two covenants

[Mercy74]

And where are these now?

When you spoke about "faith alone" and used David to support your position. I added that it was in David's heart to build a dwelling place for YHWH. Is it in your heart to build a dwelling place on earth for YHWH?

 

[Mercy74]

And the Jews of today? Do they offer burnt sacrifices as well?

Was righteous Abel a Jew? Luke 11:51

 

[Gup20]

When you spoke about "faith alone" and used David to support your position. I added that it was in David's heart to build a dwelling place for YHWH. Is it in your heart to build a dwelling place on earth for YHWH?

No.
My faith is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is a priest on the order of Melchizedek. Since He is descended from the house of Judah, and no Levitical priest ever came from that line, his priesthood is separate from The Law (though the law does bare witness to Malchezadek). Since Jesus' life is eternal, and he offered his own blood, both the sacrifice and the priesthood stand forever without the need for any more sacrifices.

[Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

[Heb 7:11-22 NASB] 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested [of Him,] "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as [it was] not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.​

 

[Gup20]

Was righteous Abel a Jew? Luke 11:51

No.

 

[JLB777]

I asked you a simple question: Did Moses offer weekly sacrifices in Jerusalem?

Please show me from the scriptures where Moses offered weekly sacrifices?


JLB

 

[Mercy74]

Please show me from the scriptures where Moses offered weekly sacrifices?


JLB

I already told you Moses never offered weekly sacrifices in Jerusalem.

 

[Mercy74]

No.

Since Abel was not a Jew; how could sacrifices be for Jews only?

 

[Mercy74]

No.
My faith is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is a priest on the order of Melchizedek. Since He is descended from the house of Judah, and no Levitical priest ever came from that line, his priesthood is separate from The Law (though the law does bare witness to Malchezadek). Since Jesus' life is eternal, and he offered his own blood, both the sacrifice and the priesthood stand forever without the need for any more sacrifices.

[Psa 110:4 NASB] 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

[Heb 7:11-22 NASB] 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need [was there] for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become [such] not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested [of Him,] "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as [it was] not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.​

For this cause John baptized Yeshua; Yeshua did not wash John to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). Yeshua did wash the feet of his disciples; no change in priesthood. In fact Yeshua was not a priest on earth (Hebrews 8:4). The lesser is blessed by the greater; Melchizedek blessed Abraham (Genesis 14:19). Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. Levi is a son of Abraham (family of priests).

 

[Gup20]

Since Abel was not a Jew; how could sacrifices be for Jews only?

So you agree that righteousness can be obtained apart from The Law of Moses, but you won't accept that it can be by faith alone? Are you advocating for another law besides The Law of Moses?

 

[JLB777]

I already told you Moses never offered weekly sacrifices in Jerusalem.

Please show me from the scriptures where Moses offered weekly sacrifices, anywhere.


JLB

 

[Mercy74]

So you agree that righteousness can be obtained apart from The Law of Moses, but you won't accept that it can be by faith alone? Are you advocating for another law besides The Law of Moses?

Excellent question. What we call the law of Moses was not actually from Moses but this law was passed down to Moses; Moses wrote it down. Since Moses wrote the Torah; he is considered to be the author of Torah. However it is clear he was not the first to offer sacrifices at the altar. Abel offered an acceptable offering that was approved by YHWH. Abel was declared righteous because of his offering. Noah became heir of the righteousness from his faith because he built the ark. Noah also built the altar and offered sacrifices; Noah bear eye-witness to the rainbow in the cloud. So you see before Moses was born it was already made clear to the world that faith is dead without works. The whole world perished (except 8) because they refused to enter the ark; Moses servant built the ark of the covenant.

 

[Mercy74]

Please show me from the scriptures where Moses offered weekly sacrifices, anywhere.


JLB

It is not necessary; the law began as prophecy until the prophecy is fulfilled then the law could be established in the earth.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

The law is still active - it is active and fulfilled. That is what it is to live under grace.

For the church existed at first before the law; then under the law, which was given by Moses; then under grace, which was first made manifest in the coming of the Mediator.

Now, as men were lying under this wrath by reason of their original sin, and as this original sin was the more heavy and deadly in proportion to the number and magnitude of the actual sins which were added to it, there was need for a Mediator, that is, for a reconciler, who, by the offering of one sacrifice, of which all the sacrifices of the law and the prophets were types, should take away this wrath.

CHURCH FATHERS: Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love (St. Augustine)

 

[Gup20]

For this cause John baptized Yeshua; Yeshua did not wash John to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). Yeshua did wash the feet of his disciples; no change in priesthood. In fact Yeshua was not a priest on earth (Hebrews 8:4). The lesser is blessed by the greater; Melchizedek blessed Abraham. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. Levi is a son of Abraham (family of priests).

I'm thankful that Jesus fulfilled the law... without it, he wouldn't be declared righteous by it, and wouldn't have been able to redeem me by giving up his righteousness (to Abraham) so that I might inherit it as an adopted descendant of Abraham... one with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had:

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

But notice what it says in Rom 4:13 - the promise (about being heir of the world) was "not through the righteousness of the law" but through the righteousness of faith. We who have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had (Gal 3:8, Rom 4:10, 12, 16) are adopted heirs of the righteousness given to Abraham. Therefore, the righteousness we have is not a righteousness of our own, not a righteousness of works. It is an inherited righteousness ... the righteousness of Christ which was given to Abraham and promised as an inheritance to all of Abraham's descendants.

Therefore, to perform works of The Law of Moses to obtain righteousness is to reject our inheritance and seek to establish our own righteousness on the basis of works, rather than faith.

[Rom 10:1, 3-11 NASB] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation. ... 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

 

[Mercy74]

I'm thankful that Jesus fulfilled the law... without it, he wouldn't be declared righteous by it, and wouldn't have been able to redeem me by giving up his righteousness (to Abraham) so that I might inherit it as an adopted descendant of Abraham... one with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had:

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

But notice what it says in Rom 4:13 - the promise (about being heir of the world) was "not through the righteousness of the law" but through the righteousness of faith. We who have the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had (Gal 3:8, Rom 4:10, 12, 16) are adopted heirs of the righteousness given to Abraham. Therefore, the righteousness we have is not a righteousness of our own, not a righteousness of works. It is an inherited righteousness ... the righteousness of Christ which was given to Abraham and promised as an inheritance to all of Abraham's descendants.

Therefore, to perform works of The Law of Moses to obtain righteousness is to reject our inheritance and seek to establish our own righteousness on the basis of works, rather than faith.

[Rom 10:1, 3-11 NASB] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation. ... 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Do you see any similarities between Romans 10:8 and Deuteronomy 30:14?

 

[Gup20]

Do you see any similarities between Romans 10:8 and Deuteronomy 30:14?

For sure! Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 extensively in Romans 10.

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
​

When asked, Jesus said the greatest commandment in all the law was to love the Lord your God with all your hearth soul, mind and strength.

I think it's important to draw a distinction when talking about RIGHTEOUSNESS. Faith is all that is required for RIGHTEOUSNESS... however... serving God goes beyond merely obtaining righteousness. Heart, soul, mind, & strength are mentioned. However, for righteousness, all that is needed is heart, soul, and mind. But obtaining righteousness isn't the end-all, be-all for a Christian's walk with God. The second greatest command is like it - love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said all of the law and prophets can be summed up by these two commands.

For example, if someone is riding a donkey on the Sabbath, and the donkey falls into a pit, the right thing to do would be to help the person rescue their donkey from the pit... even though you would be working on the sabbath.

[Luk 14:5 NASB] 5 And He said to them, "Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?"

[Mar 2:23-28 NASB] 23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads [of grain.] 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" 25 And He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar [the] high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for [anyone] to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?" 27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."​

Without the overview of WHY the law, the law itself is meaningless. If you know WHY, then you need not follow the letter if you obey the spirit of the law.

[Rom 2:29 NASB] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 7:6 NASB] 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

[2Co 3:6 NASB] 6 who also made us adequate [as] servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

 

[Mercy74]

For sure! Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 extensively in Romans 10.

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
​

When asked, Jesus said the greatest commandment in all the law was to love the Lord your God with all your hearth soul, mind and strength.

I think it's important to draw a distinction when talking about RIGHTEOUSNESS. Faith is all that is required for RIGHTEOUSNESS... however... serving God goes beyond merely obtaining righteousness. Heart, soul, mind, & strength are mentioned. However, for righteousness, all that is needed is heart, soul, and mind. But obtaining righteousness isn't the end-all, be-all for a Christian's walk with God. The second greatest command is like it - love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said all of the law and prophets can be summed up by these two commands.

For example, if someone is riding a donkey on the Sabbath, and the donkey falls into a pit, the right thing to do would be to help the person rescue their donkey from the pit... even though you would be working on the sabbath.

[Luk 14:5 NASB] 5 And He said to them, "Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?"

[Mar 2:23-28 NASB] 23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads [of grain.] 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, "Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" 25 And He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar [the] high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for [anyone] to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?" 27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."​

Without the overview of WHY the law, the law itself is meaningless. If you know WHY, then you need not follow the letter if you obey the spirit of the law.

[Rom 2:29 NASB] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 7:6 NASB] 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

[2Co 3:6 NASB] 6 who also made us adequate [as] servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

Thank you for answering my question. I would not say the law is meaningless. How would we identify sin without the law? The command is to love YHWH even with all of our strength. The strength of sin is the law; the soul that sin must die. So how do we love YHWH with all of our strength?

 

[Gup20]

Thank you for answering my question. I would not say the law is meaningless. How would we identify sin without the law? The command is to love YHWH even with all of our strength. The strength of sin is the law; the soul that sin must die. So how do we love YHWH with all of our strength?

[Jhn 14:15, 23 NASB] 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ... 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.​

We love Jesus by following the commandments. Yet this is not a prerequisite for righteousness, but an outworking of our love for God.

[Rom 8:2 NASB] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[1Jo 4:18 NASB] 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[Jhn 8:34, 36 NASB] 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. ... 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.​

Once we have righteousness by faith, we no longer need to fear death and punishment. We are FREE to love God willingly and of the heart. Rather than operating out of fear of punishment, we operate out of love and gratitude.

 

[Mercy74]

[Jhn 14:15, 23 NASB] 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ... 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.​

We love Jesus by following the commandments. Yet this is not a prerequisite for righteousness, but an outworking of our love for God.

[Rom 8:2 NASB] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[1Jo 4:18 NASB] 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[Jhn 8:34, 36 NASB] 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. ... 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.​

Once we have righteousness by faith, we no longer need to fear death and punishment. We are FREE to love God willingly and of the heart. Rather than operating out of fear of punishment, we operate out of love and gratitude.

The strength of sin is the law. The law is good and holy. If you reject the law of Moses how can you truthfully claim you are saved from sin when sin is lawlessness?

 

[JLB777]

It is not necessary; the law began as prophecy until the prophecy is fulfilled then the law could be established in the earth.

More opinion with no scripture.


That seems to sum up your Theology.


The law of Moses has been abolished, because the Seed has come, and fulfilled the law.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Jesus fulfilled the law.


We no longer sacrifice animals for our sin.

We are no longer under the Levitical priesthood.

We are no longer required to become physically circumcised.


And on and on and on...



For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14




JLB