Originally posted by franklin
hi reformer, like I said in my previous post, I do rely on the writings of others at the same time I put them to the test of scripture as stated in 2Tim3:16...
I guess what I'm wondering is how do you test if what they say is true? I think it is difficult to read/hear something that appears to go against what I believe and then believe that I can address their views scripturally without the way I initially research my response being influenced by what I already believe (was that confusing or what?
). Oftentimes I catch myself pursuing a rebuttal rather than deeper understanding. I don't think I'm alone in this. I believe that to be part of why many people on this board discount my view "out of hand" before truly considering that what I'm saying might be true.
Scripture is the final authority to reprove any false teaching or doctrine. I don't claim to have all the answers and I do consult with others who have more spiritual and scriptural knowledge then I have.
Good to know. But, again, how do you determine which people you go to for answers? What if they say something that goes against what you believe? Do you truly search for answers or are you just looking for someone to reinforce what you already believe has to be true?
I get my revelation from the scripture. I have never been able to figure out what some preachers on TV are always trying to say when they make statements like that. I usually take them with a grain of salt.
That's probably the best way to take those TBN evangelists.
How do you know that what you believe is the truth?
To be honest, what I believe now goes against most of what I was taught/learned growing up. Through God's grace I was brought to a church that not only understands the Word better than any church I've ever seen, they put it into practice in their daily lives. Believe me, I resisted, at first, what I now know to be the truth. I can say that I have never seen anything, in any part of the Bible, that is contrary to what I now believe. Even from the start. When I first met the pastor, before I started going to that church, my initial response was, "Well, that's not fair. Why should some people
have to go to hell?" So he asked me, "Well, Don, what would be fair? That everyone go to heaven? What was it that God said were the wages of sin? Wouldn't it have been fair if everyone had gone to hell?" I thought about that and realized that, while definitely undesirable, man had, by his own disobedience,
earned eternal damnation. Even when I believed in "free will" I could only attribute man's transgression to man. So, I said, "I guess it would be fair if everyone went to hell." He said, "That's right. What's not fair, technically, is that some are spared that fate that they deserve and brought into a loving relationship with their creator. That is where we find joy. Knowing that when we were helpless to even turn to God, He restored, completely, the relationship between us." Now, my biblical knowledge at that point was very limited, even moreso than now
, and since that day I have never heard anything that can
faithfully explain God's Word as well as the doctrine that I live by, or try to live by anyway. I don't fall into the place that so many others on this board do where I have to say stuff like, "Well, that's just a mystery that God hasn't revealed to us." I don't mean to imply that I understand every part of the Bible, I don't. However, I know something that explains God's motivation for
everything He brings into the lives of His children (Christians):
1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification
Who is under consideration here? "Them that love God" ­ not a few whom God loves "The called according to His purpose,"
I have never implied, nor believed, that the elect are a select group of Christians, nor did John Calvin teach this. "Them that love God" are Christians. Christians are God's elect. What I have put forth for your consideration is that the Bible is clear as to the nature, and the desire and ability to serve God, of the fallen man. "Them that love God," Christians, only desire, and are only able, to serve God because
God has saved them. He did this before you or I did any act, like be baptized or say a prayer, that we believed would please God. I believe if anyone is a Christian now it is because God, prior to their desire to be a child of God, gave them that desire. In our fallen state we don't desire it, and as such, will
never persue a relationship with Him.
Do you believe that God selected us individually to be saved or lost or do you believe what the scripture teaches and that is those who accepted the gospel call would be saved?
I think you mean "do I believe
what you think the scripture teaches." To answer your question, I believe that those who accept the gospel call do so because God providentially selected whom He would save "before the foundations of the earth." I don't believe the Bible teaches anything contrary to that.
I choose to believe God's plan. Not some man made doctrine.
That's a good plan. However, only if you don't go to church, and don't associate with other Christians (which you obviously do), and don't discuss theological viewpoints, your understanding of scripture comes from your own interpretation and God's revelation. If you do all those things you will always be in a position to be influenced by other viewpoints and it basically comes down to whether they can sufficiently "persuade" you that their interpretation is what God's Word really says. As to not believing a man-made doctrine, different denominations have different viewpoints as to the interpretation of God's Word. I can only say that I know, with every fiber of my being, that what I am learning is the true interpretation of God's Word. If you don't feel the same, that's okay.
I have to stop here reformer, I'm pressed for time and I will try to get back to your other comments later, BTW, I appreciate our discussion on this subject.
I am also thoroughly enjoying our discussion. I look forward to addressing each others viewpoints.
God bless.