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U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Blackhawk, Apr 11, 2002.

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  1. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    Dear Slavenomore,

    You only think you proved all meant everyone without exception. You did not. In fact in Strong's, there is no greek reference to the word all. That means the word all isn't even in the original. But my parallel Greek NT shows the word pantas. The usual word used for all [pas -strong's #3956] can also mean any, every, as many as, throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

    you said:I turned to Jesus because the Holy Spirit spoke to me. He threw me a life vest while I was drowning. I didn't have to put the life vest on, but I did. If you want to call that "boasting", then fine. There's nothing I can do about that. But that's what happened. He offered and I accepted. Some people that receive the offer do not accept.

    How do you know the Holy Spirit offers this to those who do not accept? You can't even prove he offered it to you much less anyone else.
    mike
     
  2. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    "Everyone without exception"... Was he not talking about Christians? If he was, then I would imagine he would use a word meaning every Christian "without exception".

    So, you came to a full and complete realization and understanding of the saving grace of God, and that you were destined for Hell, and you were shown that being a child of God is eternally more beneficial than going to Hell for eternity, and you're going to tell me that it would have been possible for you to reject that and "choose" your temporary indulgences in the flesh over eternity in Heaven??? :confused:
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I personally have answered this question a couple hundred times (at the least).  The answer, while definitely according to His will, is not mysterious in the least.  God's word tells us that "His Will for our lives" is our sanctification (1 Thess 4:3).  Additionally, we are told that He works everything to the good of those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose (Rom 8:28).  Does the Word tell us that He works everything to the good of everyone?  Of course not.  God's desire is that His children be conformed to the image of His Son, to the image of rightoeusness (Rom 8:29; Phil 3:20,21; James 1:4).  How is it that we can be thankful and joyful for our salvation if we don't see the depravity from which we've been saved?  How can we have compassion for the trials of others if we don't experience trials ourselves.  How can we even begin to recognize the sovereignty and majesty of Him who rescued us when we were "dead in our trespasses" and unable to even turn to Him for redemption?  Only when we truly recognize that we were saved, even rescued, from our own depravity can we begin to comprehend the magnitude of grace that God bestows on us on a daily basis that keeps us from succumbing to that sinful nature that we possessed for so long. 

    And I have said numerous times that this refers to God's benevolence, and the fact that He takes no delight in the death of the wicked.  It has nothing to do with His inability to sovereignly ensure that His own creation will inherit the blessings of their Father and know His love.

    I have to ask you, and I hope you reply to this, if you believe God, the Creator of all things, including mankind, "desires" that "all" mankind be saved, and yet it doesn't happen that way, what is it that you're saying about God?  Either God desires the salvation of "all" of mankind but has not the power to effect that desire, His Will, or, He does have the power to make it a reality but chooses not to, which, in my opinion, doesn't sound like love at all.  It sounds like indifference.  Do you think God could truly desire something but not make it happen?  The response I often hear to this, and I hope I don't hear it from you, is that "God loves us so much that He left it up to us."  Let me get this straight.  God loves a person "so much" that He is willing to be separated from them for all eternity and condemn them to the pit of hell to suffer eternal damnation?

    I don't know if you're a father, but I am.  My desire is to raise my children according to God's Word.  He has put me in charge of three of His most beautiful creations.  I do my best to work everything that comes into our lives, including their disbehavior, to teach and instruct them on what is expected according to God's Word.  You're saying that God, who IS LOVE, loves His children so much less than I, his fallen creation, do that He is willing to drum them out of the family and make them suffer eternally?  I don't know man.  Doesn't sound too loving to me.

    WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!

    These examples are tragedies in our eyes.  No doubt.  However, how do you come to the conclusion that God is not using for good what man meant for evil?  Are you telling me that you've never experienced hardship in your life that has caused you to grow closer to God?  That's what the life of a Christian is all about brother.  Look at Paul's life.  He suffered things just as bad as these examples you've given.  What was his response?  What about Job?  I'd say he suffered.  Do you think it was God's Will that those things happen to Job?  If not His, whose?  Satan's?  God was the one who said "go ahead and do it."  Was it His desire?  You'd best bet it was.  You see, you and I only see the immediate consequences of such events.  Do you know how many people have come to realize God's love because of such things?  What's worse, being molested or not knowing God?  If God uses the depravity of one event to teach His chosen what His love can do is the event a bad thing?  I should say not.  Do we enjoy these trials in our lives?  Of course not.  However, let me assure you, if it happens, it's God's Will that it happen.  You can never be outside of God's Will, whether you are saved or unsaved.  How could James tell those Christians to "count it all joy when you fall into various trials?"  Do you understand what trials those people were experiencing?  They were being dipped in tar and lit on fire to serve as lamps in a garden, while they were still alive.  He was telling them to submit to their masters in the face of their depravity.  How could they take him serious?  Only because they could focus on "pressing toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14).

    If you have any other questions that have only been answered "it's a mystery of God" please feel free to ask.

    God bless.
     
  4. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Dear slavenomore,

    here is a Greek lexicon's take on pas -all:
    Home > Lexicons > Greek > Pas
    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 3956 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    pa'ß including all the forms of declension
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Pas 5:886,795
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    pas /cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3956g/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3956g Adjective
    Definition
    1. individually
    a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
    2. collectively
    a. some of all types
    ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan. "Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile
    at this web site:
    http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=kjv
    more later
     
  5. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

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    +0
  6. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
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    Dear Slavenomore,

    here is the point: all means all but all of what? You wish it to mean every person who ever lived. It very rarelty means that. Does that prove thta it doesn't mean that in 1 tim2.4? No. But neither does the word 'all' have to mean that.

    Now if you want to believe that those who do not hear the gospel while alive will get a chance to hear it after they ar dead then that is up to you. But the biblical case for that is very slim as in slim to none. Who would be more believeable anyway? An imperfect man who sins against the very God he wants one to belive in, or Jesus himself preaching to you in the life beyond this one?

    If you say Jesus, then why do we witness at all? It would be better to let Jesus preach to them after they are dead wouldn't it?

    If you say you [over Jesus], let me say hahahaha! You are just one voice among many, why should any person believe you?
     
  7. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    /mod hat on

    Let's keep our replies courteous and motivated for our desire for one another to grow in our relationship with Christ.

    Thank you.

    /mod hat off.

    God bless.
     
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Are all sinners? Answer this one simple question.
     
  9. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
  10. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    all but Jesus

    read 1st John 1:8,10

    And faith is not saying God has done it. Faith is trusting God. Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see, but it is a lie to say God has done what he has not yet done.
     
  11. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    477
    +15
    Christian
    I don't have much time right now, so I will answer this one right now and deal with the rest later.

    I never said that God can't turn around what man meant for evil and work it for good. not once did I say that. But just because he often does that doesn't mean he "desired" the evil to happen in the first place.

    Do you honestly believe that God desires that a child, any child at all be raped? I certainly don't. Satan is the author of evil and evil thoughts, not God.
     
  12. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    477
    +15
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    The only time I ever calimed that Christ preached to the dead is while his body was dead for 3 days. And sir, that is Biblical.

    Now, what did he preach? Did I ever say that he gave the wicked dead an opportunity to accept him? No. It is more likely that he went to the place of the dead to announce to those whose faith had been accounted as righteousness (Abraham, etc.) that the salvation work had been completed. But these people had already been justified through their faith, and were just in a "holding cell" until they could be cleansed by the blood of Jesus and thuis be allowed into God's Heaven. I never said that people would have a chance to accept God after they die. Don't put words in my mouth.

    As for your other comment, I'm not surprised. You have treated me with this kind of disrespect since I began discussions with you.
     
  13. mjwhite

    mjwhite Member

    210
    +0
    Dear slavenomore,

    Oh so you are agreeing with me then that there are millions who never heard the truth? Why then did you bring up the fact that jesus preached to the dead? [in another post]?

    How can these who never hear the truth accept the truth? How can they get saved by faith in Jesus when they never heard of Jesus? When i asked you these questions before, you said Jesus preached to the dead?

    So forgive me for misunderstanding you and thinking you meant something you didn't. But you left me with a certain impression and simply ducked out of my questions. Why do you run from my questions?

    Boasting is allowed. To ask you what your boast is in is not to be rude. Yet you have considered me rude for asking you questions. And then when you boast on yourself and against and over those other men in hell, am I supposed to ignore your boastings?

    Your doctrine says one thing, your testimony another. Am I supposed to ignore such inconsistency? Sure i understand you don't like someone prying apart your beliefs, but if they are the truth, no one will be able to pry them apart. And if you are weak, rely on Jesus and the Spirit to guide you, and if you don't, or won't, you shouldn't be in a forum where there are opposing views.

    You are like every Arminian i have encounterd so far in the respect that when i start probing into the WHY of your belief, you run. Am i exposing not a solid rock foundation but empty air?

    What are you hiding? Why won't you answer my questions? And why do you answer them without openness? [like answering that those who died and never heard the gospel would get preached to them by Jesus, and then later, weeks later after being called on it, you qualify your answer to the point that it never really answered the original question.]

    I can't make you answer, but i wonder why you duck so much.
     
  14. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Okay.  I'll ask you again, since you seem to be ignoring the question.  Do you believe that God could truly desire something to not happen, and by that I mean it is His sovereign Will that something not happen, and yet it does anyway?  You say God sovereignly Wills that no children get raped.  Yet you and I both know that it happens.  You're saying that God, the Ruler and Creator and Sustainer of life and all things He created divinely Wills for no child to experience the terrible circumstance of being raped and yet it happens anyway?  Who is it that you thing can defy God's Will?  If you think man, God's creation, can do something that his Creator divinely Wills him not to do who is it that is more powerful?  I think you're confusing what happens when God desires something with what happens when man desires something.  You see, when God desires something, it happens.  When man desires something, he tries to make it happen by the means available to him.  Man cannot make something happen or not happen by the power of his will.  God, however, can and does.

    Do I think God takes delight in the sufferings of those children?  Absolutely not.  But, that is a far cry from determining whether it was His Will.  Here's how you figure it out.  If it happens, it's His Will.  If it doesn't, it's not His Will.  Simple enough.

    I hear the concept of "the devil made me do it" in Christian circles so often I wonder if people truly feel responsible for anything they do.  Satan does tempt man, yes.  But, man's being drawn away from God's righteousness is a result of man, not satan.  For many people it goes something like this:

    All good things are from God, and all bad things are from satan.

    Man's sinfulness is pretty much summed up here:

    James 1:13-15
    Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.<SUP> </SUP>But each one is tempted when he is drawn away BY HIS OWN DESIRES and enticed.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    Believe me, it's not satan that makes us sin.&nbsp; If saved, it's a person responding according to their old nature.&nbsp; If unsaved, it's a person responding the only way they will, sinfully.

    God bless.
     
  15. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Is this "holding cell" purgatory? Been reading C.S. Lewis?

    The salvation work was ordained and done before the foundations of the world.
     
  16. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

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    Christian
    No, Satan doesn't MAKE man sin, but the temptation comes from Satan. A Christian cannot blame his sin on the old nature, because the old nature is dead in a Christian; it has been crucified. Christians have the nature of Christ; the Holy Spirit lives within them. Why do some Christians still blame their sin on "oh, it's just my old nature, my sin nature", when the Bible makes it clear that the sin nature has been crucified and is now destroyed? Rather, Christians should say "The Devil tempted me, and told me I wanted to commit this sin; he told me that my sin nature is still alive, and that I am still a slave to sin. It is a lie, but I believed the lie and sinned anyway". The fault for committing the sin then, doesn't lie with Satan. The fault lies with the Christian, because he believed the lie and committed the sin. But make no mistake, the temptation originated with Satan and his cohorts; it did not originate from within the Christian's spirit.

    Yes, I do believe that some things that God do not desire do indeed happen. For you, that is tantamount to saying that God has lost control. But for the person who believes in free will, it means no such thing. God gives us free will. The way we exercise it is our own responsibility. God cannot be blamed for our choices. For some reason known only to God, He chooses not to step in when certain things happen. Certain things that he does not want to happen do indeed happen.

    To be frank with you, I can't believe that you actually believe that everything that happens is God's will. I just can't believe that you believe that a child being raped is God's will. That just absolutely floors me.
     
  17. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

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    The holding cell that existed before the cross was called "Sheol", the place of the dead. I do not believe it exists anymore. Therefore, it is not purgatory.

    The salvation work was indeed ordained before the foundations of the world, but it was not completed until Christ rose from the dead.
     
  18. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    As I said, satan does tempt.&nbsp; But, for a Christian, the desire to give in to that sin is due to a Christian acting according to their old nature.

    The old nature (nature enslaved to sinfulness) has been overcome and we have been released from it's bondage.&nbsp; It is NOT, however, gone.&nbsp; God, who knows better than any, left it there.&nbsp; It is why we will still occasionally choose to act in an unrighteous manner.&nbsp; For a Christian even these failings are learning experiences.&nbsp; We learn to trust God and not our own devices.&nbsp; We learn to have compassion for others who act according to their sinful desires.&nbsp; We learn to recognize our sinfulness.&nbsp; And, we learn to acknowledge that wrongdoing and repent of it.&nbsp; That is why it is still a part of us.&nbsp; If you believe that your sinful nature is completely obiliterated then why is it that you think you still sin?&nbsp; Let me guess, free will, right?&nbsp; Deny it if you wish, but the truth is, this broken vessel we live in will desire to sin until we are glorified.&nbsp; It is this very battle that wages war in our members that Paul talked about in Romans.&nbsp; If you think it's gone why are we instructed to "put off the old man?"&nbsp; As we grow in faith and maturity we will desire more and more to please our Father and that will be the compulsion for our actions.&nbsp; But, we will continue to sin occasionally.&nbsp; Hopefully less and less, but nonetheless, we will continue to sin.

    Riiiiight.&nbsp; Let's not blame our own sinful nature for our sins, let's blame the tempting of satan.

    Call it what you want but your doing what Adam did, what Moses and Aaron did, and what is commonplace for even most Christians nowadays.&nbsp; You're shifting at least some of the blame to someone else, in this case, satan for tempting you.

    Hmmmm...did you read my post.&nbsp; If you think all temptation originates from satan please&nbsp;explain this:

    James 1:13-15
    Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.<SUP> </SUP>But each one is tempted when he is drawn away <B>BY HIS OWN DESIRES and enticed</B>.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    Where is it that it explains that satan&nbsp;should be blamed for tempting us? :scratch:&nbsp;&nbsp;

    When you say us whom do you mean?&nbsp; Not that it really makes that big of a difference but I'm fast figuring out that you think that our ability to make choices constitutes "free will."&nbsp; Please show me, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT WE WERE, AT ANY TIME IN OUR LIVES, GIVEN FREE WILL?&nbsp; For that matter, where in the Bible does it say that anyone or anything has free will?

    Two things:

    First, aren't you the one who said you always get the answer "It's a mystery of God" when you ask Calvinists certain things?&nbsp; Sounds a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black."

    Second, I'll enlighten you.&nbsp; The reason He doesn't "step in" when certain things happen, is, pay attention now, because if it happens, guess what, it's His Will.

    Like?&nbsp; Scripture reference please.&nbsp;

    I understand that this is your effort to make it look like I'm espousing a God who gets His kicks when some child gets raped.&nbsp; The difference is that God has a plan for every event that comes into the life of His chosen.&nbsp; That plan is for their sanctification (1 Thess 4:3).&nbsp; It is for your good (Rom 8:28).&nbsp; I just can't believe that you think that God could guarantee things happen exactly as He had foreordained if He could be thwarted by the will of His own creation.&nbsp; What kind of God really, really, really desires that a person be saved and that person just says, "Naaah.&nbsp; That religion thing isn't for me" and God is powerless to ensure that His desire comes to fruition?&nbsp; Either that or you don't think God cares about any of us specifically.&nbsp; If He loved someone so much but then doesn't make sure that they experience that love what kind of love is that?&nbsp; What kind of God is that?

    According to you it wasn't completed until you made your decision.&nbsp; So I guess the death of God incarnate didn't actually accomplish anything for you.&nbsp; It just gave you the opportunity to change something for yourself.

    God bless.
     
  19. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    I also issue that open challenge to you S2SNM, or anyone else that cares to take it. Show us Biblical evidence that humans are given "free will".

    Evidently...
     
  20. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

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    Reformationist! I said God's salvation work was completed when Christ rose from the dead. My decision to accept salvation and God's work of salvation are not the same thing! God completed the work when Christ rose from the dead. Whether I accept that work or not has absolutely nothing to with the work being completed or not. I have said this over and over again. Over and over and over again. If someone makes a house for you and offers it to you. the work on the house was completed by the house maker. The person who accepts the house has nothing at all to do with the work of making the house.

    Also, you said the follwoing to me, Reformationist:
    Two things:

    First, aren't you the one who said you always get the answer "It's a mystery of God" when you ask Calvinists certain things? Sounds a bit like "the pot calling the kettle black."

    To which I say:
    But that is NOT the pot calling the kettle black, because right before that part that you posted, I had admitted that some things were a mystery. I admitted that myself, right there in black and charcoal gray. I never once said anything negative about people saying "it's a mystery of God". I wa ssimply pointing out that your side had used teh same "God is a mystery" answer that I was using, so that no one would jump all over me for using it. Go back and read that post again. You'll see what I 'm talking about. Please, if you're gonna accuse me of "the pot calling the kettle black", use an instance in which I did actually do that!

    And about the sin nature issue, you posted

    James 1:13-15
    Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.<SUP> </SUP>But each one is tempted when he is drawn away <B>BY HIS OWN DESIRES and enticed</B>.<SUP> </SUP>Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    Well, that is speaking about the desires of the flesh, not the desires of the nature. The desires of the flesh do not originate in the nature (spirit) of a Christian. The wicked desires are "conceived" when a Christian, upon receiving temptation form Satan and Demons, decides to ignore the pleadings of his own new nature, the Holy Spirit, and chooses instead to commit a sinful act. The Bible makes it very clear that the old nature is dead, but that the flesh is still corrupt. There is a big difference between the nature and the flesh. In fact, the flesh wars against the spirit (the new nature):

    "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish". Gal 5:17

    See that key phrase "...you do not do the things that you wish". That tells you right there that as a Christian, what you really want to do is follow God. The real you, the Spirit -your new nature- desires and calls out for you to do what is right in God's sight. The flesh sometimes struggles against that. But that is not because the old nature is still alive. The flesh is tempted by the Devil.

    The Greek word interpreted flesh in all pertinent New Testament verses refers to the body–the physical body with its frailties and vulnerability (to sin).

    If the sin nature is not dead, how do you explain the following verses?

    "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Gal 2:20).

    “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; all things are made new” (2 Cor 5:17).

    “Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. (Romans 6:6)

    “Don’t lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds. In its place you have clothed yourselves with a brand-new nature that is continually being renewed as you learn more and more about Christ, who created this new nature within you.” (Colossians 3:9-10)
     
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