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Featured Two Questions

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by TogetherInHim, Jun 17, 2018.

  1. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter


    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. (John11:25)​

    He that believes in Jesus, even though he dies, shall live again, having been born again in the spirit. He that does not believe in Jesus, perishes, having only mortal life...

    Watch the brief video summary of the study: www.WhoGoesToHell.com

    There is more to this than most think or care to look into...
  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    G684 ἀπώλεια apōleia
    ὄλεθρος olethros
    καθαίρεσις kathairesis
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    United States
    In Relationship
    The Christian hope is resurrection and life in the Age to Come.

    That means that in Christian teaching death is understood to be overcome and defeated by Christ, and that in Him we likewise have hope in victory over death in the resurrection. The day is coming when this mortal body will be transformed and conformed to be like the glorious and immortal body which Christ has.

    Scripture teaches that at the resurrection both the righteous and the wicked are raised up, the Christian hope of resurrection is that in the resurrection we are transformed, glorified, and have everlasting life in the Age to Come. The resurrection of the wicked is a resurrection to condemnation and judgment.

    John 3:16 does not teach annihilationism or conditional immortality. It teaches that apart from the life we receive in Jesus Christ our end is perishing/destruction.

    What, exactly, this destruction means big picture is part of a larger theological issue that involves other biblical forms of language, including the apocalyptic language of the lake of fire/second death, as well as the aionios fire of Gehenna Christ mentions in the Gospels. How we, ultimately, comprehend this notion of destruction is largely going to be shaped by our general eschatological perspectives on these other subjects.

    Personally, I simply don't believe there is sufficient information available to us in Scripture to provide anything resembling a definitive answer to such questions; Scripture isn't particularly interested in giving us an answer about what the ultimate fate of the wicked is beyond that it's not good. The ambiguity and complexity of language is why there have been various views put forward throughout history, and the Church has never had a definitive statement on such things.

  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter


    That has been answered several times before:

    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

    The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

    Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

    Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

    1."God exists today"
    2. Today "is finite"
    3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
    4. God is also immortal.
    5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
    6. Both are true at the same time.

    Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

    Thus your argument is refuted.

    Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':


    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.


    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    "This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/7-24.htm

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration.

    After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).

    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:


    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:


    and also this:

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter

    Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on. That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing. Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    The eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

    Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
    who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
    Concordant Literal Translation
    Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
    Rotherham's Emphasized Version
    Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
    Emphatic Diaglott NT
    the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
    Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
    ...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

    http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6

    Re Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "


    The Greek text is on p.275ff of the following url. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)


    The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

    Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

    Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.

  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).

    In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV) and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).

    Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".

    Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life. Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


    Darby Bible Translation
    and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

    This is what it actually literally says:

    Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

    It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

    Here is the full verse with context:

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
    Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

    Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.

    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:


    Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @


    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

    Evidently this may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says here in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon".

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

    Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

    Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

    Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.

    Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all
    will recieve life (verses 18-19 of the same book of Romans & chapter 5).

    None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

    "The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false



  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    Not necessarily. It may have just burned out as fires tend to do. Nowhere does Scripture say it returned to the heavens after burning Sodom.

    Does that opinion have anything to support it, e.g. Scripture? OTOH, consider the following historical evidence:

    "But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

    " "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

    " "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
    upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

    " "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

    " "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)."

    "There are historical reports as late as the 17th, 18th and even 19th Centuries that suggest that the region around the Dead Sea continued to reek of sulfur and contain pockets of "subterranean fire," from which clouds of smoke would occasionally rise."


    "When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

    For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

    John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

    "and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

    " "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

    "Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

    " "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

    2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  8. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    Where is that said in the Bible?
  9. TogetherInHim

    TogetherInHim Newbie Supporter

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25)​

    Every reference to "everlasting" means "eternal". This means that the "place" described (hell) is eternal. We know that the devil and all angels are "eternal" beings which means that they are "immortal" and cannot perish as those who are "mortal" will perish unless given "eternal" life from Christ.

    The Lord "prepared" this "eternal" dwelling place to contain/imprison "eternal" beings; Satan and his angels after the judgment.

    However Jesus continues at the judgment...

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25)​

    The sobering part, and reason for this discussion, is that Jesus is also judging those from whom he expected something. These individuals appear in the "eternal" realm which means that they were raised from the dead as Christ promised to those who accepted his free offer of "eternal" life. Yet these individuals did not "do" some things he described as necessary to "enter" the kingdom of heaven.

    If these "works" are about "salvation" (the covenant of "eternal" life given to those who believe in Jesus and ask), then salvation is by "works". We know that salvation is the free gift of God and requires no works, yet these individuals are sent to hell for failing to "do" some things that distinguished them from those who "did do" some things that he commended and "entered" the kingdom.

    What we refuse to believe is that our "entrance" into our "inheritance" of the kingdom of heaven is attached to something that the Lord requires. Once we have received salvation from the curse of death that Adam brought into the world, been given the spirit of truth and an inheritance of a "promised land" (the kingdom of heaven), then we must "strive to enter" or forfeit as did the Jews who failed to enter their promised land.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

    "Doeth"? Works to enter the kingdom? Works demonstrate that those to whom he gave eternal life and the Holy Spirit, must have the love of Christ bearing fruit accordingly.

    When Jesus says to them, "I never knew you" he means that he doesn't "know them" in an interactive way so that they will follow him and bear fruit as he requires. Certainly he "knows" about their "existence".

    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Jesus is saying that once we are grafted into the Vine (Jesus), only then can fruit be expected. So he must be speaking to those to whom he has given salvation or there would be no expectation of fruit bearing and the consequences for failure to do so.

    Watch the brief video summary of the study we are discussing so you can understand the topic completely: www.WhoGoesToHell.com
  10. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    And these specious copy/paste arguments have been refuted many times before. I write my own posts I do not, like some folks, copy/paste big blocks of canned arguments from biased websites.
    What makes Young's literal? Just because a translator says something is literal does not make it so.
    Note the second word "IF."
    Ignores the verses which do not fit the assumption, argument refuted.
    Long specious argument which ignores the word "temporal," i.e. temporary, in the same passage.
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;

    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[temporary][πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    As I said, which you ignored, aionios is contrasted with both "for a moment" and "temporal/temporary" which clearly defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.
    Is it your argument that God replaces our temporary tabernacle, i.e. bodies, which are destroyed, and replaces them with another tabernacle, body, that is also temporary only a little longer but is ultimately also destroyed?

    Once again you deceptively ignore some parts of the post to further a false argument. You addressed only vs. 23 not vs. 25. Some mss. do not include "aion" in vs. 23 but all mss. do include "aion" in vs. 25
    1 Peter 1:23(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …​

    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    Let me know when we can have a frank, reasoned discussion, let me know.
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter


    Wrong! Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':


    Still wrong (see above), as you post the same error that i already exposed above. Furthermore you are also wrong in claiming that the English word "temporary" cannot be the opposite of aionios as a finite age. In Webster's dictionary the first definition of "temporary" does not list "eternal" as an antonym of "tempoary", but instead "long-term, permanent": Thesaurus results for TEMPORARY

    A permanent driver's licence is "long-term" & more lasting than a temporary driver's licence, but neither are eternal.

    It may be significant to note that these verses do not speak of what is "invisible" (aoratos, Strongs 517), but of what is not "seen" (blepo, Strongs 991). Something that is merely not seen (or, not observed) may not be something which is "invisible" in the sense that it cannot be seen.

    As Tom L remarks, in the context of 2 Cor.4:17-5:1 "the things not seen at this time is the glory of the afterlife and the resurrection body":

    17 For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory, 18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian. 1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. (CLV)

    Tom L adds "the word invisible does not appear in the text and Paul is not claiming the resurrection body is invisible...He compares...things which we now see with the things of the afterlife which are not seen at this time...It is not that they are invisible just that they are not seen now...In particular he speak of the glories of the afterlife and the resurrection body God has in store for believers...These things are unseen because we don't experience them at this time not because they are invisible...".
    The folly of full Preterism - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

    "4340 próskairos – (an adjective, derived from 4314 /prós, "motion towards, with" and 2540 /kairós, "a season") – properly, a limited time of opportunity; fleeting, temporary ("only lasts for a while")." Strong's Greek: 4340. πρόσκαιρος (proskairos) -- in season, i.e. temporary

    "Something need not be endless if it is contrasted with "seasons." Today we have the four seasons. So if I were to suffer for two seasons with the promise that I would have glory in the eon to come, would that eon to come have to be eternal since it is contrasted with "two seasons"? No."

    "2Co 4:18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian."

    "(YLT) we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during."

    Read more: Daniel O. McClellan (Old Testament, spiritual, bless, eternal) - Christianity -  - Page 9 - City-Data Forum

    "It is often claimed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18, “eonian” (aiõnion) must mean “eternal” because it is set in contrast to the word “temporal,” meaning pertaining to time as opposed to eternity. The Greek word, however, translated “temporal” in the AV (proskaira) has no connection with the word for “time” (chronos); in English form, the Greek is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means “temporary” or “for [only] a part of a season.”

    "Contrastive terms need not be antithetical in meaning. Our Lord deemed it sufficient contrast to compare temporary (i.e., a part of a season) with a single season–less than a year (Matt.13:21). Yet here, in 2 Corinthians 4:18, while the contrast is far greater, it does not follow that it is therefore infinite. The contrast is between our afflictions, which last, so to say, but for a brief “partial season,” and our promised, long-enduring “eonian” glory...The eonian life and glory which is our special portion (cp 1 Tim.4:10b; 2 Tim.2:10,11), no more debars the endless life and glory in which we shall participate as well (cp Luke 1:33b; 1 Thess.4:17b; 1Cor.15:28), than youthful happiness precludes the happiness of maturity.” Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two
    A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Four

    "Now, in this passage, Paul is using proskairos and aiónios in contrast with each other. But notice that he is not contrasting time (which would be the word "chronos" in Greek) with timelessness. Instead, he is contrasting two different measures of temporal duration (i.e., two different measures of time). In Matthew 13:21, Christ employs proskairos to denote a relatively short measure of time. It is used in reference to those who hear the gospel and endure in their faith for only "a short while" in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit. Christ is not contrasting a temporary period of time with an endless measure of time; rather, Christ is contrasting a relatively short measure of time which does not result in the production of "fruit" with a relatively longer period of time that does (similarly, in Hebrews 11:25, proskairos is translated "a short season" or "fleeting," and denotes the relatively short-lived enjoyment that sin brings). But the opposite of proskairos isn't endless duration, for proskairos doesn't mean finite duration. Its meaning is clearly relative to whatever is in view. Again, when Christ uses the word in Matt 13:21, he isn't contrasting a person who endures in his faith for a finite period of time with a person who endures in his faith for an infinite period of time; he's contrasting a relatively short period of time with a relatively longer period of time (i.e., relative to a person's mortal lifespan)."

    "In the context of 2 Corinthians 4-5, proskairos conveys a relatively short measure of time (i.e., duration confined to a mortal lifetime, during which time one can see and experience one's mortal self "wasting away"). Aiónios, on the other hand, while not meaning endless duration, denotes a much longer duration of time..."


    In 2 Cor.4:17-18 these things which are but temporary (for a "season") are compared with what is eonian, agian, lasting, for an age or ages, pertaining to an eon or eons, much longer periods of time than a mere season.

    "Paul is not making a contrast between time and eternity, as the Authorized Version’s terms “temporal” (pertaining to time, from the Latin tempus) and “eternal” would suggest."

  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    A more literal & accurate version says:

    2 Cor.5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. (CLV)

    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.

    No. The mortal bodies are not "destroyed" or annihilated, but "dissolved" (2 Cor.5:1) & to be resurrected, so they are not a "temporary tabernacle". Neither does 2 Cor.5:1 say they are "temporary".
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    Aion is not defined by one verse. Usage & context determine meaning in any particular context. No single usage in a single context defines the meaning of a word for all other contexts.

    Furthermore, your argument has holes in it & has not been proven to be anything more than a theory, a possibility, a supposition. As the following shows:

    Two different Greek words are rendered "word" in v.23 & v.25 of your version. In v.25 it means utterance related to the gospel. The gospel message Peter spoke of "repent" etc is not going to be proclaimed forever:

    "Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Will Peter be preaching "repent" while in heaven? Is the "good news" (i.e. gospel) of "repent and believe" going to be preached through all eternity? To who?

    Nothing in v.25 proves the literal translation "to the age" is wrong:

    1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.
    1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.

    OTOH, contrary to your opinion of defining aion as "eternal", aion is defined (as scholars of the past 2000 years agree, in opposition to you), as various durations, age, eon, epoch, etc. And Scripture proves it is used to refer to various period of time that are of finite duration:

    "Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

    ¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

    ¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

    ¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

    ¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

    ¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

    ¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

    ¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

    ¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

    ¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

    ¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
    (1Co. 10:11)

    ¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

    ¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

    ¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

    ¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

    ¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

    ¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

    ¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

    ¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

    ¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

    ¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

    ¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

    How can we say…

    ¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

    ¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

    ¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    You continue to copy/paste all of your arguments. As I have said many times just because some translator says something in "literal" that does not make it so. Here is the complete definition of the Greek word "telos", from BDAG, which your cherry picked reference claims means "consummation." I invite your attention to the first paragraph. Also note the main definitions indicated by a circled number, e.g.①. Please show me where "consummation" is a definition?
    τέλος, ους, τό (Hom.+)
    a point of time marking the end of a duration, end, termination, cessation (Nicol. Dam.: 90 Fgm. 130 §139 Jac. τέλος τ. Βίου Καίσαρος; TestAbr A 1 p. 78, 5 [Stone p. 4] τῆς ζωῆς; Maximus Tyr. 13, 9d ἀπιστίας) τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἔσται τέλος Lk 1:33. μήτε ἀρχὴν ἡμερῶν μήτε ζωῆς τέλος ἔχων Hb 7:3. τὸ τέλος τοῦ καταργουμένου the end of the fading (splendor) 2 Cor 3:13. τέλος νόμου Χριστός Ro 10:4 (perh. 3 below). πάντων τὸ τέλος ἤγγικεν the end of all things is near 1 Pt 4:7. τὸ τ. Ἰερουσαλήμ GPt 7:25. τὸ τέλος κυρίου Js 5:11 is oft. (fr. Augustine to ABischoff, ZNW 7, 1906, 274–79) incorrectly taken to mean the end=the death (this is what τέλος means e.g. TestAbr A 4, p. 81, 14 [Stone p. 10]; Appian, Syr. 64 §342, Bell. Civ. 1, 107 §501; 3, 98 §408; Arrian, Anab. 3, 22, 2; 7, 24, 1) of the Lord Jesus (s. 3 below). τ̣ὸ̣ [τέλο]ς (or τ̣ε̣[λο]ς) τῶν φαινο[με]νων (Till’s rdg. of Ox 1081, 29f after the Coptic SJCh 90, 6, in place of τ̣ὸ̣ [φῶ]ς τῶν φαινο[μέ]νων) the end of the things that are apparent. τέλος ἔχειν have an end, be at an end (X., An. 6, 5, 2; Pla., Phdr. 241d, Rep. 3, 392c; Diod S 14, 18, 8; 16, 91, 2) Mk 3:26 (opp. στῆναι). The possibility of repenting ἔχει τέλος is at an end Hv 2, 2, 5. Of the consummation that comes to prophecies when they are fulfilled (Xenophon Eph. 5, 1, 13; Jos., Ant. 2, 73; 4, 125; 10, 35; SibOr 3, 211): revelations Hv 3, 3, 2. So perh. τὸ περὶ ἐμοῦ τέλος ἔχει the references (in the Scriptures) to me are being fulfilled Lk 22:37; also prob. is my life’s work is at an end (cp. Diod S 20, 95, 1 τέλος ἔχειν of siege-machines, the construction of which entailed a great deal of hard work: be completed; Plut., Mor. 615e; Jos., Vi. 154).
    ② the last part of a process, close, conclusion, esp. of the last things, the final act in the cosmic drama (Sb 8422, 10 [7 B.C.] τοῦτο γάρ ἐστι τέλος; TestAbr A 13 p. 92, 19 [Stone p. 32] τῆς κρίσεως ἐκείνης τὸ τέλος; ApcEsdr 3:13 ἐγγύς ἐστιν τὸ τέλος; Iren., 1, 10, 3 [Harv. I 96, 8] περὶ τοῦ τ. καὶ τῶν μέλλόντων)
    ⓐ Mt 24:6, 14; Mk 13:7; Lk 21:9; PtK 2 p. 13, 22. Perh. 1 Cor 15:24, if ἔσται is to be supplied w. εἶτα τὸ τέλος then the end will come (so JHéring, RHPR 12, ’33, 300–320; s. below, bα and 4). ἔχει τέλος the end is here Hv 3, 8, 9. On τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰώνων 1 Cor 10:11 s. αἰών 2b and 5 below; also MBogle, ET 67, ’56, 246f: τ.=‘mystery’.—PVolz, D. Eschatologie d. jüd. Gemeinde im ntl. Zeitalter ’34; Bousset, Rel.3 202–301; EHaupt, Die eschatol. Aussagen Jesu in den synopt. Evangelien 1895; HSharman, The Teaching of Jesus about the Future acc. to the Synopt. Gospels 1909; FSpitta, Die grosse eschatol. Rede Jesu: StKr 82, 1909, 348–401; EvDobschütz, The Eschatology of the Gospels 1910, Zur Eschatol. der Ev.: StKr 84, 1911, 1–20; PCorssen, Das apokalypt. Flugblatt in der synopt. überl.: Wochenschr. für klass. Philol. 32, 1915, nos. 30f; 33f; DVölter, Die eschat. Rede Jesu: SchTZ 32, 1915, 180–202; KWeiss (s. τελέω 1); JWeiss, Das Urchristent. 1917, 60–98; JJeremias, Jesus als Weltvollender 1930; WKümmel, Die Eschatologie der Ev.: ThBl 15, ’36, 225–41, Verheissg. u. Erfüllg. ’45; CCadoux, The Historic Mission of Jesus ’41 (eschat. of the synoptics); HPreisker, Das Ethos des Urchristentums ’49; AStrobel, Untersuchungen zum eschat. Verzögerungsproblem, ’61. Billerb. IV 799–976. S. also ἀνάστασις 2b, end.—In contrast to ἀρχή: B 1:6ab; IEph 14:1ab; IMg 13:1. Of God Rv 1:8 v.l.; 21:6; 22:13 (Ar. 4, 2; Just., D. 7, 2; Mel., P. 105, 113f; s. also ἀρχή 2).
    ⓑ adverbial expressions
    α. adv. acc. τὸ τέλος finally (Pla. et al.; BGU 1024 VII, 23; B-D-F §160; s. Rob. 486–88; Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 8].—The customary use in this case is τέλος without the art.: ViAm 1 [p. 81, 11 Sch.]) 1 Pt 3:8. εἶτα τὸ τέλος 1 Cor 15:24 is classed here by Hofmann2; FBurkitt, JTS 17, 1916, 384f; KBarth, Die Auferstehung der Toten2 1926, 96 (s. 2a above and 4 below).
    β. to the end, to the last: ἄχρι τέλους Hb 6:11; Rv 2:26; ἕως τέλους (Da 6:27 Theod.; JosAs 12:3) 1 Cor 1:8; 2 Cor 1:13 (here, too, it means to the end=until the parousia [Windisch, Sickenberger, NRSV] rather than ‘fully’ [Ltzm., Hdb.; RSV ’46]); Hs 9, 27, 3; μέχρι τέλους (Phocylides [VI B.C.] 17 Diehl3 ἐξ ἀρχῆς μέχρι τέλους; Chariton 4, 7, 8; Appian, Mithrid. 112 §550; Polyaenus 4, 6, 11; POxy 416, 3; PTebt 420, 18; Wsd 16:5; 19:1; Jos., Vi. 406) Hb 3:6 v.l., 14; Dg 10:7. S. also εἰς τέλος (γ below).
    γ. εἰς τέλος in the end, finally (Hdt. 3, 40 et al.; PTebt 38, 11 [113 B.C.]; 49, 12; Gen 46:4; GrBar 13:2; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 18, 2) Lk 18:5. σωθῆναι 2 Cl 19:3.—To the end, until the end (Epict. 1, 7, 17; Jos., Ant. 19, 96; JosAs 23:5) Mt 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13; IEph 14:2; IRo 10:3.—Forever, through all eternity (Dionys. Hal. 13, 88, 3; Ps 9:19; 76:9; 1 Ch 28:9; Da 3:34) ἔφθασεν ἐπʼ αὐτοὺς ἡ ὀργὴ εἰς τέλος 1 Th 2:16 (s. also below and cp. TestLevi 6:11, concerning which there is a variety of opinion). εἰς τέλος ἀπολέσαι τὴν ζωήν lose one’s life forever Hs 8, 8, 5b.—Decisively, extremely, fully, altogether (Polyb. 1, 20, 7; 10; 12, 27, 3 and oft.; Diod S 18, 57, 1 ταπεινωθέντες εἰς τ.=ruined utterly; Lucian, Philop. 14; Appian, Bell. Mithr. 44 §174; OGI 90, 12 [II B.C.]; PTebt 38, 11 [II B.C.]; 49, 11; 793 [s. οὖς 1]; Josh 8:24; 2 Ch 12:12; Ps 73:1; Job 6:9; PsSol 1:1; TestAbr A 13 p. 92, 23 [Stone p. 32]; ApcMos 19; Jos., Vi. 24; Just., A I, 44, 12; Diodorus on Ps 51:7: MPG 33, 1589b εἰς τέλος τουτέστι παντελῶς) 1 Th 2:16 (forever is also prob.; s. above); B 4:7; 10:5; 19:11. ἱλαρὰ εἰς τέλος ἦν she was quite cheerful Hv 3, 10, 5. Cp. 3, 7, 2; m 12, 2, 3; Hs 6, 2, 3; 8, 6, 4; 8, 8, 2; 5a; 8, 9, 3; 9, 14, 2.—For εἰς τέλος ἠγάπησεν αὐτούς J 13:1 s. εἰς 3.
    δ. ἐν τέλει at the end (opp. πρὸ αἰώνων) IMg 6:1.
    ③ the goal toward which a movement is being directed, end, goal, outcome (Dio Chrys. 67 [17], 3; Epict. 1, 30, 4; 3, 24, 7; Maximus Tyr. 20, 3b; Jos., Ant. 9, 73; TestAsh 1:3; ἡ θεία παίδευσις καὶ εἰσαγωγὴν ἔχει καὶ προκοπὴν καὶ τ. Did., Gen. 69, 9) Mt 26:58. τὸ τέλος κυρίου the outcome which the Lord brought about in the case of Job’s trials Js 5:11 (Diod S 20, 13, 3 τὸ δαιμόνιον τοῖς ὑπερηφάνως διαλογιζομένοις τὸ τέλος τῶν κατελπισθέντων εἰς τοὐναντίον μετατίθησιν=the divinity, in the case of the arrogant, turns the outcome of what they hoped for to the opposite.—On Js 5:11 s. 1 above). τὸ τέλος τῆς παραγγελίας ἐστὶν ἀγάπη the instruction has love as its aim 1 Ti 1:5 (Ἐπίκουρος … λέγων τὸ τ. τῆς σοφίας εἶναι ἡδονήν Hippol., Ref. 1, 22, 4. τ.=‘goal’ or ‘purpose’: Epict. 1, 20, 15; 4, 8, 12; Diog. L. 2, 87; Just., D. 2, 6). Perh. this is the place for Ro 10:4, in the sense that Christ is the goal and the termination of the law at the same time, somewhat in the sense of Gal 3:24f (schol. on Pla., Leg. 625d τέλος τῶν νόμων=goal of the laws; Plut., Mor. 780e δίκη … νόμου τέλος ἐστί; FFlückiger, TZ 11, ’55, 153–57; difft. RJewett, Int 39, ’85, 341–56, Christ as goal but without repudiation of the law; cp. SBechtler, CBQ 56, ’94, 288–308); s. 1.—Esp. also of the final goal toward which pers. and things are striving, of the outcome or destiny which awaits them in accordance w. their nature (TestAsh 6:4; Philo, Exs. 162, Virt. 182; Just., A II, 3, 7; Ath., R. 24 p. 77, 19; Aelian, VH 3, 43; Alciphron 4, 7, 8; Procop. Soph., Ep. 154; τὸ τ. ὁρόμου Orig., C. Cels. 7, 52, 6) τὸ τέλος ἐκείνων θάνατος … τὸ τέλος ζωὴν αἰώνιον Ro 6:21f. Cp. 2 Cor 11:15; Phil 3:19 (HKoester, NTS 8, ’61/62, 325f): perh. a play on a mystery term; 1 Pt 4:17 (cp. 2 Macc 7:30–38); Hb 6:8. κομιζόμενοι τὸ τέλος τῆς πίστεως 1 Pt 1:9. τέλος τὰ πράγματα ἔχει all things have a goal or final destiny (i.e. death or life) IMg 5:1 (τέλος ἔχειν as Plut., Mor. 382e; Polyaenus 4, 2, 11 τέλος οὐκ ἔσχεν ἡ πρᾶξις=did not reach its goal; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 181, Ant. 17, 185.—Ael. Aristid. 52 p. 597 D.: τὸ τέλος πάντων πραγμάτων). εἰς τέλος εἶναι be at = reach the goal IRo 1:1 (εἰς for ἐν; s. εἰς 1aδ).
    ④ last in a series, rest, remainder (Aristot. De Gen. Anim. 1, 18 p. 725b, 8; Is 19:15. Of a military formation Arrian, Tact. 10, 5; 18, 4), if τὸ τέλος 1 Cor 15:24 is to be taken, w. JWeiss and Ltzm., of a third and last group (τάγμα 1b; s. 2a and 2bα above).
    ⑤ revenue obligation, (indirect) tax, toll-tax, customs duties (X., Pla. et al.; ins, pap; 1 Macc 10:31; 11:35; Jos., Ant. 12, 141) ἀποδιδόναι τὸ τέλος Ro 13:7b; cp. a (w. φόρος as Appian, Sicil. 2, 6, Bell. Civ. 2, 13 §47; Vi. Aesopi W 92; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 10, 22. Pl. w. εἰσφοραί Theoph. Ant. 1, 10 [p. 80, 19]). λαμβάνειν τέλη ἀπό τινος Mt 17:25 (w. κῆνσος; Just., A I, 27, 2).—τὰ τέλη τ. αἰώνων 1 Cor 10:11 is transl. the (spiritual) revenues of the ages by ASouter (Pocket Lex. of the NT 1916, s.v. τέλος) and PMacpherson, ET 55, ’43/44, 222 (s. 2a above).—GDelling, TW VIII, 50–88: τέλος and related words, also ZNW 55, ’64, 26–42=Studien zum NT, ’70, 17–31.—B. 802; 979. Schmidt, Syn. IV 496–523. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 998–999). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    Thank you for this unsupported opinion.
    Matthew 16:26
    (26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
    Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
    1 John 5:19
    (19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
    Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
    Revelation 12:9
    (9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
    Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
    Revelation 13:3
    (3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
    Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
    Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.
    Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
    Acts of the Apostles 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
    Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
    Acts of the Apostles 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?
    Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
    Acts of the Apostles 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.
    Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
    Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
    Acts of the Apostles 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth
    Did "all the world" worship the goddess Diana?
    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
    .....Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The word "world" cannot mean the entire earth because "the whole world" and "all the world" are used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."
    .....There is a grammatical term for how "world" is used in these passages. Do you know what that term is and how it relates to this discussion?

    This source is written by a person who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Koine Greek.
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    Actually some of the verses in your list use the noun, aion, not the adjective aionios. And, of course, you believe both aion and aionios always mean "eternal", except when used in hyperbole. You've never shown one scholar, church father, lexicon, or commentary during the past thousands of years in support of such a viewpoint. OTOH many such agree in opposing your theory.

    It is a fact that nowhere in all the books of the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament is aion or aionios ever said to be "defined", "equal to" or "understood" as - "eternal, everlasting, etc.". Biblical Hebrew & Greek were very capable of expressing such a definition if the Divine Author of the Sacred Scriptures believed such was - THE definition - of the word. But He didn't. Nowhere do we read anything like:

    "understand this: the word aionios means no end"
    "aionios is equal to endless"
    "aionios is the same as eternal"

    The verse list of Der Alter merely presents arguments that in his opinion prove that certain verses he has selected mean "eternal" in their particular context. As i've shown his is just one interpretation which does not take into account other interpretations he hadn't considered. As such, in each and every instance, they fail as "proof texts" for a meaning of "eternal" in their particular contexts.

    The fact is, both aion and aionios were often used of finite duration in the ancient Koine Greek of the times of the NT and early church fathers. Consider the following evidence:

    The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    The Greek text may be found here:


    In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

    ""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
    That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

    "It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
    Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

    " "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

    Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "Chapter Nine

    Which is verified by the following:


    The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

    “…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

    Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

    "In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

    "St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

    "Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

    Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

    Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

    "There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t8FDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Origen+There+is+a+resurrection+of+the+dead,+and+there+is+punishment,+but+not+everlasting&source=bl&ots=4r3NGBhT0C&sig=c1KIf9XHCnTg_AGnq2Y7GBwLSoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmyaeirbHbAhXjylQKHfJfCxkQ6AEIXTAG#v=onepage&q=Origen There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting&f=false

    Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

    "Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

    "1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

    "...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

    "...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    Greek text here:

    http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

    continued next post
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

    "That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

    Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=t47JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=when+the+‘aeons+of+the+aeons’+are+mentioned,+a+certain+limit+is+again+posited&source=bl&ots=z4pNrnRpzI&sig=CQBIrlKAd1Tb4bbKOawzmUnBllU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHm-X6h5jOAhUUHGMKHQYFDQ4Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited&f=false

    Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

    Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.


    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

    Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

    I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
    Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

    Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
    Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
    Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

    They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
    I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

    He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
    Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
    Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

    ’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

    Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
    Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

    And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
    In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

    When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
    I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
    From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

    Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
    For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
    Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

    Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

    "The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

    "..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."


    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

    Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

    "...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

    "Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

    "As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter


    Thank you for providing no evidence against it. Does that mean you have none?

    Lose it for how long? It doesn't say forever. Can one who loses their soul find it again later? Did king Nebuchadnezzar lose his soul for 7 years when he ate grass like an animal...UNTIL...God restored him & he worshipped Love Omnipotent:

    Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
    35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'
    36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
    37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

    Here again a punishment is...UNTIL...a certain point:

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail.
    I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    Which is spoken of in the context of references to Gehenna, both before & after this passage. Likewise here is yet another passage re punishment...UNTIL...a certain time:

    Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mt.16:26, KJV)

    A parallel passage states:

    What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? Lk.9:25

    The word for "lose" is apollumi. The same Greek word used of the lost sheep, coin, & prodigal son who were "lost" & later found (Luke 15).

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
  19. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    Ok, thanks for your answer. I agree that the fire is everlasting. My problem was more with the idea of prison. It doesn’t seem to be very Biblical.

    Jesus tells soul and body are destroyed in hell, that is why I don’t think it is prison.

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matt. 10:28

    That the fire is eternal, doesn’t mean that some will live there forever.

    I think you have right understanding about the works. :)
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    The context shows that verses 21-23 are a different topic from verses 16-20 in which the parallel of verses 16 & 20 occur. In v.21-23 the subject is not all creation as in v.16,20, but instead the Colossians, the saints. Paul says they will be presented "holy in His sight" (v.22) if they continue in the faith, clearly a reference to a specific time, the time when they meet the Lord, which for these saints would have been when they died, & for others when He returns. So v.22-23 refer to a time no later than the second coming & tell us nothing about reconciliation possibilities for "all" beyond that time. So verses 22-23 in no way limit the parallel of verses 16 & 20 from being a future universal reconciliation of created beings in the ages to come after the Lord's return, such as in the millennial age or in the ages of the new heavens & new earth. Nowhere does Paul say of those who don't continue in the faith that they are excluded from the "all" of verse 20. Therefore your specious argument fails.

    Is it inconsistent that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    In that case all the dead of OT times & all fallen angels are included. So there is still hope for them.

    Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross" (Col.1:20), how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins
    against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    "ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him....In men [it] is
    preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)...Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated...to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings" (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

    "Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

    "...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
    all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

    "...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
    and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
    with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
    head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
    Reconciliation: The Heart of God's Grand Plan for Creation | Ambassador of Reconciliation

    "The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus." ("Glorious Grace: 100 Daily Readings...", by Joseph Prince, p.165).

    Nothing Jesus ever said negates Paul's Universalism. It was Jesus who Authored Paul's epistles.

    Out of context (& erroneously translated) quotes from other Bible writers not named Paul, which have been already addressed, deleted.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018