UNDER THE LAW!

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
This whole issue was supposed to be settled in Acts chapter fifteen. Any questions?

I have no questions I'm about to release a study on Acts 15. The pro Torah crowd won against the Talmud crowd. The Torah FTW! Do you have any questions?

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
I’m glad you agree. Some posters will not agree, even with multiple witnesses from both the Law/Prophets & the NT.

God only has 1 law, and it is the law he gave to Moses, which you agree that the “law of Moses” is the law of God.

“God’s law” is modern, English phrasing. It didn’t exist in the Bible days, because they didn’t speak and write the way we do with the English language.

God’s law is the law of Moses

God’s law = the law of God

“the law” being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 9 is the pesky oral law that keeps popping up

I disagree. "God's law" was before "the law".

Romans 5:13-14
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Saint Steven said: ↑
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.

LOL! It was said in the Torah. By you quoting that verse, by your standard; you are presenting hearsay evidence. Either way your argument fails.

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That is so lame. - lol

Saint Steven said: ↑
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.

@HARK! has a point. They would hear the Torah being read... that’s how you knew what the Torah said, because you heard it.

faith comes by HEARING...

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
I have no questions I'm about to release a study on Acts 15. The pro Torah crowd won against the Talmud crowd. The Torah FTW! Do you have any questions?

Do I have any questions? Just one. Were the ancestors under Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
LOL! It was said in the Torah. By you quoting that verse, by your standard; you are presenting hearsay evidence. Either way your argument fails.

Nope. It is a quote. (see the quote marks?)

Saint Steven said: ↑
"You have heard it said..." = hearsay.

not under law · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Do I have any questions? Just one. Were the ancestors under Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

You would have to say, that if gentiles are required to follow Torah, Christ's disciples/the early church gave gentiles a licence to sin. Acts15:19 could not avoid that being true. God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't. Acts15:19 was not the reality anyway, years later, the Jerusalem church confirmed to Paul they were still not requiring Gentiles to follow any more laws than was asked in Acts ch15(Acts21:25) So the NT church must have given gentiles a licence to sin their whole lives if some peoples views are correct

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
@HARK! has a point. They would hear the Torah being read... that’s how you knew what the Torah said, because you heard it.

faith comes by HEARING...

Well, of course. But why did Jesus state it this way? Something very unique is going on there. If it is common, show me other examples. Thanks.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

not under law said:
You would have to say, that if gentiles are required to follow Torah, Christ's disciples/the early church gave gentiles a licence to sin. Acts15:19 could not avoid that being true. God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't. Acts15:19 was not the reality anyway, years later, the Jerusalem church confirmed to Paul they were still not requiring Gentiles to follow any more laws than was asked in Acts ch15(Acts21:25) So the NT church must have given gentiles a licence to sin their whole lives if some peoples views are correct

You didn't answer my question. Ancestors: under Torah or Talmud?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do I have any questions? Just one. Were the ancestors under Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I disagree. "God's law" was before "the law".

Romans 5:13-14
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

God’s law is an English phrase that is equivalent to the law of God...

not under law · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You didn't answer my question. Ancestors: under Torah or Talmud?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do I have any questions? Just one. Were the ancestors under Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

I dont think this post was meant for me was it?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

This argument came from the pro Torah party. It was against the the arguments of the Talmud party

I cover this topic in some detail here: Paul on the Law: Galatians 1

Galatians 1 (CLV)

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, Who rouses Him from among the dead), 2 and all the brethren with me, to the ecclesias of Galatia:" 3 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gives Himself for our sins, so that He might extricate us out of the present wicked eon, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen! 6 I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, 7 which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ."

Some who are disturbing them at the Church of Galatia.

Who would/could be disturbing them, and how?

They also want to distort Messiah's teaching.

Who would set out to do that? What would be their motive?

Which teaching(s)?

8 But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" 9 As we have declared before and at present I am saying again, if anyone is bringing you an evangel beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" 10 For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ."

Apparently this teaching comes from men, not YHWH. Apparently this teaching pleases men. Which men?

11 For I am making known to you, brethren, as to the evangel which is being brought by me, that it is not in accord with man."

This clearly has something to do with the teachings of men.

12 For neither did I accept it from a man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ." 13 For you hear of my behavior once, in Judaism, that I inordinately persecuted the ecclesia of God and ravaged it."

It appears that these men are Jewish. Paul is teaching the message of Messiah. He was Pharisee when he was disturbing Yahshua's disciples.

(CLV) Php 3:5
in circumcision the eighth day, of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, in relation to law, a Pharisee,

Yahshua rebuked the Pharisees for transgressing YHWH's Law because of their man made laws.

(CLV) Mt 15:1
Then, coming to Jesus from Jerusalem are Pharisees and scribes, saying,

(CLV) Mt 15:2
"Wherefore are your disciples transgressing the tradition of the elders? For they are not washing their hands whenever they may be eating bread."

(CLV) Mt 15:3
Now He, answering, said to them, "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?

14 And I progressed in Judaism above many contemporaries in my race, being inherently exceedingly more zealous for the traditions of my fathers." 15 Now, when it delights God, Who severs me from my mother's womb and calls me through His grace, 16 to unveil His Son in me that I may be evangelizing Him among the nations, I did not immediately submit it to flesh and blood, 17 neither came I up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I came away into Arabia, and I return again to Damascus." 18 Thereupon, after three years, I came up to Jerusalem to relate my story to Cephas, and I stay with him fifteen days." 19 Yet I became acquainted with no one different from the apostles, except James, the brother of the Lord." 20 Now what I am writing to you, lo! in God's sight, I say that I am not lying." 21 Thereupon I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 Yet I was unknown by face to the ecclesias of Judea which are in Christ. 23 Yet only they were hearing that "He who once was persecuting us, now is evangelizing the faith which once he ravaged." 24 And they glorified God in me.

Paul opens up this letter as a warning not to be pressured into following the Pharisees; but to follow the Law of YHWH, as Yahshua taught.

Paul on the Law: Galatians 2

In chapter 2 there is this little gem:

16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."

What law is this? Let's look at what Paul said in Romans:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Now I don't believe that Paul had mental issues. Obviously "Works of Law" is something different than the Torah.

Paul kept the Torah:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see it mentioned of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
God’s law is an English phrase that is equivalent to the law of God...

No. It is very specific to these few verses.
As was already stated. The Apostle differentiates it from, "the law" and "Christ's law".

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

not under law · Mar 27, 2020

You would have to say, that if gentiles are required to follow Torah, Christ's disciples/the early church gave gentiles a licence to sin. Acts15:19 could not avoid that being true. God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't. Acts15:19 was not the reality anyway, years later, the Jerusalem church confirmed to Paul they were still not requiring Gentiles to follow any more laws than was asked in Acts ch15(Acts21:25) So the NT church must have given gentiles a licence to sin their whole lives if some peoples views are correct

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
You didn't answer my question. Ancestors: under Torah or Talmud?

YHWH never called his people to follow the Talmud. Yahshua rebuked putting the Talmud over the Torah.

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
This argument came from the pro Torah party. It was against the the arguments of the Talmud party

You didn't answer my question. Ancestors: under Torah or Talmud?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do I have any questions? Just one. Were the ancestors under Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Dkh587 · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Well, of course. But why did Jesus state it this way? Something very unique is going on there. If it is common, show me other examples. Thanks.

Does it matter why? What would it matter if he said “it is written” vs “you have heard it said”?

there’s not some mysterious teaching going on here - He’s just talking to a culture which has heard these commandments, and expounding on them... it’s not that deep.

Matthew 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill(murder); and whosoever shall kill(murder) shall be in danger of the judgment:

Exodus 20:13
Thou shall not kill(murder)

Matthew 5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

HARK! said:
YHWH never called his people to follow the Talmud. Yahshua rebuked putting the Talmud over the Torah.

Peter was referring to the Torah then. Ha! -- Here's my question:
Why do you try to test God by putting the yoke of the Torah on the necks of Gentiles?

Acts 15:10
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Saint Steven · Mar 27, 2020

Dkh587 said:
Does it matter why? What would it matter if he said “it is written” vs “you have heard it said”?

there’s not some mysterious teaching going on here - He’s just talking to a culture which has heard these commandments, and expounding on them... it’s not that deep.

Matthew 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill(murder); and whosoever shall kill(murder) shall be in danger of the judgment:

Exodus 20:13
Thou shall not kill(murder)

Matthew 5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Exodus 20:14
Thou shalt not commit adultery

That's four of the six. Where are the other two?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2020

Saint Steven said:
1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

You're posting a mistranslation. It's two different words.

God’s law νομονas

Christ’s law (εννομος)

I cover this chapter in depth here: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9

UNDER THE LAW!

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