U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

[mjwhite]

Dear all,

First franklin, I think you need to define what you mean by free will.

Second, closer, Just becase one cannot unsderstand or harmonize the two [free will and God's sovereign will] doesn't mean they can't harmonize.

Everything we choose is chosen from a will based in the context of our lives. Each life is different and so sometimes we choose differently or we chose the same but for different reasons. I might choose to root for a team because i like a certain player but my wife may be rooting for that tean because she likes the colors of the uniforms.

So as you advocate free will, what is the freeness of it?

But given that we seem to make choices based on our own internal reasonings [for the most part], we say we are free from outside interference. But that is so only because we are in the very context of those influences and basically unaware of most of them.

Even so, even if i agree with your assessment that we have a freedom to choose, there still remains a great obstacle for you to remove. It is WHY we choose God, why we trust Jesus. Now if you all would please give your own personal testimonies on those WHY's, I will be glad to show you WHY you chose to be a part of the body of Christ, and WHY those in hell are not.

And the truth of the matter [which is my quest to show] is that all the glory for our salvation belongs to God, for He is the WHY of our salvation, yet not the WHY for their damnation. I will hope to show that our boast is totally in the Lord Jesus and the Father through the Spirit and all because He IS the one who SAVES, and He SAVES all those HE loves.

Does His love fail? Does His love stop? Does He love those He has damned?

Answers please if you will and I am looking forward to your testimonies on WHY you trust Jesus?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by franklin
Hi reformer,  I don't see how you can say that the human race that God created does not have a free will when there is plenty of evidence throughout the bible of men commiting sin and rejecting God's gift many times in the scripture

Well, before we go further let's acknowledge a few things.  "Free-will" does NOT mean "the ability to make choices."  We were created in the image of God so, of course, we have the ability to make some choices.  Let's look at the words "free" and "will."  These are not dictionary definitions.  Feel free to obtain those if you are so inclined. 

Free - Not influenced by or dictated from a force outside oneself.  Does not take into consideration prior, or resulting circumstances.

Will - In the biblical sense this just basically means "desire."

There is no real earthly example of this.  Probably the closest example we have is a Pharaoh, or some other autonomous dictator.  Basically, what they said was the law.  However, they were not capable of making something happen by the power of their will.  If they had an enemy they couldn't just will (desire) them to be dead and, by the power of their will, make it just happen.  They had to send an army, face the rigors of travel and weather, and this process could, and did, often take many, many years.  And, even then, they weren't guarenteed a victory just because they "willed" it.  There are ALWAYS things that influence and limit our desires and abilities.  Now, in a biblical sense, if there is ONE thing that limits the choices you can make, your will is not free.  THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.  Think about this in a practical sense.  Is your "will" actually free?  Are you limited by anything?  Like finances, intellect, physical ability, laws of nature?  If you are, YOUR WILL IS NOT FREE.  The reason this is so important is because it relates directly to the nature of the fallen man.  After the Fall man was enslaved, in bondage, to his fallen nature.  What this meant was that mankind was totally depraved and unable to alter his separation from God.  Most Christians I know, regardless of their denomination, believe that man was totally depraved after the Fall.  As man could not do anything to reconcile his fallen nature with God's righteousness God had to do that for him.  That is shown numerous places.  Here is an example:

Ephesians 2:4,5
But God, who is rich in mercy,&nbsp;BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE&nbsp;with which He loved us,<SUP> </SUP>even when we were DEAD IN TRESPASSES,&nbsp;MADE us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

In fact, man did not desire a relationship with God prior to God giving him that desire:

Romans 3:10-18
<SUP>10</SUP>As it is written:&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who seeks after God.&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

This is the nature of the fallen man.&nbsp; Don't you see?&nbsp; "There is none who seeks after God."&nbsp; Total depravity explicitly signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total in principle, although not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be).&nbsp; No part of us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be.&nbsp; Consequently, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God's eyes.&nbsp; We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.&nbsp; Total depravity includes total inability, that is, being without power to believe in God or His Word (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7,8).

The Westminster Confession explains it this way:

"Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."

Now comes the proverbial "fork in the road."&nbsp; There are basically two camps with regard to the bestowal of God's grace and what that did to us, and for us.

One view is that God's grace allowed man to be released from their sinful bondage and put into a position where they could then "make the choice."&nbsp; This is called "previent grace."&nbsp; To choose no would result in a "re-hardening" of their hearts and eventually a total denial of His presence and authority.&nbsp; Basically, this means that though man needed God to regenerate him to the point where he was able to make a decision for, or against God and then the decision was left entirely up to him.&nbsp; This view is mostly followed by the belief that since we had to "choose" Christ, we can then, at some later time, "choose" not to be a child of God, a viewpoint also known as OSNAS, or Once Saved Not Always Saved.

The other view is that God completely regenerates (saves)&nbsp;a man, giving him a new nature, but not removing the old nature.&nbsp; That new nature enables man to please God, but does not inculcate him with the righteousness of Christ, as evidenced by our ability to still sin.&nbsp; God will continue to work in us the desire and ability to act according to His good pleasure, He will never forsake us nor is it now our nature to forsake Him, therefore we won't.&nbsp; This view is predominately followed by the belief that since we didn't do anything to receive salvation, we can do nothing to lose salvation, a viewpoint also known as OSAS, or Once Saved Always Saved.

This is getting long so I'll do another reply to address the verses you referenced.

God bless.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Well, before we go further let's acknowledge a few things.&nbsp; "Free-will" does NOT mean "the ability to make choices."&nbsp; We were created in the image of God so, of course, we have the ability to make some choices.&nbsp; Let's look at the words "free" and "will."&nbsp; These are not dictionary definitions.&nbsp; Feel free to obtain those if you&nbsp;are so inclined.&nbsp; Free - Not influenced by or dictated from a force&nbsp;outside oneself.&nbsp; Does not take into consideration prior, or&nbsp;resulting&nbsp;circumstances. Will - In the biblical sense this just basically means "desire."&nbsp;

Ya know reformer, I'm going to try and make this whole discussion as simple as possible if I may.&nbsp; I used to teach fifth graders the bible at my church and when I had them read the simple stories of some of the bible characters, i.e. David and Goliath, Samson, etc and would ask them simple questions about why these people made the decisions they did by living according to their own desires and wills, those kids&nbsp;were able to give the right&nbsp;answers because you know why reformer?&nbsp; Because God's word is simple enough for children to understand, you don't have to be a darn theologian to&nbsp;figure it out!&nbsp; Your last&nbsp;extremely long&nbsp;post is full of confusion&nbsp; and contraditions of who God really is in the scriptures just like the doctrine of unconditional election that calvanism teaches.&nbsp; The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that Calvinists teach. The Bible does not teach that God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost. We are free, moral agents with the capacity to accept or reject God's commandments.&nbsp;Predestination or fore-ordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:3,11) As the scripture is so simple to understand in Romans, God is no respecter of persons.....&nbsp;&nbsp;If you believe in this calvinistic doctrine then how do you (reformer) know or have the assurance you are saved?&nbsp;&nbsp;What makes you think God chose you after you made your decision to follow His Son Christ Jesus?&nbsp; Maybe the God of calvinism didn't choose reformer as one of his own, did you ever come to that conclusion?&nbsp; I choose to believe the scripture, not some man made doctrine that is&nbsp;full of confusion and&nbsp;contradictions.

Cheers again.....

&nbsp;

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by franklin
Ya know reformer, I'm going to try and make this whole discussion as simple as possible if I may.&nbsp; I used to teach fifth graders the bible at my church and when I had them read the simple stories of some of the bible characters, i.e. David and Goliath, Samson, etc and would ask them simple questions about why these people made the decisions they did by living according to their own desires and wills, those kids&nbsp;were able to give the right&nbsp;answers because you know why reformer?&nbsp; Because God's word is simple enough for children to understand, you don't have to be a darn theologian to&nbsp;figure it out!&nbsp; Your last&nbsp;extremely long&nbsp;post is full of confusion&nbsp; and contraditions of who God really is in the scriptures just like the doctrine of unconditional election that calvanism teaches.&nbsp; The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that Calvinists teach. The Bible does not teach that God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost. We are free, moral agents with the capacity to accept or reject God's commandments.&nbsp;Predestination or fore-ordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:3,11) As the scripture is so simple to understand in Romans, God is no respecter of persons.....&nbsp;&nbsp;If you believe in this calvinistic doctrine then how do you (reformer) know or have the assurance you are saved?&nbsp;&nbsp;What makes you think God chose you after you made your decision to follow His Son Christ Jesus?&nbsp; Maybe the God of calvinism didn't choose reformer as one of his own, did you ever come to that conclusion?&nbsp; I choose to believe the scripture, not some man made doctrine that is&nbsp;full of confusion and&nbsp;contradictions.

Cheers again.....

&nbsp;

franklin, I am more than happy to discuss my theological viewpoints with you.&nbsp; In fact, I am, or was, enjoying it very much.&nbsp; Maybe I'm reading to deep into this post but your animosity and belligerency regarding what you view as a&nbsp;"man made doctrine"&nbsp;is very apparent in this post.&nbsp; Before I continue to respond I need to know are truly trying to understand this doctrine so that you can know how to progress or is your motive just one of pointing out how wrong it is, obviously without understanding it.&nbsp; Because, I must tell you, if it is the latter, I have no desire to engage in that type of debate.&nbsp; I get enough of that already.&nbsp; If it is, instead, a desire to express God's grace by helping your brother better understand God's message, and therefore create a stronger relationship with Him, then I am all for it.

Please let me know.

God bless.

 

[mjwhite]

Franklin,

you said,
I used to teach fifth graders the bible at my church and when I had them read the simple stories of some of the bible characters, i.e. David and Goliath, Samson, etc and would ask them simple questions about why these people made the decisions they did by living according to their own desires and wills, those kids were able to give the right answers because you know why reformer? Because God's word is simple enough for children to understand, you don't have to be a darn theologian to figure it out!


So without getting into that deep theologian stuff, please tell me WHY you made the decision to follow Jesus, and WHY those in Hell did not.

Simple enough for children, I agree if we see with simple eyes. To me it is simple to know WHY. How about you?

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
&nbsp; I am more than happy to discuss my theological viewpoints with you.&nbsp; In fact, I am, or was, enjoying it very much.&nbsp; Maybe I'm reading to deep into this post but your animosity and belligerency regarding what you view as a&nbsp;"man made doctrine"&nbsp;is very apparent in this post.&nbsp; Before I continue to respond I need to know are truly trying to understand this doctrine so that you can know how to progress or is your motive just one of pointing out how wrong it is, obviously without understanding it.&nbsp; Because, I must tell you, if it is the latter, I have no desire to engage in that type of debate.&nbsp; I get enough of that already.&nbsp; If it is, instead, a desire to express God's grace by helping your brother better understand God's message, and therefore create a stronger relationship with Him, then I am all for it. Please let me know.&nbsp;

Animosity and belligerency?!&nbsp; man!&nbsp; I had no idea you were so sensitive brother!&nbsp; I think your confusing anger with passion!&nbsp; I am by no means angry at you or in any way expressing beligerency!&nbsp; Please brother, if that is what your take was then I will apologize....&nbsp; I was just expressing passionately about your statements and I don't apologize for that because what I was saying was your post is making this whole issue more complicated than what it really is.&nbsp; As for what you are saying about trying to understand calvinisms doctrine, yes, I would like to hear why you believe it is what the scripture teaches.&nbsp; I guess I have expressed to you why I believe it to be false and I have even provided scripture that does refute it.&nbsp; So if you have anything that you feel supports it, then go for it brother.&nbsp; Show me the scriptures and your explaination as to why&nbsp;you believe&nbsp;it is biblical.&nbsp;

Cheers

&nbsp;

 

[franklin]

&nbsp; Originally posted by mjwhite
So without getting into that deep theologian stuff, please tell me WHY you made the decision to follow Jesus, and WHY those in Hell did not.

&nbsp;

My wife led me to Christ..... years ago, when I saw the change in her life and I was amazed at how God could do such a&nbsp;thing in a persons life.&nbsp;&nbsp;I started attending the church she was going to and I heard the gospel of Christ and how He could come into a persons life and give you&nbsp;life more abundantly and that is when I wanted to follow him and grow in Him.&nbsp; I put my trust in Him and was baptized that evening at the church my wife was attending.&nbsp; I have been following Christ ever since that day and still learning the truths of His word.&nbsp; As for those who&nbsp;have not accepted Him and I'm not sure why you are asking me about them, I can't speak for them and it's not for me or you to judge wheather they are in hell or not!&nbsp;&nbsp;That is for God to judge.&nbsp; We do not have any right whatsoever to pass judgement on someone who doesn't accept our preaching.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp; Simple enough for children, I agree if we see with simple eyes. To me it is simple to know WHY. How about you? [/B]

Yes, simple enough for children just like Jesus said Himself, isn't that how you came to know Him?&nbsp; Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[Caedmon]

You used the phrase "full of confusion and contradictions" twice in your post, among other phrases. I interpreted that as slight contempt. Nevertheless, I'll address your post.

Originally posted by franklin
I used to teach fifth graders the bible at my church and when I had them read the simple stories of some of the bible characters, i.e. David and Goliath, Samson, etc and would ask them simple questions about why these people made the decisions they did by living according to their own desires and wills, those kids&nbsp;were able to give the right&nbsp;answers because you know why reformer?&nbsp; Because God's word is simple enough for children to understand, you don't have to be a darn theologian to&nbsp;figure it out!&nbsp;

What specific questions did you ask them? What were they're answers? How do know they gave the "right" answers? Is the Bible really simple enough for children to understand? How would a group of 5th graders interpret the following verse?

But Rabshakeh said to them, "Has my master sent me only to your master and to you to speak these words, and not to the men who sit on the wall, doomed to eat their own dung and drink their own urine with you?" - II Kings 18:27, NASB

Faith is simple enough for children to understand, but theology is not.

Your last&nbsp;extremely long&nbsp;post is full of confusion&nbsp; and contraditions of who God really is in the scriptures just like the doctrine of unconditional election that calvanism teaches.&nbsp; The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that Calvinists teach. The Bible does not teach that God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost.

So He doesn't know who will be saved and who will be lost?

We are free, moral agents with the capacity to accept or reject God's commandments.&nbsp;

How are you "free"?

Predestination or fore-ordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son.

Which men? All men? If he determined to save all men from sin, they why are some men in Hell?

Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:3,11) As the scripture is so simple to understand in Romans, God is no respecter of persons.....&nbsp;&nbsp;

Romans is simple? Why do seminaries offer an entire semester course on Romans?

If you believe in this calvinistic doctrine then how do you (reformer) know or have the assurance you are saved?&nbsp;&nbsp;What makes you think God chose you after you made your decision to follow His Son Christ Jesus?&nbsp; Maybe the God of calvinism didn't choose reformer as one of his own, did you ever come to that conclusion?&nbsp; I choose to believe the scripture, not some man made doctrine that is&nbsp;full of confusion and&nbsp;contradictions.

*sigh*... This is an all-too-common misconception about Calvinism.

Calvinists know they're saved the same way you know you are saved, by the presence of God's fruit and a desire for righteousness in their lives. Whoever pursues God's righteousness is saved. Whoever is serving God is saved. If you're saved, then you are among the Elect. God doesn't elect just "some" Christians that He "respects" over other Christians. All Christians are saved. All Christians are among the Elect. Christians = Elect. Elect = Christians. I don't think I can make it any simpler.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by franklin
Animosity and belligerency?!&nbsp; man!&nbsp; I had no idea you were so sensitive brother!

Not sensitive, cautious.&nbsp; I've seen these exact questions before, and responded to them, only to have people get&nbsp;offended because they feel that I'm implying that God is this merciless, vindictive, unrighteous judge of mankind.&nbsp; I'd hate to see it erupt into that.&nbsp; You have been very cordial and I'd rather forego an arguement than risk causing my brother to sin.

I think your confusing anger with passion!

That's why I asked for clarification.&nbsp; The written word is often hard to interpret, be it God's or our's.

I was saying was your post is making this whole issue more complicated than what it really is.

I don't think theological debate gets much more complicated than this, evidenced by the fact that this debate has been going on for 300 some odd years.

I guess I have expressed to you why I believe it to be false and I have even provided scripture that does refute it.

Are there scriptures that you have posted that I didn't respond to? I thought I had responded to your scripture references here.

So if you have anything that you feel supports it, then go for it brother.&nbsp; Show me the scriptures and your explaination as to why&nbsp;you believe&nbsp;it is biblical.

I'll be happy to.&nbsp; However, I think it would be more beneficial if you asked me what your specific objections with my viewpoint is, as you seem to have some misinterpretations as to what I am saying:

Originally posted by franklin
What makes you think God chose you after you made your decision to follow His Son Christ Jesus?

Just for the record, what I am saying is that God chose&nbsp;me before&nbsp;I made&nbsp;the decision to follow His Son, Christ Jesus, not after.&nbsp; I am saying that the reason&nbsp;I was&nbsp;able to make that decision is because He had already saved me.&nbsp;&nbsp;My outward expressions of faith, i.e., works, are a result of His saving me, not a means by which to obtain, or merit,&nbsp;salvation.&nbsp; I say this because, like you, I believe "God is no respecter of persons."&nbsp; Therefore, His institution of salvation into our lives is not based on anything we do, including "asking Him to be our Lord."&nbsp; We just mark the event of our realization of the truth of God by an act we accomplish, i.e., baptism, sinner's prayer, etc.&nbsp; What I'm saying is, for&nbsp;me to turn to God with a desire to be His, He had to have changed me.&nbsp; Prior to that, I was fallen and had no desire to serve Him or even recognize His authority.&nbsp; Again, this spawns a discussion of how "far" His grace regenerates a person, but that is another issue.

So, if you have particular objections to the beliefs espoused by John Calvin I'd be happy to address them.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Calvinists know they're saved the same way you know you are saved, by the presence of God's fruit and a desire for righteousness in their lives. Whoever pursues God's righteousness is saved. Whoever is serving God is saved. If you're saved, then you are among the Elect. God doesn't elect just "some" Christians that He "respects" over other Christians. All Christians are saved. All Christians are among the Elect. Christians = Elect. Elect = Christians. I don't think I can make it any simpler.

Amen brother.&nbsp; Nicely said.

God bless.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"Whoever is serving God is saved."

So what if someone serves God but then turns away and dies not serving God? By what you say that would be impossible since if they serve God they have no free will to turn back. Just curious of what you think about this situation.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Project 86
So what if someone serves God but then turns away and dies not serving God? By what you say that would be impossible since if they serve God they have no free will to turn back. Just curious of what you think about this situation.

Project 86, everyone, everywhere, from all times (excluding Jesus) has sinned, before and after they were saved.&nbsp; Dying before acknowledging your sin is unfortunate, but most definitely not an issue of losing your salvation.&nbsp; I gotta tell you, if I had to walk around every day wondering if there were sins that I had committed without even being aware of them and it was a case of losing my salvation I doubt I'd ever leave my house for the fear of being sinful towards someone.

As we did nothing to merit our salvation, we can do nothing to lose it.&nbsp; Before you take that to mean that we are free to sin let me assure you, that isn't what I mean.&nbsp; God, as part of our nature as His children, gave us the desire and ability to do for His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).&nbsp; He gave us all things pertaining to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).&nbsp; He did all these things because He loves us, His children.&nbsp; What&nbsp;He didn't do was to remove our old nature.&nbsp; This is how He is developing our godliness, by using the&nbsp;resistance of our old sinful nature to develop our character as we struggle against it.

Once saved, as Paul intimates, we are not under that law of sin and death:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

He relays that, as a person saved by God,&nbsp;it is now the law of sin that wages war in his members:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

A Christian who subscribes to these beliefs understands that it is put plainly in scripture:

Romans 8:38,39
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,<SUP> </SUP>nor height nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING (this includes us, being that we were created), shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Italicized portion was my addition

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.&nbsp; Unfortunately, I have to go for now.

Catch y'all later.

God bless.

 

[mjwhite]

Franklin,

you said,
Simple enough for children, I agree if we see with simple eyes. To me it is simple to know WHY. How about you? [/B]


Yes, simple enough for children just like Jesus said Himself, isn't that how you came to know Him? Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.


yes i agree. But please bear with me as I seek to get at the base by asking simple questions.

quote:
Originally posted by mjwhite
So without getting into that deep theologian stuff, please tell me WHY you made the decision to follow Jesus, and WHY those in Hell did not.


My wife led me to Christ..... years ago, when I saw the change in her life and I was amazed at how God could do such a thing in a persons life. I started attending the church she was going to and I heard the gospel of Christ and how He could come into a persons life and give you life more abundantly and that is when I wanted to follow him and grow in Him. I put my trust in Him and was baptized that evening at the church my wife was attending. I have been following Christ ever since that day and still learning the truths of His word. As for those who have not accepted Him and I'm not sure why you are asking me about them, I can't speak for them and it's not for me or you to judge wheather they are in hell or not! That is for God to judge. We do not have any right whatsoever to pass judgement on someone who doesn't accept our preaching.

Let me forget about those in hell for a second. We by neccesity will come back to your opinion about them.

You said you heard about Christ and ...and I heard the gospel of Christ and how He could come into a persons life and give you life more abundantly and that is when I wanted to follow him and grow in Him. ...

You just heard about Him and you acted? Aren't you leaving out something? Many hear about Christ but do not act on it. They don't believe! Now i am in complete agreement with you that as given your testimony, you heard the truth and you acted upon it [freely by choice, I might add]. There are those whom, and i think you would agree, that hear and freely choose not to act on it. Free will whether to act on it, or not to act on it then has nothing to do with WHY we act on it or not. [Not that you said anything to the contrary, i am just establishing a point], Agreed?


To further establish this point with you, Free will then is not WHY we choose Jesus. We have other reasons.

Salvation is from the heart. Romans 10:9-10 tells us we need to believe from the heart that God has raised Jesus, and confess from the mouth that He is Lord. Confession from the mouth comes after belief from the heart, for it is only what we truly believe that we can truly confess from the heart.

Now you had reasons to confess, for as you stated: the change in your wife's life. But in and of itself, that is not a true foundation for salvation. We must believe Jesus died for us, we must believe He is Lord. Many people go through good changes in their life, some from the result of false religous notions. These changes don't prove that their cult leader is Jesus returned [the Moonies] or that peace comes through proper diet and karma, etc.

Faith to be saved doesn't come through seeing but through hearing the gospel. Certainly your wife's witness was a major influence on you, but she is not why you got saved, she is not the foundation of your faith.

Are we still in agreement? I hope so.

So as i said, you left out a step. before you can go from wanting what she had to having it yourself, you must believe the gospel as true. You must believe that Jesus died for you and that He is Lord. So here is my simple question:

WHY did you believe that?

thanks,
mike

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Hi, I'm back from my cruise. It was the funnest 5 days of my life!

Why do some choose Jesus and others don't? All people are born with a conscience. The conscience is what tells a person if something is wrong or right. Some people pay attention to their conscience, and some do not. If a man pays attention to his conscience, that is an indicator that, in his free will, he has decided he wants to do what's right and/or pursue the truth. And what does the Bible say about those who seek? The Word says they will find.

Now, why do some people pay attention to their conscience and others don't? Well, for many people (if not most people), they don't start out obeying their conscience. It is only after suffering the consequences of disobeying their conscience that they realize it has gotten them nowhere and decide there must be more to life. Such a heart is in just the right condition for the Holy Spirit to be able to get through. Of course, there are some people that, even after suffering the consequences of disobeying their conscience, still persist in doing evil.

But I guess there is still a bit of mystery as to why every single individual chose Christ while other individuals didn't. But does that mean that the theory of free will when choosing Christ is wrong? No. There are mysteries to many different things concerning God. The Trinity has much mystery to it, and it is most definitely not wrong.

By the way, don't forget that the Calvinist theory has its own inherent mysteries. For example, many have asked the Calvinists, "Why would a merciful and loving God create some to go to Hell and some to got to Heaven, leaving them no choice in teh matter?" What is the answer we overwhelmingly get? That's right - "It's a mystery of God".

But what is not a mystery is that 1 Timothy 2:4 clearly states that God desires that all men be saved. All definitely means all in this case. No one has been able to come up with any Biblical basis for believing otherwise concerning this verse, nor has anyone been able to show that the context of the verse would indicate otherwise. In fact, I have shown you all the Greek word for this and the definition of that Greek word.

What God desires doesn't always happen. God desires that no children be murdered or sexually assaulted. But it happens all the time. But because God doesn't want man to do these things, he has given man the opportunity to decide not to do these things.

Now, if the Calvinists are right, then it means that God must not desire for everyone to be saved, otherwise, he would have given everyone the opportunity to be saved. But we know from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God does want everyone to be saved. That means he has given everyone the opportunity to be saved, and strict predestination and limited atonement go out the window.

 

[mjwhite]

#295 <B>Why?

Dear Slavenomore,</B>Hi, I'm back from my cruise. It was the funnest 5 days of my life!

Glad to hear you had a great time.

Why do some choose Jesus and others don't? All people are born with a conscience. The conscience is what tells a person if something is wrong or right. Some people pay attention to their conscience, and some do not. If a man pays attention to his conscience, that is an indicator that, in his free will, he has decided he wants to do what's right and/or pursue the truth. And what does the Bible say about those who seek? The Word says they will find.

Now, why do some people pay attention to their conscience and others don't? Well, for many people (if not most people), they don't start out obeying their conscience. It is only after suffering the consequences of disobeying their conscience that they realize it has gotten them nowhere and decide there must be more to life. Such a heart is in just the right condition for the Holy Spirit to be able to get through. Of course, there are some people that, even after suffering the consequences of disobeying their conscience, still persist in doing evil.

How do you know it is NOT the Holy Spirit who helps that conscience realize there must be more to life?

Secondly, you are describing why someone might look for answers outside of where they are presently, but this does not explain why they are willing to place their lives in the hands of a man that lived a long time ago and for all they know is dead and gone.

But I guess there is still a bit of mystery as to why every single individual chose Christ while other individuals didn't. But does that mean that the theory of free will when choosing Christ is wrong? No. There are mysteries to many different things concerning God. The Trinity has much mystery to it, and it is most definitely not wrong.

While you guess there is a mystery why some choose God and others do not, I know that there is a proper and God glorifying reason. This is not to say that we choose Christ against our free will. Our differences are NOT about free will.

By the way, don't forget that the Calvinist theory has its own inherent mysteries. For example, many have asked the Calvinists, "Why would a merciful and loving God create some to go to Hell and some to got to Heaven, leaving them no choice in teh matter?" What is the answer we overwhelmingly get? That's right - "It's a mystery of God".

There are some mysteries that we do not understand yet if ever, but just because one thing is a mystery it doesn’t support another mystery. Why some get saved and others do not is only a mystery to you because you fail to give God ALL the glory for your salvation but insist that you yourself are pivotal in your own destiny: why do some people pay attention to their conscience and others don't. You are in essence saying that you paid attention while others did not, OR, if they did pay attention, they wanted evil while you wanted good: Of course, there are some people that, even after suffering the consequences of disobeying their conscience, still persist in doing evil.

So boiled down, you are saying you got saved because you had righteous desires the others did not have. Will you credit these righteous desires to God? I don’t think so, for if you did, then you would be sayimg God saved you by giving you righteous desires He did not give others.

So, you must be saying that there is something inherent in you [and not God produced] that made you not desire to continue in evil that was not in those others. There is your boast. There is where you usurp from God the glory of your salvation. For, if this being true, you are saying that the CROSS was not enough to save ALL for each one of us has to throw off their evil desires and embrace God before the cross can save us. That we are not wholly righteous because of the blood alone, but we first must achieve some measure of righteousness first so we will not persist in evil and obey our conscience.

Of course your theory fails to account for the evil you still persist in doing since you are still a sinner, are you not?

But what is not a mystery is that 1 Timothy 2:4 clearly states that God desires that all men be saved. All definitely means all in this case. No one has been able to come up with any Biblical basis for believing otherwise concerning this verse, nor has anyone been able to show that the context of the verse would indicate otherwise. In fact, I have shown you all the Greek word for this and the definition of that Greek word.

It clearly states that, but it doesn’t necessarily mean every person who ever breathes. And I have shown you that ‘all’ doesn’t always mean what you desire here to mean. It is simply your desire to have it mean ‘everyone who ever breathed’ that fuels your position.

What God desires doesn't always happen. God desires that no children be murdered or sexually assaulted. But it happens all the time. But because God doesn't want man to do these things, he has given man the opportunity to decide not to do these things.

You mix up works and grace. Not that I think you discard grace for I know you don’t, but you mix them together. Works can be described as the choices we make. Good works are good choices and bad works are bad choices even as you point out: But because God doesn't want man to do these things[children be murdered or sexually assaulted ], these are bad choices we make: bad works; and he has given man the opportunity to decide not to do these things, so not doing these things and doing the right things are good works, i.e. good choices.

We are not saved by our works, but we are damned by them. When we choose to disobey God we become condemned. No longer can our choice overturn that condemnation. No longer do we have any righteousness before God to effect salvation from Him and for us. But you say we have to not desire evil and embrace God before we are saved and yea, in order to get saved. But this is proven false since you still sin. You still desire evil for you still freely do it. So all you are saying is that at that one time, that one moment of decision, all we have to do at that specific moment is stop desiring evil long enough to accept Jesus. Is that your position?

Now, if the Calvinists are right, then it means that God must not desire for everyone to be saved, otherwise, he would have given everyone the opportunity to be saved. But we know from 1 Timothy 2:4 that God does want everyone to be saved. That means he has given everyone the opportunity to be saved, and strict predestination and limited atonement go out the window.

We do not know that from 1 Tim 2:4 that God wants all who breath to be saved, You only think that is true [you and others]. If you want to rob God of the glory of your salvation based on doctrine driven interpretations, that is your choice. You fail to bring God all the glory for your salvation. You fail to boast only in the cross of Christ but instead boast that before the cross can be effective in your life, you must decide whether to continue to desire evil or not.

AND, you still have failed to actually give a reason why that even after you threw off evil and turned to Jesus why you turned to Jesus. Why not turn to Buddhism, or to allah?

mike

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by mjwhite
We do not know that from 1 Tim 2:4 that God wants all who breath to be saved, You only think that is true [you and others]. If you want to rob God of the glory of your salvation based on doctrine driven interpretations, that is your choice. You fail to bring God all the glory for your salvation. You fail to boast only in the cross of Christ but instead boast that before the cross can be effective in your life, you must decide whether to continue to desire evil or not.
AND, you still have failed to actually give a reason why that even after you threw off evil and turned to Jesus why you turned to Jesus. Why not turn to Buddhism, or to allah?
mike

mjwhite, you still won't admit that the all in 1 Tim 2:4 means "all"? I told you the greek word and what it means ("Everyone without exception"). How can you continue to deny that "all" means "all" in this case? You say that I am robbing God of the glory of my salvation by relying on "doctrine driven interpretations", but that is not the case at all. I have given you proof of that verse's meaning. But you still continue to deny it, and are in fact unable to back up your claim that "all" doesn't mean "all" in this case. Rather than me relying on "doctrine driven interpretations", it is you doing that in this case, because you can't provide biblical basis for your theory.

I turned to Jesus because the Holy Spirit spoke to me. He threw me a life vest while I was drowning. I didn't have to put the life vest on, but I did. If you want to call that "boasting", then fine. There's nothing I can do about that. But that's what happened. He offered and I accepted. Some people that receive the offer do not accept.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Are there scriptures that you have posted that I didn't respond to? I thought I had responded to your scripture references here.

hi reformer, this is off the subject but could you tell me how you were able to link the word "here " back to one of your other posts? I'd like to be able to do that. That's sure seems like a handy little trick. I'll try to get back to the discussion with you, but I'm loaded with work that I need to get out, so hang in there and I appreciate your posts.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by franklin
hi reformer, this is off the subject but could you tell me how you were able to link the word "here " back to one of your other posts? I'd like to be able to do that. That's sure seems like a handy little trick. I'll try to get back to the discussion with you, but I'm loaded with work that I need to get out, so hang in there and I appreciate your posts.

Hey franklin!&nbsp; It's really simple.&nbsp; The easiest way to do it, in my opinion, is open an additional window, browse to&nbsp;the page that has the post that you want to link to.&nbsp; Each individual post, as you'll notice, has it's own number.&nbsp; That number is actually a hyperlink.&nbsp; Right click on the number, choose "copy shortcut," then go back to the reply window.&nbsp; Then, all you do is, in your post/reply, highlight the word you want to link and then hit the "link" button at the top of the post/reply text box.&nbsp; It looks like this <IMG alt=Link hspace=2 src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/toolbar/link.gif" align=absMiddle vspace=1>.&nbsp; It will will ask you what you want to link the highlighted word(s) to.&nbsp; Right click on the "http://" line and select "paste."&nbsp; Then click "OK."&nbsp; That should do the trick.&nbsp; Your word should be underlined now.&nbsp; When you post the message the word you linked should hyperlink to whatever URL you put in there.

The process is a little different in a PM.&nbsp; If you'd like to know how to do that, let me know.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by franklin
I'll try to get back to the discussion with you, but I'm loaded with work that I need to get out, so hang in there and I appreciate your posts.

And I appreciate your's brother.&nbsp; Lookin' forward to it.

Don't work too hard!