UNDER THE LAW!

[Saint Steven]

Under the law in which way? That phrase is used a few different ways...

You seem to be applying a presupposition.
Primarily it means the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[Dkh587]

The law was given as one whole law, agreed, but even Paul referred to the ''legalistic law''

So you accept the Christian is not under the law in regard to the law handed down at Sanai. Then we agree

Where did Paul refer to a “legalistic law”? He definitely referred to the oral law, but where did he say anything about a legalistic law? I’m genuinely curious.

 

[not under law]

Where did Paul refer to a “legalistic law”? He definitely referred to the oral law, but where did he say anything about a legalistic law? I’m genuinely curious.

As for zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness faultless Phil3:6 NIV 1984 Edition

 

[not under law]

Where did Paul refer to a “legalistic law”? He definitely referred to the oral law, but where did he say anything about a legalistic law? I’m genuinely curious.

Here is the up to date NIV version:
as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

However, discernment is needed. For Saul the Pharisee did not faultlessly obey the ten commandments did he(rom ch7)

 

[Dkh587]

You seem to be applying a presupposition.
Primarily it means the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The reason I ask, is because the whole world is “under the law” according to Romans 3:19

You just said God only gave the Law of Moses to Israel. How is the whole world under the law of God/Moses?

 

[not under law]

The reason I ask, is because the whole world is “under the law” according to Romans 3:19

You just said God only gave the Law of Moses to Israel. How is the whole world under the law of God/Moses?

May I offer an answer? Is the whole world not under the condemnation of the law if they do not have a saviour from sin?

 

[Dkh587]

May I offer an answer? Is the whole world not under the condemnation of the law if they do not have a saviour from sin?

That is a very likely and reasonable explanation for the use of “under the law” (in the context of how it’s used in Romans 3:19) - under the condemnation of the law (of God/Moses)

 

[Saint Steven]

The reason I ask, is because the whole world is “under the law” according to Romans 3:19

You just said God only gave the Law of Moses to Israel. How is the whole world under the law of God/Moses?

That verse does not even say that the whole world is under the law.

It says the whole world is held accountable to God.
Whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law. (not the whole world)

Therefore, whatever the law says, it DOES NOT say to the whole world, only to those under the law.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

 

[Saint Steven]

The reason I ask, is because the whole world is “under the law” according to Romans 3:19

You just said God only gave the Law of Moses to Israel. How is the whole world under the law of God/Moses?

Add a little context and things become even clearer.

Romans 3:19-21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[Dkh587]

That verse does not even say that the whole world is under the law.

It says the whole world is held accountable to God.
Whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law. (not the whole world)

Therefore, whatever the law says, it DOES NOT say to the whole world, only to those under the law.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

The problem I think you’re having is that you’re trying to fit your understanding of “under the law” into the context of how Paul is using it in Romans 3:19, but he’s not using it how you think he is. Going back to my original point of the phrase “under the law” being used in different ways, and not always meaning the same thing.

he clearly says that the whole world is under the law because the law speaks so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world is guilty. That’s why he says “the law speaks to those under the law SO THAT every mouth, and the whole world...”

The words “so that” connect what he is saying.

This is part of an overall theme is Romans 3 that Israelites & Gentiles are both guilty before God.

 

[not under law]

Add a little context and things become even clearer.

Romans 3:19-21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Absolutely:
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Acts13:39
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom6:14
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace Rom6:15
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. Gal3:23
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law Gal4:4
I am under the laws of my country. If I break any of them I face the punishment for doing so

 

[Dkh587]

Add a little context and things become even clearer.

Romans 3:19-21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Romans 2:13 Parenthesis mine, for clarity.

For not the hearers of the law(of Moses) are just before God, but the doers of the law(of Moses) shall be justified

Paul is not contradicting himself when he says “no one will be declared righteous through works of the law” in Romans 3:20.

works of the law is a concept tied to the adherence of Judaism & it’s teachings/commandments/rituals(the oral law). You can actually google this(I would encourage you to).

No will be justified by adherence to man’s laws(works of the [oral] law)

righteousness apart from manmade(oral) law has been revealed, being testified by the law of Moses and the Prophets. The law of Moses taught righteousness through faith.

 

[Dkh587]

Absolutely:
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Acts13:39
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom6:14
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace Rom6:15
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. Gal3:23
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law Gal4:4
I am under the laws of my country. If I break any of them I face the punishment for doing so

These verses are just further proof of when I said that “under the law” is used in different ways and in different contexts. It doesn’t mean 1 thing across the board.

 

[HARK!]

This deconstruction that I refer to started with the forerunner.

For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13

This says, "... until John.", then what? This indicates an endpoint and a beginning point in reference to the books of the Prophets and the books of the Law.

No it doesn't.

Matthew 11:13 John ended the Law of Yahshua?

 

[not under law]

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Acts13:39
How can you be set free from every sin? Jesus died for your sins/transgressions of the law. Hence you are not under law but under grace
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom6:14
When was sin Paul's master? When he lived under righteousness of obeying the law

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace Rom6:15
Why ask this? Because if you live under righteousness of faith in Christ, not righteousness of obeying the law, some may think they have a licence to sin
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. Gal3:23

The Christians righteousness is faith in Christ, not obeying the law

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law Gal4:4
Christ was born under the old covenant, when righteousness of obeying the law was in place
I am under the laws of my country. If I break any of them I face the punishment for doing so

 

[HARK!]

Add a little context and things become even clearer.

Romans 3:19-21
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Why didn't you include verse 18?

Excerpt from: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Lawlessness.

Obviously those verses don't describe those who have come to faith.

19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Paul makes it clear that those who break the law, are under the law; and that they'll be left speechless upon verdict. Those who break the law are under the consequence of breaking the law.

20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin, is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Should we then abandon the law?

Of course not! Works of the law is obedience to the law. It's against the law to speed in the U.S.. People who respect that law make a conscious effort to stay within the limits; however they inevitably get distracted sometimes and exceed them. Maybe they don't get caught; because their normal mode of behavior is to respect the law. YHWH sees all.

Now, one day maybe a law abiding driver does get caught. Maybe it was the first time in his life that he was ever distracted. Is that a defense for the violation; that he never broke the law before? NO! He wasn't supposed to break the law. Keeping the law is what was expected of him; but a righteous judge will take the driver's will to obedience into consideration, and extend grace.

21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), 22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" 25 (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God),

This passage pertains to YHWH's righteousness, as in his patience, he passes over former sins, for those who come to faith. Does this mean that the law is abolished? Of course not, When the judge shows grace for a misstep; it's not a free pass to continue in lawlessness.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

 

[HARK!]

Then in the Sermon on the Mount we see Christ referring to the law as hearsay.

No he doesn't. He's quoting the Torah.

 

[HARK!]

The Apostle Paul had a reputation as well.
Someone earlier on this thread had mentioned this passage below as proof that Paul was upholding the law. And verse 24 seems to indicate that. But look at the reputation of Paul as stated in verse 21. What did Paul teach about circumcision and about the law? We have the epistles to confirm all this. You can't toss out the book of Galatians based on one verse in Acts. (Acts 21:24)

They made him shave his head and pay for temple sacrifices to clarify any confusion about his obedience to the law; yet it seems some remain confused.

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem I think you’re having is that you’re trying to fit your understanding of “under the law” into the context of how Paul is using it in Romans 3:19, but he’s not using it how you think he is. Going back to my original point of the phrase “under the law” being used in different ways, and not always meaning the same thing.

he clearly says that the whole world is under the law because the law speaks so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world is guilty. That’s why he says “the law speaks to those under the law SO THAT every mouth, and the whole world...”

The words “so that” connect what he is saying.

This is part of an overall theme is Romans 3 that Israelites & Gentiles are both guilty before God.

You have it backwards. IMHO
A product of your own presuppositions. "Under the law" means one thing only.
It is one of two options. Under the law, or under grace. Take your pick.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[HARK!]

for no one faultlessly obeys that law

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless