he seemed prolific in writing and there's not much for all the churches he set up ii) Did Paul know the words he was writing were divinely inspired? I'm not sure he did, because he never actually says so and I think we'd expect him to say so if he knew. The point is I don't think Paul knew he was writing God's "living and active" word, which beggars the question... Did God make Paul write the words or did God know the words Paul would write and ensure only those He forechose to be scripture? I don't think it matters which, because God takes ownership of those words in His book, just like He takes ownership of Satan's words.
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I want to end, if you'll allow me, on the fact that I'm not sure any of these has any real importance. Fun as it is to work through such matters to discern more about God and His character, I think scripture stands to point our focus on the matters in hand. In this case on how Satan tempted Christ using desire, pride and vanity through scripture, and how those are His tactics against us.

Mmmm.... your hypotheses doesn't ring true to me...

I stand by what I said.

And these matters are very important.

We have folks on CF thinking that if they quote Scripture something 'magic' happens to support their deception.

The missing factor in the equation is the Holy Spirit.

Without His action in the moment of delivering His Word through Scripture the end result is fruitless at best and likely deceptive.

The word that will not return void is His Eternal Word that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Just reading off the page to justify your own opinions doesn't cut it.

Which reminds me - God hates the prophets who steal one another's words.

What God wants from us is fresh revelation that stems from a healthy communion with Him and openness to the Holy Spirit.

Second hand stuff from the internet or the cooky cutter stuff that we so often hear over our pulpits doesn't cut it.

Wake up folks - there is no shortcut to spirituality - intense desire for Him that leads to total commitment is the only path to truth.

Fresh revelation God Loves.

 

[Clare73]

Okay, if you intend to ignore what I wrote and insult me, fair enough!

What did I misread?

The context is the word of God, right. . .which is all Scripure, right?

 

[Darren Court]

Mmmm.... your hypotheses doesn't ring true to me...

I stand by what I said.

And these matters are very important.

We have folks on CF thinking that if they quote Scripture something 'magic' happens to support their deception.

The missing factor in the equation is the Holy Spirit.

Without His action in the moment of delivering His Word through Scripture the end result is fruitless at best and likely deceptive.

The word that will not return void is His Eternal Word that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Just reading off the page to justify your own opinions doesn't cut it.

Which reminds me - God hates the prophets who steal one another's words.

What God wants from us is fresh revelation that stems from a healthy communion with Him and openness to the Holy Spirit.

Second hand stuff from the internet or the cooky cutter stuff that we so often hear over our pulpits doesn't cut it.

Wake up folks - there is no shortcut to spirituality - intense desire for Him that leads to total commitment is the only path to truth.

Fresh revelation God Loves.

Alas I must be describing things badly because nothing you state here do I disagree with!
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In my original post I was pretty clear that we cannot find truth anywhere, even in scripture, unless the Holy Spirit guides us to it. That is why it is "living and active".

 

[Darren Court]

What did I misread?

The context is the word of God, right. . .which is all Scripure, right?

Well, firstly I didn't say misread! I said ignore what I wrote and insult me!
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In response to my points with scripture you replied....See Mt 22:29, Lk 24:27, 45, Jn 10:35, 2:22, 5:39, 7:42..
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So the first is "Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God"
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Thank you for judgement. You perhaps will understand that's an insult and just your opinion, right?
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I think it's pretty obvious... ignore what I wrote and insulted.... irrespective of the subject or the context.

 

[Clare73]

Well, firstly I didn't say misread! I said ignore what I wrote and insult me!
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In response to my points with scripture you replied....See Mt 22:29, Lk 24:27, 45, Jn 10:35, 2:22, 5:39, 7:42..
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So the first is "Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God"
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Thank you for judgement. You perhaps will understand that's an insult and just your opinion, right?
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I think it's pretty obvious... ignore what I wrote and insulted.... irrespective of the subject or the context.

Are you reading from an I-phone or a laptop?
Can you see your statement I highlighted to which I was responding regarding there being no Scripture when Jesus made those statements?
My response was to present Scriptures where Jesus had actually referred to the Scriptures of which you stated there were none.

 

[Darren Court]

Are you reading from an I-phone or a laptop?
Can you see your statement I highlighted to which I was responding regarding there being no Scripture when Jesus made those statements?
My response was to present Scriptures where Jesus had actually referred to the Scriptures of which you stated there were none.

Oh not that didn't come out at all. All I could see was the scriptures you posted but I get what you're saying now.
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I thought in saying "At the point Christ said these words there was no scripture" there would be an understanding that by "scripture" I meant "scripture" as we see scripture now.... ie. that include the OT books beyond the Torah and the NT books that were either not available (NT) or not (canonised / recognised as divinely inspired - (OT)). Perhaps I should have made that clearer.
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Clearly "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" refer prophetically to the books not considered scripture or not yet written... but my point was and is that this quote from Christ does not confine words that come from the mouth of God to scripture.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

What I notice is that when someone doesn't agree with someone else's interpretation of scripture and or the particular doctrine they're dedicated to, they'll pull the Word of God card.

That you're going against the Holy God Breathed Word of God.

Basically it's their way of saying that by disagreeing with their interpretation and or doctrine, you're committing sacrilege by calling God a liar and so on.

That's true in some situations, but also all too often i see posts like "is there more than one gospel?" -_- or what about "Why we know the day or the hour" or "Do we need to ask for forgiveness?"

Things that are clearly answered by scripture and i find people end up needing to reply with spiritual milk rather than solid food. It almost feels like sometimes we are reinventing the wheel and building up basic principles of Christianity because people feel the need to question what scripture clearly states.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What you say all sounds good but you choose not to process some of the finer points I raise.

Unless I misunderstand you also want to include the Bible as part of the trinity.

Our differences stem from not having an agreed definition on what God's Word is.

The way I see it is that in the beginning before creation (no bibles) The father spoke the creation into being with the Son and the Spirit.

The trinity in action without and Scripture.

Further more His Word in Jesus sustains the creation by the Holy Spirits Power.

This all happened before God created man or human language or written word.

So can we agree that His Word pre-existed the Bible and later came in human life ?

When I worship God and praise Him I am mindfull of His Loving sustaining Word which always was even before creation began.

I believe that you'd like me to comment where Scripture is silent.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What you say all sounds good but you choose not to process some of the finer points I raise.

Unless I misunderstand you also want to include the Bible as part of the trinity.

Our differences stem from not having an agreed definition on what God's Word is.

The way I see it is that in the beginning before creation (no bibles) The father spoke the creation into being with the Son and the Spirit.

The trinity in action without and Scripture.

Further more His Word in Jesus sustains the creation by the Holy Spirits Power.

This all happened before God created man or human language or written word.

So can we agree that His Word pre-existed the Bible and later came in human life ?

When I worship God and praise Him I am mindfull of His Loving sustaining Word which always was even before creation began.

I do not dwell on this issue at hand. My only intent in engaging in this thread was to make certain that no one be taken by a doctrine or notion that we Christians live outside the Bible. We are confined to the Scriptures.
The Scriptures are precious to us. God calls and predestines some according to His own will and purpose to grant them saving faith by opening their eyes to understand the Scriptures. We who are Christians do not know which unbelievers will be called to believe at some point in the future.
Since the precious words of Scripture are the message we are commissioned to bring to the unbelievers contain eternal life to all God calls, His elect, we should not look down on those who quote from it unless it is so very obvious they have impure motives. Do you know who is elect and still growing in the faith who may wrongly quote out of his own error? Do you know if they have impure motives? Even Peter had to be corrected as seen in Galatians.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I believe that you'd like me to comment where Scripture is silent.

Scripture is not silent about the Trinity.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I do not dwell on this issue at hand. My only intent in engaging in this thread was to make certain that no one be taken by a doctrine or notion that we Christians live outside the Bible. We are confined to the Scriptures.
The Scriptures are precious to us. God calls and predestines some according to His own will and purpose to grant them saving faith by opening their eyes to understand the Scriptures. We who are Christians do not know which unbelievers will be called to believe at some point in the future.
Since the precious words of Scripture are the message we are commissioned to bring to the unbelievers contain eternal life to all God calls, His elect, we should not look down on those who quote from it unless it is so very obvious they have impure motives. Do you know who is elect and still growing in the faith who may wrongly quote out of his own error? Do you know if they have impure motives? Even Peter had to be corrected as seen in Galatians.

Yes I agree however we have some on CF aligned with sects or cults who peddle a false Gospel.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes I agree however we have some on CF aligned with sects or cults who peddle a false Gospel.

That is why we quote Scripture in answer to them...to correct and instruct. In this way all are edified

 

[Aaron112]

"Edified" ? Who actually is edified, and who is not ?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

"Edified" ? Who actually is edified, and who is not ?

Believers, for that is their purpose...fight false doctrine or learn how...as well as unbelievers who can be instructed

 

[Carl Emerson]

That is why we quote Scripture in answer to them...to correct and instruct. In this way all are edified

It takes a bit more than just quoting scripture...

 

[throughfiierytrial]

It takes a bit more than just quoting scripture...

Just quoting Scripture? It's one primary reason for Scripture according to Timothy

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just quoting Scripture? It's one primary reason for Scripture according to Timothy

Yes... However, Paul and Timothy were anointed by God to deliver the Truth and many on CF are not.

As I said, it takes more than just quoting scripture to present an inspired response.

That is the message of this thread.

Exchanging bible verses can be fruitless.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes... However, Paul and Timothy were anointed by God to deliver the Truth and many on CF are not.

As I said, it takes more than just quoting scripture to present an inspired response.

That is the message of this thread.

Exchanging bible verses can be fruitless.

Reflect on Romans 7:14...
The Word also is spiritual...the LAW is spiritual and is part of Scripture, we can then compare what's going on here...but we are slaves to sin in the flesh. This is the unbelievers condition...w/o the Spirit...the Word issued by the unbeliever stands firm..it is spiritual. This is not to say that the unbeliever will prove his postulations with the word.
II Timothy 3:16

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you agreeing mypost #219 or not?