Under what circumstances is the Scripture the 'Word of God'

[Carl Emerson]

l 3


Yes, but is "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2Co 3:6) referring to the law written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit who gives life,
or the written code which kills all who are under it (Gal 3:10)?

I am inclined to think it is more than just the Law written by the Holy Spirit because His indwelling presence also reveals His nature to us. Walking in the Spirit is more than following rules but hearing and following Him.

 

[Clare73]

I am inclined to think it is more than just the Law written by the Holy Spirit because His indwelling presence also reveals His nature to us. Walking in the Spirit is more than following rules but hearing and following Him.

"The letter" refers to the written code, not to the law written on our hearts.
So how does "the letter kill"?

Keeping in mind "the letter" refers to the law in contrast to the inward operation of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant (Ro 2:27, 29, 7:6).

 

[Carl Emerson]

We are described as living letters.

His indwelling presence speaks of His character and His purpose. This is a letter to the world.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The letter kills refers to the consequences of the Law which mankind couldn't keep and the outcome was being under the curse of death.

 

[Clare73]

The letter kills refers to the consequences of the Law which mankind couldn't keep and the outcome was being under the curse of death.

Yes, and that is its meaning in 2 Co 3:6, but not in 2 Co 3:3 (post #169).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, and that is its meaning in 2 Co 3:6, but not in 2 Co 3:3 (post #169).

Yes we agree on this but the living letter is little spoken about.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Sorry you feel that way...

I think you will struggle to get support for the suggestion that the Logos in John is the Scripture rather than an eternal person of the Trinit

Sorry you feel that way...

I think you will struggle to get support for the suggestion that the Logos in John is the Scripture rather than an eternal person of the Trinity..

John 17:17: Hebrews 4:12...sounds like Logos to me

 

[Carl Emerson]

@throughfiierytrial

You seem to avoid the point...

In John 1 we are introduced to the Logos which is the Christ not the Scriptures.

Here it is for you to read again...

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him ]not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’”

Can you please respond to this point.

Do you agree that John is introducing Jesus not the Scriptures.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

@throughfiierytrial

You seem to avoid the point...

In John 1 we are introduced to the Logos which is the Christ not the Scriptures.

Here it is for you to read again...

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him ]not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’”

Can you please respond to this point.

Do you agree that John is introducing Jesus not the Scriptures.

I posted those passages...from my post... to you for your review. Jesus left us with the Scriptures and the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, opens our eyes to understand the Scriptures. The Word is eternal as Jesus states.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first the Jew, then for the Gentle. (Romans 1:16)
Jesus is that Word AND He is God. He gives us of Himself (that which we need from that Word).
As I've said from the beginning...the Word is sufficient for faith life and the Holy Spirit instructs us through the Word.
Now what you believe may be the same...I don't know.

 

[Darren Court]

Hi there,

This is a sensitive topic but one that needs to be raised.

It is a strong tradition to refer to the Bible as the 'Word of God'.

Some folks on CF tend to even use Scripture as a weapon - the 'Sword of the Spirit'

You may have experienced this - raise an issue for serious consideration and the response is a barrage of Scripture - often not really addressing the issue.

It is like the Words are presented as magic...

Can I suggest this is not what the 'Word of God' is all about.

Consider the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness - Satans weapon of choice was Scripture.

Was the 'Word of God' being manifest when Satan quoted Scripture?

Absolutely not.

In fact Jesus is the 'Word of God' and Satan presumed to tempt and hopefully deceive Truth Himself with quotes from Scripture !!!

So when is the Scripture 'God's Word' ???

When the quotations are being presented under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

All too often on CF we see a battle of Scripture and this should never be so - clearly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not motivating the contest, players are simply holding fast to traditional theology by human loyalty, while laying claim to 'God's Word'.

The sad fact is that God's Word - Jesus is not being understood.

Jesus is sustaining all of creation as the Word of God.

Jesus is indwelling true believers and He is not silent.

The Word of God is vastly more magnificent than we could ask or think, He is supreme, we owe Him our all.

He is much more widely active than just enabling us to understand and present Scripture fruitfully. Yet some believe the Scripture is His only opportunity to be heard.

Bow down to the Living Word - Jesus

Reflect on the enormity of His power and splendour.

He wants to bring alive the words written in His special book.

Then to you it will truely be, in that moment, the Word of God.

Pardon me for joining this party late and not reading through all the thread (I read a lot) but for what it's worth here's my view.....
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All scripture is the "word of God"... all of it! Even the bits where the devil tempts Christ............ BEAR WITH ME!
(but note scripture isn't all of the "word of God" because God isn't constrained by scripture)
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I think we need to understand that even though the words written are God's intended words and that they the "word of God", man cannot read them, understand and apply them without God's guidance/revelation. There are various scriptures that support this...

i) "and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." You can read the bible back and forth ten million times, be the greatest Greek and Hebrew scholar and have the highest intellectual ability, but UNLESS the Holy Spirit reveals to you the truth of who Christ is, you will never see it.
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This is an important truth. The words on the page are the "word of God" but they cannot be received as God's words without God's guidance.

ii) "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth" If we can find truth on our own, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit to guide us. The clear implication here is that we cannot find truth without being guided.... and it's important to note, we are "guided". To be guided we need to chose to follow. The Holy Spirit isn't going to force us to see truth.
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iii) "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Initially looking at this verse, it doesn't seem to help discerning if scripture is the "word of God". Consider though that the "word of God" is "living and active" and has a purpose. Since the dawn of scripture God has been speaking to men, (His word) through scripture, thus at the very least some of scripture is the word of God that the Holy Spirit uses to lead men into truth.
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iv) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” If the previous verse tells us that at least some of scripture is God's word, this one indicates all of it is. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED. To argue that some of scripture is not "the word of God" means to argue that "all God breathed scripture" isn't God speaking.
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The problem though is that men take the words on the pages of scripture and do all kinds of fruity things with them.
i) Misinterpret
ii) Misunderstand
iii) Twist to suit purpose
iv) Select words they like
v) Ignore words they don't like
vi) Take out of context
etc.

Does this mean that the words themselves are flawed? Absolutely not!
Does it mean that the words are not the "word of God"? No, not all. Every single word God has uttered can be corrupted by sinful man.
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On a last point, Jesus said " ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" Did Jesus mean scripture? Man cannot live without scripture? No, clearly not. At the point Christ said these words there was no scripture and indeed the events of the NT scripture had not even happened. It means that the words that come "from the mouth of God" are not entirely contained within scripture. So even though, all scripture is "the word of God", the "word of God" is not all scripture. God can speak without using scripture and what God speaks "comes from the mouth of God" and is "the word of God".
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Side note .. this is where some people seem to argue that God only speaks directly to men and that scripture is some sort of secondary and only partial tool. God instructed scripture to be written and stamped within scripture the reasons for this (like teaching, rebuking and equipping for every good work) and important precepts (like God never contradicts Himself). It means that whilst God is not restricted to using scripture to speak, He does most often... and I suspect the reason is quite obvious. People earnestly following His instruction to diligently search the scriptures are obeying Him and people waiting for God to speak without searching the scriptures aren't!

 

[Clare73]

Pardon me for joining this party late and not reading through all the thread (I read a lot) but for what it's worth here's my view.....

All scripture is the "word of God"... all of it! Even the bits where the devil tempts Christ............ BEAR WITH ME!
(but note scripture isn't all of the "word of God" because God isn't constrained by scripture)

I think we need to understand that even though the words written are God's intended words and that they the "word of God", man cannot read them, understand and apply them without God's guidance/revelation. There are various scriptures that support this...

i) "and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." You can read the bible back and forth ten million times, be the greatest Greek and Hebrew scholar and have the highest intellectual ability, but UNLESS the Holy Spirit reveals to you the truth of who Christ is, you will never see it.

This is an important truth. The words on the page are the "word of God" but they cannot be received as God's words without God's guidance.

ii) "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth" If we can find truth on our own, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit to guide us. The clear implication here is that we cannot find truth without being guided.... and it's important to note, we are "guided". To be guided we need to chose to follow. The Holy Spirit isn't going to force us to see truth.

iii) "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Initially looking at this verse, it doesn't seem to help discerning if scripture is the "word of God". Consider though that the "word of God" is "living and active" and has a purpose. Since the dawn of scripture God has been speaking to men, (His word) through scripture, thus at the very least some of scripture is the word of God that the Holy Spirit uses to lead men into truth.

iv) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” If the previous verse tells us that at least some of scripture is God's word, this one indicates all of it is. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED. To argue that some of scripture is not "the word of God" means to argue that "all God breathed scripture" isn't God speaking.

The problem though is that men take the words on the pages of scripture and do all kinds of fruity things with them.
i) Misinterpret
ii) Misunderstand
iii) Twist to suit purpose
iv) Select words they like
v) Ignore words they don't like
vi) Take out of context
etc.

Does this mean that the words themselves are flawed? Absolutely not!
Does it mean that the words are not the "word of God"? No, not all. Every single word God has uttered can be corrupted by sinful man.

On a last point, Jesus said " ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" Did Jesus mean scripture? Man cannot live without scripture? No, clearly not. At the point Christ said these words there was no scripture

See Mt 22:29, Lk 24:27, 45, Jn 10:35, 2:22, 5:39, 7:42.

and indeed the events of the NT scripture had not even happened. It means that the words that come "from the mouth of God" are not entirely contained within scripture. So even though, all scripture is "the word of God", the "word of God" is not all scripture. God can speak without using scripture and what God speaks "comes from the mouth of God" and is "the word of God".

Side note .. this is where some people seem to argue that God only speaks directly to men and that scripture is some sort of secondary and only partial tool. God instructed scripture to be written and stamped within scripture the reasons for this (like teaching, rebuking and equipping for every good work) and important precepts (like God never contradicts Himself). It means that whilst God is not restricted to using scripture to speak, He does most often... and I suspect the reason is quite obvious. People earnestly following His instruction to diligently search the scriptures are obeying Him and people waiting for God to speak without searching the scriptures aren't!

 

[Darren Court]

See Mt 22:29, Lk 24:27, 45, Jn 10:35, 2:22, 5:39, 7:42.

Okay, if you intend to ignore what I wrote and insult me, fair enough!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Okay, if you intend to ignore what I wrote and insult me, fair enough!

Might have been a honest mistake... ???

Darren in reference to the use of scripture during the temptation, of course the account we read is inspired and God's Word.

However I was making a finer point.

When the event occurred Satan was not being inspired by the Holy Spirit when he quoted Scripture.

What then was being delivered was deception aimed to trip up Jesus.

In this sense the Word of God was not being manifest when he spoke to deceive.

In the same way here on CF folks quote Scripture but the Word of God is not being manifest as the claims being made do not align with His Truth.

Does this make my position more clear ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

I posted those passages...from my post... to you for your review. Jesus left us with the Scriptures and the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, opens our eyes to understand the Scriptures. The Word is eternal as Jesus states.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first the Jew, then for the Gentle. (Romans 1:16)
Jesus is that Word AND He is God. He gives us of Himself (that which we need from that Word).
As I've said from the beginning...the Word is sufficient for faith life and the Holy Spirit instructs us through the Word.
Now what you believe may be the same...I don't know.

What you say all sounds good but you choose not to process some of the finer points I raise.

Unless I misunderstand you also want to include the Bible as part of the trinity.

Our differences stem from not having an agreed definition on what God's Word is.

The way I see it is that in the beginning before creation (no bibles) The father spoke the creation into being with the Son and the Spirit.

The trinity in action without and Scripture.

Further more His Word in Jesus sustains the creation by the Holy Spirits Power.

This all happened before God created man or human language or written word.

So can we agree that His Word pre-existed the Bible and later came in human life ?

When I worship God and praise Him I am mindfull of His Loving sustaining Word which always was even before creation began.

 

[Darren Court]

Might have been a honest mistake... ???

Darren in reference to the use of scripture during the temptation, of course the account we read is inspired and God's Word.

However I was making a finer point.

When the event occurred Satan was not being inspired by the Holy Spirit when he quoted Scripture.

What then was being delivered was deception aimed to trip up Jesus.

In this sense the Word of God was not being manifest when he spoke to deceive.

In the same way here on CF folks quote Scripture but the Word of God is not being manifest as the claims being made do not align with His Truth.

Does this make my position more clear ???

Hi Carl
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I think I understand your point, at least in the way Christians misuse the bible. I think we all too often make our decision on what scripture means and then defend it for all our life, not realising that we are arguing from a human intellectual understanding and not Holy Spirit guided truth.
.
I am as guilty as the next guy, perhaps more so because I study a lot, retain a lot and, therefore, have learned a lot. I have learned though that even when I'm 100% right in my understanding, I can still be 100% wrong in saying so. You see, if someone is arguing about some aspect of doctrine that they cling to for dear life despite it being wrong, my telling them even with carefully and well crafted points, isn't going to make any difference unless they are led by the Holy Spirit... In other words, even my making the point is wrong if the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me. I find that hard when people's belief isn't supported biblically.
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In terms of Satan, his action and his words, I would definitely stop short of claiming such things were Holy Spirit inspired but they were certainly accounted and know by the Holy Spirit before they occurred. The same is true of many things in the bible, like he soldier that speared Christ's side, the one who flogged Him, etc. We clearly can't accept such acts were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit but they were certainly part of God's plan.
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That raises the issue of God's words. I think Satan's words are part of God's word where they are incorporated into scripture not just when they were written but even when they were uttered. Their inclusion is Holy Spirit inspired because they are in the bible. I've no doubt Satan has said a lot that's not been included and, therefore aren't part of God's word. The thing is that the Holy Spirit knew the words Satan would use before he used them and that those words would be included into scripture. In that sense, Satan's words were destined to be part of the bible before he was expelled from heaven. As a side note, I think it's self evident that Satan's words are not words we obey or consider in a positive way toward discipleship, but rather exposed as something we should learn should not be done or thought of. So for example, the testing of Christ is not portrayed as something we should do and that we should observe to understand how Satan works. " in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes." (Are we not equipped more when we understand how Satan will try to undermine us?)

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think Satan's words are part of God's word where they are incorporated into scripture not just when they were written but even when they were uttered.

We are nearly on the same page and I appreciate you patience with the topic.

If we are to be aware of Satan's schemes and avoid his deception then this clearly indicates that when he speaks it is not God's Word.

Can we agree on this ???

 

[Darren Court]

We are nearly on the sam page and I appreciate you patience with the topic.

If we are to be aware of Satan's schemes and avoid his deception then this clearly indicates that when he speaks it is not God's Word.

Can we agree on this ???

We can almost agree!
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If all scripture is God breathed, useful for... then we have to accept the words of Satan that are recorded in scripture are God breathed and useful or we have to argue that not all the words in bible are scripture. There's one word here whose meaning is contested but I think is secondary to our focus here. The words is theopneustos.. meaning God breathed. For our purposes here, I am happy to accepted God inspired, God instigated, God planned, or God breathed. The point is that God knew the words Satan would use and that they would be included in scripture.
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The idea that Satan isn't on the same page as God, which is what you seem to be suggesting by quoting we're to be aware of his scheme, isn't relevant. Were motive of the words quoted important, we could possibly dismiss huge sections of the bible. So for example we could probably dismiss the idea that any of the NT was God breathed because it couldn't possibly be Paul's intention that such scriptures were included as they weren't written yet.
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I will even go so far as to say that if God chose, He could compel Satan to say the words He wanted Him too, although I'm not sure I can back that up with scripture.
.
Of course, if we are aware of Satan's schemes we will not consider anything Satan says outside of what is recording in scripture as being God's word, that would be ridiculous.
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The point is that every single word in scripture, whoever spoke it, whatever, they intended, is God-breathed.
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On a slightly different point. We often get confused when we look at scripture because we take the wrong viewpoint. There are generally just two viewpoints... i) God's ii) Ours. They are, however, every different. I think this might be what's happening here. From God's viewpoint...
Satan's words to tempt Christ didn't become God's word the moment they were written down, they were God's word when Jesus told His disciples, they were even God's word the moment Satan spoke them because God knew He would speak them, what they would mean, that they would be recorded in His book. From our viewpoint, this doesn't make sense because we are constrained by time, which means when Satan spoke the words that only he and Christ would hear, we cannot conceive that they were God breathed. We cannot say or understand if God simply knew what Satan would say and it was precisely what God ordained or whether God made Satan say the words He wanted Him too. I'm not sure it matters because the point is they are part of God-breathed scripture!
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Trust that makes sense....

 

[Lost Witness]

accept the words of Satan that are recorded in scripture are God breathed

More likely they were recorded to show how the enemy uses scripture against us as was demonstrated when he tempted the LORD?

 

[Darren Court]

More likely they were recorded to show how the enemy uses scripture against us as was demonstrated when he tempted the LORD?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”

Are you saying that Satan's words are merely "recorded to show how the enemy uses scripture against us as was demonstrated when he tempted the LORD", meaning they are not scripture?

 

[Carl Emerson]

We can almost agree!
.
If all scripture is God breathed, useful for... then we have to accept the words of Satan that are recorded in scripture are God breathed and useful or we have to argue that not all the words in bible are scripture. There's one word here whose meaning is contested but I think is secondary to our focus here. The words is theopneustos.. meaning God breathed. For our purposes here, I am happy to accepted God inspired, God instigated, God planned, or God breathed. The point is that God knew the words Satan would use and that they would be included in scripture.
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The idea that Satan isn't on the same page as God, which is what you seem to be suggesting by quoting we're to be aware of his scheme, isn't relevant. Were motive of the words quoted important, we could possibly dismiss huge sections of the bible. So for example we could probably dismiss the idea that any of the NT was God breathed because it couldn't possibly be Paul's intention that such scriptures were included as they weren't written yet.
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I will even go so far as to say that if God chose, He could compel Satan to say the words He wanted Him too, although I'm not sure I can back that up with scripture.
.
Of course, if we are aware of Satan's schemes we will not consider anything Satan says outside of what is recording in scripture as being God's word, that would be ridiculous.
.
The point is that every single word in scripture, whoever spoke it, whatever, they intended, is God-breathed.
.
On a slightly different point. We often get confused when we look at scripture because we take the wrong viewpoint. There are generally just two viewpoints... i) God's ii) Ours. They are, however, every different. I think this might be what's happening here. From God's viewpoint...
Satan's words to tempt Christ didn't become God's word the moment they were written down, they were God's word when Jesus told His disciples, they were even God's word the moment Satan spoke them because God knew He would speak them, what they would mean, that they would be recorded in His book. From our viewpoint, this doesn't make sense because we are constrained by time, which means when Satan spoke the words that only he and Christ would hear, we cannot conceive that they were God breathed. We cannot say or understand if God simply knew what Satan would say and it was precisely what God ordained or whether God made Satan say the words He wanted Him too. I'm not sure it matters because the point is they are part of God-breathed scripture!
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Trust that makes sense....

OK I see where we are coming unstuck (I think)

There is a difference between the inspired recording of an event in Scripture and the nature of the event itself.

Jesus said to Peter 'get behind me Satan' addressing the source of Peter's uttered words.

Peter was not speaking God's Word at the time.

The fact that Peters words are recorded in scripture doesn't change the fact that they were inspired by Satan in the moment.

The same applies to the temptation of Jesus.

But folks have this weird belief that all of a sudden whatever is recorded in Scripture must have been God's Word initially in the historic moment - this is folly.

The reason why they believe this is that they have a wrong understanding of the nature of Scripture and have elevated Scripture to divine status not realising that Scripture and God's Eternal Word are distinct.

Scripture is a record of some of the Word's of God that He may breath on for our understanding.