U.S. police killed 1,129 people in 2017, but that’s not the full body count

[ThatRobGuy]

Pick any Country you want in that "first world, westernized country."

I've actually researched this topic rather extensively over the past year.

By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years

Police firearm use by country - Wikipedia

(there are numerous links that will show this same information, but for the sake of brevity, I just posted these two...)

It shows the complete list of countries and which ones have their police routinely carry firearms. When looking at those, and adjusting for population sizes, we're still light-years apart in terms of police force.

Keeping in mind that for the US, the number is about 1,000 per year on average.

Denmark: All police have carried their sidearm on-duty since 1965.
Total people killed by police per year: ~4
Adjust population size to compare to us: 231 (around 1/5th of our number)

France: Police are regularly armed
Total people killed by police per year: ~14
Adjust population size to compare to us: 70 (less than 1/10th of our number)

Germany: Police are regularly armed
Total people killed by police per year: ~10
Adjust population size to compare to us: 40 (less than 1/20th of our number)

Netherlands: Police are armed around 50% of the time
Total people killed by police per year: 3
Adjust population size to compare to us: 58 (roughly 1/20th of our number)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Poverty does not a Criminal make.

The data would suggest that the two are related... whether that shatters a particular narrative you had in your mind or not is inconsequential to the nature of the discussion.

It doesn't guarantee one will be a criminal, but it does foster an environment that produces elevated levels of crime.

Violence is a symptom of poverty, not a cause


https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/features/Link-Between-Poverty-and-Crime
The study found that poverty had a significant and direct effect on young people’s likelihood to engage in violence at age 15, even after controlling for the effects of a range of other factors known to influence violent behaviour. Even when taking account of a raft of risk indicators that would be expected to increase the propensity to engage in violence (including poor family functioning, lack of attachment to school, substance misuse, and impulsivity), and a range of protective factors that are known to act as preventative (such as strong and positive relationships with parents), young people who were living in a family where the head of household was unemployed or in low status manual employment and those who were growing up in communities with high levels of deprivation were significantly more likely to engage in violence.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Maybe the police should just start using harsh language when somebody pulls a firearm on them or threatens them with a knife or weapon. I grew up deep in the heart of Chicago also drove a tow truck on the west side on the third shift. I have seen it all. OP, where did you grow up? Do you know what life on the streets of large inner city is like?

Why is it these European nations have gotten their inner city environments to the point where it's relatively peaceful and police can handle most situations with non-lethal force?

What have they done (or are currently doing) differently than us?

 

[Ancient of Days]

Not sure but I do know two major things that cause the youth in inner city's to turn to gangs and crime. A lack of parenting(especially a lack of dads being around) and a lack of jobs.

 

[SummerMadness]

Not sure but I do know two major things that cause the youth in inner city's to turn to gangs and crime. A lack of parenting(especially a lack of dads being around) and a lack of jobs.

What do inner cities and gangs have to do with police shootings? Especially considering the fact that gang activity has been waning year after year, it seems you're trying to change the subject. I wonder what you're trying to make this subject about, which is not difficult to see when ignoring the statistics presented by another user?

 

[Redac]

Why is it these European nations have gotten their inner city environments to the point where it's relatively peaceful and police can handle most situations with non-lethal force?

What have they done (or are currently doing) differently than us?

There are a few different possible explanations. What do you suppose is the answer to your question?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There are a few different possible explanations. What do you suppose is the answer to your question?

Like I've noted before, there's a strong correlation between the effects of extreme poverty and violent crime, and European nations have done a much better job of staving offer the more extreme effects of poverty.

 

[bhsmte]

The inconvenient data point that nobody wishes to touch on when discussing this is the fact that nobody in the "Cops respond to dangerous situations, that's why the number is so high" camp seems to offer an explanation as to why our numbers are much higher (per capita) than every other first world, westernized country.

I've seen a few take the stance of "our police have to face more dangerous encounters, and more crime" used as a rationalization, but that still takes us back to "what are they doing differently than us that's producing a lower number of dangerous encounters and lower crime rates in the first place?"

Agree and is why, you need to take each circumstance, one at a time and not roll in raw data.

With 300 million people, police are going to be put in dangerous situations and when we have as many guns as people, this adds to the problem.

 

[Par5]

Agree and is why, you need to take each circumstance, one at a time and not roll in raw data.

With 300 million people, police are going to be put in dangerous situations and when we have as many guns as people, this adds to the problem.

I think that America having as many guns as people IS the problem!

 

[Ancient of Days]

I think that America having as many guns as people IS the problem!

Wrong! An armed society is a polite society. Actually we have ten times the amount of firearms as compared to people. The vast majority of firearm owners ARE law abiding citizens. The estimated number of murders in the nation was 15,696 and only 71% of that was a firearm used which puts it around 11,000 With a population of 327 million. Do the math...

 

[Par5]

Wrong! An armed society is a polite society. Actually we have ten times the amount of firearms as compared to people. The vast majority of firearm owners ARE law abiding citizens. The estimated number of murders in the nation was 15,696 and only 71% of that was a firearm used which puts it around 11,000 With a population of 327 million. Do the math...

The math has already been done and when you see the number of gun deaths in the US compared with other high-income countries, taking into consideration the countries populations, sad to say, the US has a very much higher number of gun-related deaths.
Gun Violence Archive gives a death toll in the US, for the first two weeks of January 2018 due to firearms, of over 450. Polite is not a word I would use to describe such a terrible loss of human life.
Gun Violence Archive

 

[bhsmte]

I think that America having as many guns as people IS the problem!

I tend to think, the main problem is an overall culture, of people willing to use the guns, on other people.

 

[Ancient of Days]

The polite part comes from law abiding citizens exercising their 2nd amendment rights to carry a firearm against those who would seek to harm them or their loved ones. Police aren't usually at crime scenes when the crime is being committed.

 

[StromRider]

Here are some things we do know. Police in European countries have much better training in terms of non-lethal situation management, and they have higher standards and better psychological screening for officers.

This is a huge factor. Many police in the US seem to have a Cartman like "You must respect my authority!!" attitude (apologies for those not familiar with the South Park reference). They escalate situations rather than calm them down.

The relatively lower pay compared to other first world countries also contributes to a lower quality of people joining and staying in the police. And of course, the lax gun laws in the US make cops fear everyone they encounter could be armed, thus leading to the quick resort to deadly force.

 

[Larniavc]

I believe, if a person is not doing something illegal or is a criminal they have nothing to fear from the Police in general,

Unless one is not white, of course.

Or answering the door.

Or on your knees/belly.

Or sat in a car.

 

[Larniavc]

I tend to think, the main problem is an overall culture, of people willing to use the guns, on other people.

I often wonder if this is the case in America: there is a cultural issue that causes a proportion of the American population who see violence as a viable solution for a range of problems.

Add to that the force multiplier of civilians armed with fire arms and you have a recipe for disaster.

Thank goodness there is so much money in them thar weapon fabrication plants to balance the scales.

And Tyranny.​

 

[TheBear]

Wow. 1,129 out of over 60 million police encounters and over 10 million arrests that year? That's what, .00002 percent of total police encounters and .0001 percent of all arrests?

 

[SBC]

U.S. police killed 1,129 people in 2017, but that’s not the full body count
Another piece of this analysis missing are those that are not killed, which is an important factor when considering instituting reforms. I am often struck by how different security and police forces act around the world, and in some cases, those countries are more dangerous. The United States needs to take a long hard look at how to reform and improve policing in America.

Another piece of missing information...
Repeat offenders.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Sistrin]

Any article which takes this intentional detour, quote:

"With President Donald Trump taunting his way into nuclear warfare..."

Is worth neither reading nor discussing, as the author in engaged in personal opinion promotion and agenda advocacy.

 

[Par5]

The polite part comes from law abiding citizens exercising their 2nd amendment rights to carry a firearm against those who would seek to harm them or their loved ones. Police aren't usually at crime scenes when the crime is being committed.

The very fact that you feel you have to have a weapon in order to protect yourself and your loved ones indicates that there is a problem. I fear that as far as guns are concerned, in the US, the genie is out of the bottle and as long as Americans continue to have this lust affair with guns and an almost religious adherence to the second amendment, I don't know what it will take to stop Americans killing other Americans.
Every country has violent people who think nothing of harming others. The UK is no different, but I have never owned a gun, never felt any need to own a gun, and don't ever want to own a gun. I don't know anyone who owns a gun, I don't even know anyone who is in a gun club and I can say, without fear of contradiction, that what I have just said applies to the vast majority of UK citizens.
I know that many of the firearm related deaths in the US are accidental and as a result of suicide, but the ease with which weapons can be obtained and the abundance of same has to be a contributing factor.
I have looked in disbelief at videos of very young children, watched by their parents, receiving instruction in the firing of high powered weapons that should only be in the hands of the military. Why parents would want their children to use something designed for the sole purpose to kill is beyond me.
Other high-income countries, where most people do not own guns, do not suffer the same death rate from firearms as in the US. Do you think that is purely coincidental?