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U.S. Babylon in Prophecy ?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by caddy, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Quite an interesting sequence of events and I have a few points to add

    plus the change of American leadership at the polls would introduce a number of new inputs, especially in the Mideast area and the attitude of the future US govt to North Korea.

    However, there is one point about Revelation 12 that has led to some theories.

    I am talking specifically about Revelation 12:5
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    There are three different interpretations about Revelation 12:5
    1- First view is Jesus's birth and I'm sure you agree with that and that is quite commonly believed.

    2- A minority group who desire the 144000 to hold a very special place
    assume the man child is the 144000 , which they find difficult to back up with scripture

    3- The third view which is very very deep is the appearance of Christ

    on Earth and his being taken to the Throne of God.


    I would like your reaction to the third view. In fact, this 3rd interpretation of Rev 12:5 has Jesus on earth for an unspecified period of time during a period of hardship for God's people
    without a single person knowing him. This is deep for he would have an identity, a career , I mean he would be living a regular life amidst regular folks with a name that no one knows but himself Revelation 19:12.


    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    ---He could be your next door neighbour. He could have a family, a job
    but God and Him would be the only ones to know who he is.

    This is very intriguing and God's endtime events especially those involving Christ would require deep analysis. Read it a number of times and see how you take it in. Why would this not be possible or possible depending on your views?

    Of course, Jesus after being snatched to the throne oversees the rest
    of the events in Revelation till he does battle with the Beast etc.
     
  2. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    No not possible

    For as lightning shines from esat to west so will be the comming of the Son of Man.

    Rev 12: was a History lesson for those new to the church.

    Nothing More

    there is a very easy way to date this chapter of REV:

    Look at verse

    9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth.

    Let us not forget it is Jesus who Reveals.

    Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    So this verse of Rev 12: happens as Jesus speaks after the 70 returned.


    Just The Facts
     
  3. Wills

    Wills Member

    286
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    Messianic
    You are confusing two things. CHRIST'S return does not start SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS ON EARTH-- that is a huge huge assumption that misleads.

    Christ's return is ONLY SENSED by humans When He is revealed to humans.

    Look at this JOHN 21:4-6 HE IS WITH THEM and speaks to them BUT THEY DO NOT KNOW YET who He is

    Do not say , well that is different----HE IS NOT RECOGNISED until HE CHOOSES TO reveal WHO HE IS.

    The coming of the Son of man is known by humans ONLY after humans are made aware of his PRESENCE. Then humans can feel his coming AND whatever effects it brings.

    2- READ LUKE 24:13 THEY WERE FACE TO FACE CLOSEUP AND COULD NOT KNOW

    JUST AFTER a mere 72 HOURS of his death His own disciples and yet THEY CALLED HIM STRANGER!!!!!
    CLOSE FRIENDS saw and spoke to him but COULD NOT KNOW HE WAS ON EARTH, ALIVE--- Read this carefully
    ----
    13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus,
    which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
    14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
    15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned,
    Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
    16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. ???
    17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye
    have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
    18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him,
    Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are
    come to pass there in these days?
    19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning
    Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God
    and all the people:

    HOW much more those of us living over 1900 years later who have no idea of him??

    BEFORE HE makes himself known and is revealed you would not see of any lightning plus the lightning is a lightning impact of truth and Righteousness, not storms and literal explosions which is another literal translation mistake

    WHAT ABOUT THOSE underground in a mine, in a submarine, or those asleep? If it were mere physical lightning they would not see it.
    Christ on Earth does not mean Christ has returned--THAT IS THE WISDOM you fail to see. The Holy Spirit is of Christ and God but it did not come with a Global storm.

    HIS COMING actually starts in the quiet manner as He left, AGAIN many miss this IMPORTANT word--- HE DID NOT LEAVE EARTH IN A lightning STORM OR an ASTEROID EXPLOSION -- only in the very quiet presence of a trusted few. Acts 1:9-10
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Member

    286
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    Of course Revelation 12 speaks of History BUT there is the wisdom of DUAL PROPHECY.

    You have confirmed it yourself. SATAN FELL FROM HEAVEN before Genesis --that is fact

    for He was evil in influencing the serpent GENESIS 3:1-6 Satan, the ancient serpent
    Revelation 20:2. THEN IN LUKE 10:18 DUAL EVENT HAPPENS --SATAN FALLS FROM HEAVEN
    Dual prophecy --one happened in the past, AND the Accuser is seen falling AS CHRIST'S MINISTRY grows IN THE FUTURE IN LUKE 10:18.

    The birth is ALSO dual and IT IS THE SAME CHRIST SO IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE

    Christ is no less Christ. Revelation 12 speaks a lot about history and some of the

    historic events are dualised eg Pre Genesis and 1st advent fall OF SATAN


    BY THE WAY, SOME PEOPLE SAY SATAN IS STILL IN HEAVEN BECAUSE

    THEY THINK REVELATION 12:7 is in the future. Prophecy is very deep in this chapter

    for No scripture supports Satan in Heaven at a time close to the TRIBULATION AS WE ARE NOW.
     
  5. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    Satan did not get kicked out of heaven with the fall of Man.

    he went before the Lord of Host with all the sons of God.

    Job:1:6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Job:2:1: Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

    No Jesus says quite plainly when Satan fell from heaven. It was not at the fall of Man.

    It was when jesus sent out the 70 who loved not their lives even though many where stoned some to death.

    these are the first fruits of the Earth.

    there is nothing future about rev 12: it is all history.

    Now for duality, duality is an absolute reality in prophecy.

    Many prophecy have what is called a minor fulfilment and a major fulfilment.

    THIS IS NOT A PROPHECY not all the Book of revelations is prophecy, some is just other stuff like a greeting to churches or a history lesson.
     
  6. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

    +7
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    Just the Facts is right except for the timing. Jesus saw satan fall as in a vision, remember, he could see the future. Satan still had access to Heaven at least before Christ came. Jesus also mentions seeing satan fall from heaven in Matthew when the witnesses returned. Satan could not have been cast down until the blood of the Lamb was spilled because, as we're told in Revelation 12, that is what they were able to cast him down by.

    Read Revelation 12 for the big picture. Satan was not cast from heaven until Jesus' blood was spilled. That and the testimony of the saints is what made it possible.
     
  7. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Try explaining everything from Rev. 12 in an historical context. Not all things in Revelation 12 have come to pass. The Woman is NOT Mary, it is Israel/the Jewish people.
     
  8. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    Well I think you are misunderstanding it a bit, or what I am saying at least.

    Michael goes to war with Satan and hurls him down to Earth (Matt and Lk) He peruses Jesus and the Saints killing Jesus first. Then by Jesus blood and their testimony the defeat Satan. Then he goes after the saints he peruses the woman (Children of Israel) but she dissipates into the Wilderness And Satan goes after the rest of her Children (Christianity)
     
  9. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Christian
    One point you must not overlook. Job 1:6 does not change when Satan fell from grace. Satan was allowed to present himself AS AN OUTSIDER---

    read Job 1:7 The Lord said to Satan, " Where are you coming from?
    Satan answered From going to and fro the earth and from walking UP AND DOWN ON IT.

    God does not ask Michael or Gabriel what they have been doing BECAUSE THEY are always doing His work. They do not roam UP AND DOWN EARTH doing their own intentions other than Godly actions as compared to Satan's evil actions.

    SAME in Job 2:1-7

    Satan was not a member of Heaven at that time. HE DOES NOT RESIDE IN HEAVEN--- HE was already a fallen angel. Repeat Job 2:4 Satan says Job will curse God to his face.. Satan actually wants that to happen.. that is not the conversation Michael or Gabriel would have with God about a human that God likes as Job was.

    What kind of angel was Satan typifying? Obviously an evil fallen angel.

    Job 1:7 God asks Satan" Where ARE YOU COMING FROM?"
    That is not a question addressed to an angel in the capacity of Michael.

    Satan IS BASED ON EARTH--- not placed in a Godly location in HEAVEN as Gabriel , Raphael etc who ARE SENT TO EARTH from time to time as Gabriel in Luke 1:18-20

    For Satan was NOT IN THE CAPACITY OF ANGEL MICHAEL in Genesis 3:1-7

    And Satan was not in the capacity of Angel Gabriel in Genesis 3:1-7.

    Are you implying Satan was an angel of God serving God as Michael etc when He caused the fall of humankind?

    If Satan was acting on the side of ANGELS MICHAEL, GABRIEL etc that is if he had not fallen from Heaven He would not have been an evil angel capable of attacking God and his creation in Genesis 3 and causing the severe fall of the entire human race.

    That was an act Genesis 3 comitted not BY MICHAEL but a fallen angel Satan , it was an attack AGAINST GOD and His creation, but God would not destroy Satan there and then, but would allow him free reign over Earth BUT God would PROVE to Satan THAT mankind could be redeemed, in spite of Satan's accusations and attempts to draw humans into sin thus getting company in his sentence to Hell.

    Who can argue that Satan was a Godly Angel on the side of God similar to Michael in Genesis 3:1-8? That is not supported by scripture.
    Gabriel did not tempt Eve. Michael did not tempt Eve. Christ did not tempt Eve.

    Satan fell before Genesis and was allowed to accuse humans till Christ's sacrifice.
    In the same way , some of Satan's angels, already kicked out of heaven TRIED
    destroying the bloodline of Christ in Genesis 6:1-4 A Number of Satan's already fallen angels thrown to earth and free to attempt to create evil.
     
  10. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Atkin I understand where you are coming from but look at this verse in Rev:

    10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Satan and his Angel where continually before God day and night up to their defeat and expulsion in Rev 12: which occurs right when Jesus said it did in Matt an Lk.

    Satan was both in Heaven and Earth right up to the point where he is defeated and cast down to the Earth by Michael then he is defeated by the actions of Jesus and the faith and testimony of the Saints her on Earth.

    They did not LIFT ONE FINGER TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, even though it meant their death.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING.
     
  11. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    hey I posted two post in a row please read my last post on page 7 thanks

    Don't forget God set out the nations Each to a Fallen Angel and he took Israel.

    This all goes back to the Angels corruption of Man

    The stories of Genesis and the serpent and Gen: 6 the Sons of God

    IS THE SAME STORY.

    Look at them

    Women interact with Angels (serpent or Sons of God) and eternal life is taken away from mankind. The word Mortal in Most Translations of Gen: 6 is not the correct Translation it should read CORRUPT for Mankind was corrupted.

    When God finds out he goes to the Angels through Gabriel and Michael and he says What's up guys.

    They give their story and God pronounces Judgement. They will be imprisoned and there Children High breeds will be wiped from the face of the Earth.

    They plead and a certain number of them are locked in the Abyss. To be let out in Rev 9:

    However there are still 200 Angels that are left in charge of the Nations and they are given 6,000 years to restore Gods peace and love to the Earth.

    After 4,000 years of WAR MURDER AND DEATH God has seen enough and Jesus is sent in.

    Satan and the Angels that are still running the world for 2,000 more years are cast out of heaven down to Earth. Where they will be defeated by Jesus and the Armies of heaven (murdered saints) at his return.
     
  12. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Christian
    Just The Facts
    We may be in agreement in principle regarding Revelation 12:10.

    The point I'm making is Genesis 3 forms the initial basis of any accurate analysis of Satan.

    Since Genesis 3 progresses to Genesis 6 and through the OT and the NT, it is
    important to understand what initial state Satan was in BEFORE GENESIS 3.
    Once Genesis is placed in the right perspective, the other NT and Revelation 12 verses fall in place.

    Step 1--- SATAN WAS AN ANGEL WHO HAD BEEN KICKED OUT of heaven before Genesis AND LOST HIS GODLY POSITION

    However, due to God's plan of proving Satan wrong, his destruction was postponed till later

    What are your views ON HOW SATAN FELL before Genesis?

    2-- I AM NOT sure about this statement

    ***********
    WHAT ABOUT THE FIRST WAR BEFORE GENESIS 3 for in that case Satan intended to
    attack God so he must have attacked with some force, NOT an inactive war attack.

    Secondly Satan had been weakened by NT as opposed to before Genesis

    and was not in full power by Luke 11 since he was now

    an accuser of humans, hence His fall in Luke may have been a dual fall WITH LESS

    VIOLENCE as compared to His war before Genesis.

    ****** Do not forget Revelation 12:8 AND SATAN (THE DRAGON) AND HIS ANGELS FOUGHT BACK. They DID NOT just roll over and fall out of heaven.

    In my opinion, Satan's first war was very violent AND A COSMIC Galaxial star wars type

    of attack. It had to be FOR THESE ARE COSMIC POWERS , not just human level weapons

    must have been far more severe than human designed cruise, tomahawk missiles etc..


    HOW DID SATAN BECOME AN EVIL ANGEL before GENESIS 3? That was the war described in Revelation 12:7 with later dual

    fulilment significance in Luke 10:18. Satan sealed in the pit after 70AD?? Rev 20:3?

    Of course He fell as the accuser in the New Testament era, but fell as A GODLY ANGEL

    BEFORE GENESIS hence his evil actions IN GENESIS 3:1-7
     
  13. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Let me ask you what was Satan's sin.

    What is the Story of the serpent about.

    Just The Facts

    Ps: did you read my post above yours on this page I posted two in a row and you may have missed it.
     
  14. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    I read your post above mine on fallen Angels of Genesis 6 etc.

    Yes they corrupted the bloodline .. trying to corrupt Christ's line.

    Again we need to understand Genesis 3 AND SATAN very well, else later conclusions

    in Genesis 6 could be in question.

    ----
    What was Satan's sin? I am going to start from one word that holds true --disobedience

    Satan disobeyed God AND WAS EVIL BEFORE GENESIS. Christ would never have tempted Eve in Genesis 3 Was it pride,insulting God's authority and challenging his omnipotence

    Was it attacking God to dethrone him? I have read Isaiah 14:12-14 as some interpreters refer to. I will neither uphold nor dispute that verse. What I stand by is disobedience.

    The common denominator is disobedience from Satan lead to his downfall

    It must have happened BEFORE GENESIS. Your views on this?
    __________________________________________________

    2- You asked for my interpretation of the Serpent story.

    It was disobedience to God's direct command in Genesis 2:16-17. Was it fondling in Genesis 2:16-17?

    Anything else without direct reference to Genesis 2:16-17 would not be scriptural.

    Whatever happened, whether Eve kissed the serpent, caressed his head, or

    fondled his tail, EVE DISOBEYED God , for IT WAS THE DISOBEDIENCE that caused

    God to punish Her... Genesis 3:11 HAVE YOU EATEN FROM THE TREE OF WHICH I COMMANDED YOU NOT TO EAT?

    WE CANNOT USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN the Bible to explain this COMMAND, HENCE THIS COMMAND IS NOTHING OTHER THAN GENESIS 2:16-17.

    ****You have knowledge of Genesis 3 and Genesis 6 hence you can answer these below
    1- What were the trees that God allowed Adam to EAT FROM IN GENESIS 2:16-17?

    2- Was EATING OF EVERY TREE, an action or actions THAT ONLY A MAN COULD PERFORM but not A WOMAN? Eve was not ALIVE in Genesis 2:16-17.

    3- What WAS IT THAT ADAM WAS ALLOWED TO DO BY GOD WITH THOSE TREES in Genesis 2:16-17, and were the trees dressed in clothes?

    Any explanation of the SERPENT story THAT DOES not go back to Genesis 2:16-17,

    would not hold up under any INTELLIGENT SCRUTINY.

    NOBODY CAN EXPLAIN THE serpent story WITHOUT EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHAT ADAM COULD do to those trees EXACTLY AS GOD said it in Genesis 2:16-17. Trees, backbones, limbs

    You would be saying you are God if YOU KNOW what Genesis 2:16-17 meant as God said it.


    What WAS IT THAT ADAM WAS ALLOWED TO DO BY GOD WITH THOSE TREES in Genesis 2:16-17??
     
  15. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    The statement above would be exceedingly tough to defend as scripture from God.

    You must realise that Abraham was from Iraq-a Chaldean. This is overlooked by vast majority of people. God's word is not just scanned at surface level.

    Why would God take Iraq , Kuwait as well.

    Genesis 11:27
    Now these [are] the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

    Genesis 11:29
    And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife [was] Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran,
    the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.30 But Sarai was barren; she [had] no child.

    Genesis 11:31
    And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went
    forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees


    Secondly, Israel was never a nation till WELL AFTER one man was named Israel in Genesis 32:28

    Genesis 32:28 YOU SHALL BE CALLED ISRAEL. He was not a nation, just a fellow with his 2 wives, 2 slave concubines and 11 kid boys.

    This was multitude of centuries AFTER Genesis 6.
    ISRAEL CAME INTO EXISTENCE over well over 1000 years after Genesis 6
    That makes your statement again untrue.

    One of the 12 tribe heads, baby Benjamin WAS NOT EVEN BORN when the term Israel was brought into existence in Genesis 32:28

    Benjamin was born LATER in Genesis 35:18.

    Check the generation ages from Genesis 5:1-32 added up to Genesis 11:10-26 and added up to the years from Genesis 11 till Genesis 32:28, taking into account all agesof ancestors as God lays out clearly.

    A couple thousands of years after Genesis 5-6, before A man Jacob , his two wives and 2 slave concubines were assigned the name ISRAEL in Genesis 32:28. Even then it took hundreds of years later for Jacobs seed to gather as a "nation" under MOSES well ahead in Exodus 12:33.

    The nations were initiated after Genesis 11:9, well after Babel's dispersion.
     
  16. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    It will??????????

    [8] When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men,
    he fixed the bounds of the peoples
    according to the number of the Angels of God.
    [9] For the LORD's portion is his people,
    Jacob(Israel) his allotted heritage.
     
  17. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

    +65
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    or

    13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    20: Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

    These princes are the Angels that have dominion over those nations.

    Just The Facts
     
  18. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Just the Facts,

    I was expecting an answer to this first question before the others.

    Are you avoiding this question? Without Genesis 2:16-17, you would

    have very little to stand on in explaining Genesis 3, 6 etc to anyone.

    I await your response to this important post.



    I have laid the post out in stages. You can go through each stage and
    support your views. Without deep understanding of Genesis 2:16-17 , your posts on subsequent chapters cannot be justified.


     
  19. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Messianic
    Ezek 31
    Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
     
  20. 7891b

    7891b Conqueror

    156
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    Okay, let's settle this. Satan fell once before, and he will fall again. How can Revelation 12 be historical, if it says Satan? Lucifer fell before the
    fall of man. Lucifer became Satan after he fell. It
    would be historical if it said Lucifer fell.

    Read Isaiah 14:12
    "How art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didest weaken the nations!"

    It says Lucifer fell, not Satan. This verse is about the first fall, when Lucifer fell, and became Satan.
    Satan will fall again, unto the Earth, in the great
    tribulation.
     
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