Two Questions

[ClementofA]

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever.

For someone who claims to read Greek & have formally studied it, i am surprised at the number of obvious mistranslations you make in your posts. Every time you typed "aionion" or "aionios" above is erroneous. Neither of those words appear in Eph.3:21.

Several more accurate & literal translations read:

Young's Literal Translation
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.


Darby Bible Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Ephesians 3:21 Interlinear: to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

If that "age" refers to the period including the millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water".

 

[Hillsage]

Dr. F.W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Work of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant 'endless;' and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd." In his book, Mercy and Judgment, Dr. Farrar states (p. 378), "Since aion meant 'age,' aionios means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant 'eternity,' which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-aionios could still mean only 'belonging to eternity' and not 'lasting through it.'"

 

[Der Alte]

begin quote

<quote, ClemA>Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:
"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".
"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."
"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."<end>

end

What, pray tell, what is the Greek word for "everlasting?" I know the answer, I just want you to acknowledge it.
Let us read further in Vincent

• Vincent Word Studies in the New Testament 2 Cor 4:17
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi 1:23, lit., much more better; Rom 8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph 3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory. ​

Note in his commentary on 2 Cor 4:17 Vincent translates aionion as eternal three times.

Vincent Ephesians 3:21
Throughout all ages, world without end (εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων)
Lit., unto all the generations of the age of the ages. Eternity is made up of ages, and ages of generations. ​

In his commentary on Eph 3:21 Vincent translates tou aionios ton aionion as “eternity.”
If aion does not mean “eternal” why does Vincent translate it as eternal so many times?

Vincent Heb 5:9 The author of eternal salvation (αἴτιος σωτηρίας αἰωνίου)
Ἀίτιος, N.T.o , an adjective, causing. Comp. captain of salvation, Heb_2:10. The phrase σωτηρία αὀώνιος eternal salvation N.T.o , but see lxx, Isaiah 15:17. Not everlasting salvation, but a salvation of which all the conditions, attainments, privileges, and rewards transcend the conditions and limitations of time. ​

Sounds to me like Vincent just described everlasting.

Vincent Heb 9:12
Eternal, see or Heb_6:2. Not mere duration is contemplated, but quality; a redemption answering in its quality to that age when all the conditions of time shall be no more: ​

Vincent just described aionios as everlasting again.

Vincent 2 Pet 1:11 Everlasting kingdom (αἰώνιον βασιλείαν)
In the first epistle, Peter designated the believer's future as an inheritance; here he calls it a kingdom. Eternal as Rev., is better than everlasting, since the word includes more than duration of time.​

Aionios does not mean everlasting because is better than everlasting, since the word includes more than duration of time. I think this is a good example of double talk.

1 John 1:2
That eternal life (τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον)
A particularly faulty translation, since it utterly fails to express the development of the idea of life, which is distinctly contemplated by the original. Render, as Rev., the life, the eternal life; or the life, even the eternal life. For a similar repetition of the article compare 1Jo_2:8; 1Jo_4:9; 2Jo_1:11. This particular phrase occurs only here and Joh_2:25. John uses ζωὴ αἰώνιος eternal life, and ἡ αἰώνιος ζωη the eternal life, the former expressing the general conception of life eternal, and the latter eternal life as the special gift of Christ. Αἰώνιος eternal, describes the life in its quality of not being measured by time, a larger idea than that of mere duration. ​

Here Vincent translated ainios as “eternal” eight times. Note another double talk description of aionios. "eternal, describes the life in its quality of not being measured by time, [i.e. it includes living forever but] is, a larger idea than that of mere duration."

John 3:15 Believeth in Him (πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν)
The best texts read ἐν αὐτῷ, construing with have eternal life, and rendering may in Him have eternal life,. So Rev.
Should not perish, but The best texts omit.
Have eternal life, A characteristic phrase of John for live forever. See Joh_3:16, Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_6:54; 1Jo_3:15; 1Jo_5:12. ​

Live forever sound like eternal to me.

​

 

[Der Alte]

For someone who claims to read Greek & have formally studied it, i am surprised at the number of obvious mistranslations you make in your posts. Every time you typed "aionion" or "aionios" above is erroneous. Neither of those words appear in Eph.3:21.

Irrelevant making a major issue of a minor typo while ignoring the meat of my post.

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionos] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionon] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionos ton aionon” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionos ton aionon” means forever and ever.
.....If the generations will someday end then του αιωνος των αιωνων does not mean for ever and ever. Where does scripture record that generations will end?

Several more accurate & literal translations read:

Irrelevant.

If that "age" refers to the period including the millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water".

Another specious argument which does not address my argument at all and certainly does not refute anything. I corrected the typos. Try carefully reading what I said and addressing that?

 

[ClementofA]

<quote, ClemA>Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:
"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".
"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."
"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."
"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."
"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."<end>
What, pray tell, what is the Greek word for "everlasting?" I know the answer, I just want you to acknowledge it.

​

I would guess that he is referring to AIDIOS, the word the Pharisees used in regards to the eschatological punishment of the wicked. OTOH, God never used that word of the final destiny of any wicked being. Instead, for eschatological punishment, God chose the words aion and aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek:

Two Questions

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

 

[ClementofA]

Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionos] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionon] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionos ton aionon” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionos ton aionon” means forever and ever.
.....If the generations will someday end then του αιωνος των αιωνων does not mean for ever and ever. Where does scripture record that generations will end?

Several more accurate & literal translations read:

Young's Literal Translation
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.


Darby Bible Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Ephesians 3:21 Interlinear: to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

If that "age" refers to the period including the millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water".

Another specious argument which does not address my argument at all and certainly does not refute anything. I corrected the typos. Try carefully reading what I said and addressing that?

Your argument was based on the "mistranslation "throughout all generations" while the literal translations i posted say "unto/to all generations". That alone defeats your argument. For if the time period is only up "to" the time of the last generation beginning, then it is not forever. Since your argument requires the phrase mean forever & it doesn't, your argument therefore fails.

Furthermore, secondly, if the reference is to a single finite age, then the reference to generations is only to the generations within that finite age, not to any generations beyond it. So that is a second strike against your logic & the argument fails again.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

Here is the complete definition of the Greek word "telos", from BDAG, which your cherry picked reference claims means "consummation."

I also gave you:

Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

And could add several more almost identical literal translations, unlike the deceptive version you posted with "forever" in it.

I invite your attention to the first paragraph. Also note the main definitions indicated by a circled number, e.g.①. Please show me where "consummation" is a definition?

The article does use the word "consummation". It is synonymous with "end", "finish".

The article also states ""The possibility of repenting ἔχει τέλος is at an end Hv 2, 2, 5." Such language is never used in the Scriptures.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

This source is written by a person who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Koine Greek.

Likewise with all your posts. However my source contains the thoughts of a number of scholars:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

 

[ClementofA]

Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

Acts of the Apostles 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

Acts of the Apostles 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

Acts of the Apostles 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

Acts of the Apostles 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all the world" worship the goddess Diana?

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
.....Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The word "world" cannot mean the entire earth because "the whole world" and "all the world" are used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."
.....There is a grammatical term for how "world" is used in these passages. Do you know what that term is and how it relates to this discussion?

What relevance does this have to do with my post about the word aion?

Do you think aion means "forever" when Scripture says it has an "end"?

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[Hillsage]

What relevance does this have to do with my post about the word aion?

Do you think aion means "forever" when Scripture says it has an "end"?

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

I'd like to comment on the relevance if I may. All the soul does is measure 'temporal' spiritual growth on this side of eternity for 'eternal' rewards on the other side. On this side of eternity it saves us from this world we live in and the 'temporal' curses and 'judgments' which we reap here and now in the 'wicked generation' we presently live in, as a result of sins we commit. That is the very salvation of the very first sermon preached on the day of Pentecost when BDAG theology would have lined up with the ignorant pharisees, and missed the gospel.

Acts 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
The GOSPEL according to St Peter.

Certainly would have been a good time to tell the thousands who were going to believe and be baptized 'that day'...that saving them selves from ETERNAL HELL was really 'the gospel'.

 

[Der Alte]

begin quote

<quoteClemA>I would guess that he is referring to AIDIOS, the word the Pharisees used in regards to the eschatological punishment of the wicked. OTOH, God never used that word of the final destiny of any wicked being. Instead, for eschatological punishment, God chose the words aion and aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek:<end>

end

You guess? Why don't you quote the rest of the article you quoted where Vincent said "There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded." Seems like you consider Vincent correct when he supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions but when he contradicts them, waffles.
.....Please show me exactly where God chose between aidios and aion/aidios? In that same article you quoted Vincent describes αιωνιον thus.

The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new eon, - the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.​

 

[Der Alte]

begin quote

I also gave you:
Darby Bible Translation
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.
And could add several more almost identical literal translations, unlike the deceptive version you posted with "forever" in it.

end

Do you honestly think this version does not mean, forever? This is Hebrew poetry which states the same thing in two different ways. "reign"="kingdom," "εις τους αιωνας"="shall not be an end."
Poetry in the Hebrew Bible
Can you explain how can the reign of Jesus only last for a finite age but His kingdom, that which He reign over, shall not end?
.....What is deceptive is not my sources but the spurious claim that something is "literal" which somehow supposedly makes it more valid. I have proved that wrong many times BDAG.

The article does use the word "consummation". It is synonymous with "end", "finish".

No it is not!

The article also states ""The possibility of repenting ἔχει τέλος is at an end Hv 2, 2, 5." Such language is never used in the Scripture

s.

You are entitled to you opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

Likewise with all your posts. However my source contains the thoughts of a number of scholars:..

I just saw where Beaucamin quoted Vincent on the first page. I have already shown that Vincent is ambivalent on aion/aionios.
Beauchamin says this "Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal."

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you for this unsupported opinion.

Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

Acts of the Apostles 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

Acts of the Apostles 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

Acts of the Apostles 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

Acts of the Apostles 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all the world" worship the goddess Diana?

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
.....Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The word "world" cannot mean the entire earth because "the whole world" and "all the world" are used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."
.....There is a grammatical term for how "world" is used in these passages. Do you know what that term is and how it relates to this discussion?
This source is written by a person who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Koine Greek.

What relevance does this have to do with my post about the word aion?
Do you think aion means "forever" when Scripture says it has an "end"?..

Read my post quoted above. I quoted 13 verses in which "whole world/all the world" refers to something which cannot be the entire planet earth, e.g. Matthew 16:26, Mark 8:36 and Luke 9:25. Can a person literally gain the whole world? Does that mean "whole world/all the world" cannot mean the entire planet earth

 

[Der Alte]

Begin quote

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. ...

end

This is blatantly false. The words "after aionios life" only occur one time in Origen's writings not "a number of times."

begin quote

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":
(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

end

"(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."
The Commentary of Origen on S. John's Gospel: The Text Revised with a Critical Introduction and ...​

Origen does say "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life" one and only one time, But the context has nothing to do with the faithful who have "eternal life."
"the fountain ... leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." Only the fountain leaps, perhaps into the father after it leaps into eternal life. Only the father is "beyond eternal life."
In this same commentary Origen said this about eternal life.

(59) He is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish , when one partakes of it. P. 81​

Eternal life, “never perishes,””remains,””is not taken away,””is not consumed” and “does not perish”

 

[ClementofA]

You guess? Why don't you quote the rest of the article you quoted where Vincent said "There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

He was obviously talking about another word besides aionios. From his commentary on Jude 1:6 it is evident that word is aidios:

"Everlasting (ἀΐδίοις)" (Vincent)

Jude 1:6 Commentaries: And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

 

[ClementofA]

I just saw where Beaucamin quoted Vincent on the first page. I have already shown that Vincent is ambivalent on aion/aionios.

Ambivalent or you just don't understand what he's talking about. He was a Greek scholar, so quite a bit above your pay grade.

 

[ClementofA]

Read my post quoted above. I quoted 13 verses in which "whole world/all the world" refers to something which cannot be the entire planet earth, e.g. Matthew 16:26, Mark 8:36 and Luke 9:25. Can a person literally gain the whole world? Does that mean "whole world/all the world" cannot mean the entire planet earth

Which was your reply to my questions as follows:

What relevance does this have to do with my post about the word aion?
Do you think aion means "forever" when Scripture says it has an "end"?

You said "Can a person literally gain the whole world?"

1) Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
2) Jesus is speaking hypothetically.
3) The "whole world" there is literal. That humans cannot gain the whole world is irrelevant to the fact that Jesus is literally talking about the whole world.
4) But, again, what does this have to do with an aion that ends being "forever"? You keep dodging the question.

Is Jesus here speaking of the end of the age(aion):

Mt.24:3b what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

Or the end of forever?

If your claim is that is a figurative hyperbolic use of aion, why are there no scholars, lexicons, church fathers or commentaries in the past 2000 years that agree with you? And very many opposed.

 

[ClementofA]

Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. ...
This is blatantly false. The words "after aionios life" only occur one time in Origen's writings not "a number of times."

It's not false. It's just that you failed to distinguish between the concept of - after aionios life - & a quotation of those exact words, words which you put in quotes, but i didn't. In the passage i quoted Origen twice refers to the "concept" i referred to in speaking of (1) after aionios life & (2) beyond aionios life. Furthermore, as i have given to you several times before, he expresses the same idea, or concept, elsewhere in his writings.

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":
(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

"(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) When the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him."
The Commentary of Origen on S. John's Gospel: The Text Revised with a Critical Introduction and ...​

Origen does say "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life" one and only one time, But the context has nothing to do with the faithful who have "eternal life."
"the fountain ... leaps into eternal life. And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." Only the fountain leaps, perhaps into the father after it leaps into eternal life. Only the father is "beyond eternal life."

The fountain leaps into aionion(eonian) life. And "after" this "eonian life" (showing eonian life is finite).

The fountain/well of life is in the believers:

John 7:38-39
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to aionion LIFE."

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by: Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

Likewise Origen believed the phrase "eons of the eons", which is equivalent to aionion in the Scriptures (compare Mt.25:41 to Rev.20:10), is finite:

"Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161)." Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

In this same commentary Origen said this about eternal life.

(59) He is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish , when one partakes of it. P. 81​

Eternal life, “never perishes,””remains,””is not taken away,””is not consumed” and “does not perish”

Those are the words of Heracleon, not Origen. Origen is quoting Heracleon's opinion. Therefore Origen gives no opinion re aionion in (60) above, though in (19) he speaks of
"after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life".

Moreover even the words of Heracleon do not speak of aionios life, but of life that is (1) aionios and (2) never perishes, etc. If aionios meant eternal, to add "and never perishes" would be superfluous, redundant & pointless.

BTW your rendering of ἀναλίσκω as "remains" is incorrect. That Greek word means to "consume", etc:

Strong's Greek: 355. ἀναλίσκω (analiskó) -- to expend, consume

Greek Word Study Tool

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀνα_λίσκω

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"

Hell's Destruction

 

[ClementofA]

No it is not!

Wrong:

"Synonyms of consummation. capper, close, closing, conclusion, END, endgame, ending, finale, finis, FINISH, grand finale, home stretch, mop-up, windup, wrap-up." Thesaurus results for CONSUMMATION

Der Alter had replied to my remark here:

The article does use the word "consummation". It is synonymous with "end", "finish".

You are entitled to you opinion.

It's not an opinion. It's fact.

Der Alter had replied to my remark here re a BDAG lexicon article:

The article also states ""The possibility of repenting ἔχει τέλος is at an end Hv 2, 2, 5." Such language is NEVER used in the Scripturs.