I will take time tomorrow to address the other questions that have been asked of me these last couple of days.
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Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
I said God's salvation work was completed when Christ rose from the dead. My decision to accept salvation and God's work of salvation are not the same thing! God completed the work when Christ rose from the dead. Whether I accept that work or not has absolutely nothing to with the work being completed or not.
If someone makes a house for you and offers it to you. the work on the house was completed by the house maker. The person who accepts the house has nothing at all to do with the work of making the house.
I admitted that myself, right there in black and charcoal gray.
I never once said anything negative about people saying "it's a mystery of God". I wa ssimply pointing out that your side had used teh same "God is a mystery" answer that I was using, so that no one would jump all over me for using it. Go back and read that post again. You'll see what I 'm talking about. Please, if you're gonna accuse me of "the pot calling the kettle black", use an instance in which I did actually do that!
The desires of the flesh do not originate in the nature (spirit) of a Christian.
The wicked desires are "conceived" when a Christian, upon receiving temptation form Satan and Demons, decides to ignore the pleadings of his own new nature, the Holy Spirit, and chooses instead to commit a sinful act.
There is a big difference between the nature and the flesh.
In fact, the flesh wars against the spirit (the new nature):
See that key phrase "...you do not do the things that you wish". That tells you right there that as a Christian, what you really want to do is follow God. The real you, the Spirit -your new nature- desires and calls out for you to do what is right in God's sight. The flesh sometimes struggles against that.
The Greek word interpreted flesh in all pertinent New Testament verses refers to the bodythe physical body with its frailties and vulnerability (to sin).
Originally posted by Reformationist
if you have particular objections to the beliefs espoused by John Calvin I'd be happy to address them.
How do you know it is NOT the Holy Spirit who helps that conscience realize there must be more to life?
.So boiled down, you are saying you got saved because you had righteous desires the others did not have. Will you credit these righteous desires to God? I dont think so, for if you did, then you would be sayimg God saved you by giving you righteous desires He did not give others
since you are still a sinner, are you not?
Mj white said:
In fact in Strong's, there is no greek reference to the word all. That means the word all isn't even in the original. But my parallel Greek NT shows the word pantas. The usual word used for all [pas -strong's #3956] can also mean any, every, as many as, throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
I say:Humble joe said:
"Everyone without exception"... Was he not talking about Christians? If he was, then I would imagine he would use a word meaning every Christian "without exception".
Humble joe said:
So, you came to a full and complete realization and understanding of the saving grace of God, and that you were destined for Hell, and you were shown that being a child of God is eternally more beneficial than going to Hell for eternity, and you're going to tell me that it would have been possible for you to reject that and "choose" your temporary indulgences in the flesh over eternity in Heaven???
Reformationist said:
How is it that we can be thankful and joyful for our salvation if we don't see the depravity from which we've been saved? How can we have compassion for the trials of others if we don't experience trials ourselves. How can we even begin to recognize the sovereignty and majesty of Him who rescued us when we were "dead in our trespasses" and unable to even turn to Him for redemption? Only when we truly recognize that we were saved, even rescued, from our own depravity can we begin to comprehend the magnitude of grace that God bestows on us on a daily basis that keeps us from succumbing to that sinful nature that we possessed for so long.
Reformationist asked:
have to ask you, and I hope you reply to this, if you believe God, the Creator of all things, including mankind, "desires" that "all" mankind be saved, and yet it doesn't happen that way, what is it that you're saying about God? Either God desires the salvation of "all" of mankind but has not the power to effect that desire, His Will, or, He does have the power to make it a reality but chooses not to, which, in my opinion, doesn't sound like love at all. It sounds like indifference. Do you think God could truly desire something but not make it happen? The response I often hear to this, and I hope I don't hear it from you, is that "God loves us so much that He left it up to us." Let me get this straight. God loves a person "so much" that He is willing to be separated from them for all eternity and condemn them to the pit of hell to suffer eternal damnation?
Mj white said:
You are like every Arminian i have encounterd so far in the respect that when i start probing into the WHY of your belief, you run. Am i exposing not a solid rock foundation but empty air?
What are you hiding? Why won't you answer my questions? And why do you answer them without openness? [like answering that those who died and never heard the gospel would get preached to them by Jesus, and then later, weeks later after being called on it, you qualify your answer to the point that it never really answered the original question.]
I can't make you answer, but i wonder why you duck so much.
Humble joe said:
I also issue that open challenge to you S2SNM, or anyone else that cares to take it. Show us Biblical evidence that humans are given "free will".
Reformationist said:
It's okay. You can call us reformed thinkers Christians. It isn't always necessary to group people within the recognized Protestant Christian sphere. For example, I don't go around calling all non-Calvinist Protestant Christians "you Arminianists."
Reformationist said:
Let me get this straight. You think that every time you sin it's because satan and his minions are tempting you? You won't concede that it's that very weakness and susceptibility of your flesh to submit to the inherent sinfulness that lived in you long enough for you to form "autopilot" responses to just about everything in your life?
Reformationist said:
God is not going to say, "Well, he was tempted by satan. What could he do?" He's going to convict your heart for your disobedience, not satan's. Is it sinful for you if satan tries to tempt you, or is it sinful if you respond to that temptation in a sinful way?
Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
Here we go, Ive got a backlog of questions to address, so I hope I dont miss any. Somehow, I know some of yall will let me know if I do.
Bur first, Ill ask Reformationuist a question. You said that f it happens, its Gods will. If it doesnt, its not.Is that right?
Well, heres the question. Do you sin? Does anyone sin? Is it Gods will that anyone sins? If it is, how do you explain the fact that God tells us not to sin on many occasions? Does he say Please do not sin, even though it is my will that you sin?
I think the Holy Spirit woos the conscience and thus influences the man into accepting Christ, but He doesnt force himslef on the man.
Yes, I do credit those righteous desires to God. He stirred my conscience, and my conscience and the Holy Spirit urged me to get right with God.
Others listen to their conscience an dlive moral lives, but do not give themselves over to a relationship with The Lord. Still others ignorevthe conscience and the Holy Spirit altogether.
Thats hwo it is with free will. He could zap the right decisions into our lives, but he doesnt. He lets us choose, so that he may be glorified even more when we make the right one.
Can I show you the words free will ?
Could I show you the concept in action? You betcha. What about the many times in the Bible in which people choose something opposite of what God wants?
I dont quite understand what youre getting at. Are you offended by the term your side?
Maybe were more in agreement than we think on this issue. I do not consider nature and flesh the same thing.
In a nonChristian, the sin nature drives and urges a person to rebel against God, for it is wicked.
Originally posted by calvinist
Perhaps it would be better to say that God did not create sin, but rather sin is an absence of God.
Originally posted by calvinist
Perhaps it would be better to say that God did not create sin, but rather sin is an absence of God.
Calvinist
[QUOTE]Mj white said:
quote:
since you are still a sinner, are you not?
I say:
My flesh still sins, but I am a saint, as is every born again Christian. Christians are never referred to as sinners in the Bible. The term sinner always refers to an unregenerated person; one who has not accepted Christ, one whose sins are not forgiven. When Paul refers to himself as the chief of sinners, he was referring to his life before Christ.
Read James 4 to see you are wrong. I do not wish to quibble over this point, but why do you make a blanket statement? Your flesh sins, but you dont, is that what you are saying? And is not every action you make still yet accountable to God? Are you going to say, that wasnt me, just my flesh? Do you still not willfully with mind and body purposefully do what you know is wrong before God?
mj white said:
AND the point I was making in asking if you were a sinner is to show that we still deserve damnation and still only escape it due to the mercy of God because of the work of Jesus.
AND as to the Law being on their hearts, that is why I asked you about them. That is why you told me about Jesus preaching to them. You are simply going around in circles and NOT addressing my point, which is why I say you are running.
mj white said:
How can those who never hear the Gospel be saved?
By listening to their consciences and obeying the LAW? The Word says, NO ONE is saved by the LAW, by OBEDIENCE. For if one could be saved by obedience, Christ died in vain. Read our past posts, Slavenomore, and you will see that this is the very question I have been asking you that you answered by saying Jesus preached to the dead. So it doesnt seem unreasonable to me to think you meant He continually preaches to the dead, SINCE many have died since He AROSE and never heard about Him.
[/QUOTE]quote:
Mj white said:
In fact in Strong's, there is no greek reference to the word all. That means the word all isn't even in the original. But my parallel Greek NT shows the word pantas. The usual word used for all [pas -strong's #3956] can also mean any, every, as many as, throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
I say:
Then we are reading 2 different sources. What I read said that in cases in which there is no qualifier after the word pas, that it means every single one, without exception
Read Strongs, you will see that you are wrong. What source are you using?
Reformationist said:
Does God desire us to sin? No of course not. I did not mean to imply that He did.
Reformationist said
Man, you sure do put a lot of emphasis on what we do to obtain our salvation
Reformationist:
You think this constitutes free will? The ability to be disobedient to God? What about the many times in which people want something to come about but because God has not deemed that it will happen that way, it doesn't. In fact, it oftentimes is contrary to what they want. Is their will then free to override God's? Or is their will subject to God's Will? Hmmm...let's see. Their will is subject to God's so maybe it's not so free. What do you think?
Originally posted by mjwhite
Sin is not a creation of God just because He created Law.
God does not sin does He?
Rather, the Law shows us how un-godlike we are.
That is why Adam had to fall, he wasn't perfect, he wasn't God.
That is why we still sin, we are not God.
Originally posted by mjwhite
I think we are talking around each other.
Then why did Aadam sin?
I agree 100%.
But I was speaking about we as Christians still sinning, which we do.
God bless.