two covenants

[sparow]

Did Moses give us the scripture account Paul speaks of here?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Not in the fulness of his work and power.

Actually both covenants are dependent upon circumcision. The difference is one is carnal of the foreskin of the flesh. The other is spiritual in the foreskin of the heart. But the Sinai covenant gives no inheritance in Abraham to the nations. The new covenant includes all the Children promised to Abraham. One covenant concerns heirs which are princes, the other kings.
The Sinai covenant does not establish kings.

The blessings of the covenant made with the fathers cannot be disannulled, by the Sinai covenant. Those blessings remain into the Sinai covenant. But...also means the blessings are before and apart from the Sinai covenant.

<<Did Moses give us the scripture account Paul speaks of here?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.>>



I am really mystified why you ask this question; and then answer the question; the answer is yes, Paul, summarises from the OT; but there are conditions to the blessing:



Genesis 12:3 (NKJV)
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."



<<But the Sinai covenant gives no inheritance in Abraham to the nations. The new covenant includes all the Children promised to Abraham. One covenant concerns heirs which are princes, the other kings.
The Sinai covenant does not establish kings.>>



It is only the Dispensationalists who divide the word of God the way you do; other wise the plan of salvation or the construction of the kingdom of God, homogeneous, holistic, and singular; there is of course a time line for this construction, which today is mostly historical but is still a work in progress.



<<The blessings of the covenant made with the fathers cannot be disannulled, by the Sinai covenant. Those blessings remain into the Sinai covenant. But...also means the blessings are before and apart from the Sinai covenant.>>



I am not aware that anyone has suggested that the Sinai covenant annuls anything previous.

 

[ralliann]

<<Did Moses give us the scripture account Paul speaks of here?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.>>



I am really mystified why you ask this question; and then answer the question; the answer is yes, Paul, summarises from the OT;

You never know what people believe concerning the first five books of Moses. So I was asking if you believe Moses wrote the scriptural reference Paul used. Some people do not believe Moses wrote it.

It is only the Dispensationalists who divide the word of God the way you do;

Since I am not a dispensationalist the above can't be true. Though I did read on a different board that some actually think the early Church fathers had dispensational ideas. But they were not dispensationalists, but like me they spoke of covenants.

​

<<The blessings of the covenant made with the fathers cannot be disannulled, by the Sinai covenant. Those blessings remain into the Sinai covenant. But...also means the blessings are before and apart from the Sinai covenant.>>



I am not aware that anyone has suggested that the Sinai covenant annuls anything previous.

My comments did not concern anyone saying that. Rather to say that the Abrahamic promises while seen operating simultaneous to the Sinai covenant, are not to be confused as originating from the Sinai covenant. That stuff happens a lot. Laws existing before and apart from Sinai, are often used to make Moses law existent prior to Moses, rather than Laws which existed prior being retained by Moses law.

 

[ralliann]

However Abraham lived in the land and was buried; even Joseph's bones were carried away by Moses.

You are saying nothing here. Perhaps I can add scripture to the above for some substance?
Abraham, as well as Isaac and Jacob lived in the land as strangers and sojourners there.
Josephs bones were carried out of Egypt because of the promise of the resurrection to inherit the eternal kingdom, in the next world and the next life.
Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not inherit the temporal kingdom promised the fourth generation of his seed.

Your understanding of Scripture is not cogent.

Again nothing.

The pharoah forgot about Joseph's dreams and his wisdom.

He did not know Jospeh, because Joseph and all the third generation was dead by the time he arose as Pharoah.

For this cause he sought to persecute Israel; the firstborn of YHWH. A prophet named Moses was born after Joseph died in Egypt.
Moses lead Israel to a holy city whose Maker is YHWH.

Moses died not entering the promised land. The entire generation which came out died in the wilderness disinherited, except a very few of which Joshua was foremost.


Deut 3:26 But the LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.
27 Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan.

Joshua led their children into the land.

28 But charge Joshua, and encourage him, and strengthen him: for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which thou shalt see.

 

[Mercy74]

You are saying nothing here. Perhaps I can add scripture to the above for some substance?
Abraham, as well as Isaac and Jacob lived in the land as strangers and sojourners there.
Josephs bones were carried out of Egypt because of the promise of the resurrection to inherit the eternal kingdom, in the next world and the next life.
Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not inherit the temporal kingdom promised the fourth generation of his seed.

Again nothing.

He did not know Jospeh, because Joseph and all the third generation was dead by the time he arose as Pharoah.

Moses died not entering the promised land. The entire generation which came out died in the wilderness disinherited, except a very few of which Joshua was foremost.


Deut 3:26 But the LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.
27 Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan.

Joshua led their children into the land.

28 But charge Joshua, and encourage him, and strengthen him: for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which thou shalt see.

Moses strengthened Joshua (Deut 3:28) to go over before his people and cause them to inherit the land. In fact the same way YHWH was with Moses; YHWH was with Joshua (Joshua 1:5). A "heavenly" kingdom means the kingdom is from heaven to one day be on earth. Abraham sought after a country on earth whose builder and maker is YHWH. Abraham left the Chaldeans (Acts 7:4) to seek first the kingdom from G-d and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33). We know "many things" we're added unto Abraham; he was very rich (Genesis 13:2).

 

[ralliann]

Moses strengthened Joshua (Deut 3:28) to go over before his people and cause them to inherit the land. In fact the same way YHWH was with Moses; YHWH was with Joshua (Joshua 1:5). A "heavenly" kingdom means the kingdom is from heaven to one day be on earth. Abraham sought after a country on earth whose builder and maker is YHWH. Abraham left the Chaldeans (Acts 7:4) to seek first the kingdom from G-d and his righteousness (Matthew 6:33). We know "many things" we're added unto Abraham; he was very rich (Genesis 13:2).

The heavenly kingdom is eternal as are those who are it's citizens in the resurrection with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not inherit a temporal kingdom as did Israel under Moses. We walk like Abraham in this world and this life, as strangers and sojourners.

 

[Mercy74]

The heavenly kingdom is eternal as are those who are it's citizens in the resurrection with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not inherit a temporal kingdom as did Israel under Moses. We walk like Abraham in this world and this life, as strangers and sojourners.

Moses sought to possess the land that was promised to the fathers. Joshua who was charged by Moses did. Joshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. If you listen to Moses you would believe Yeshua (John 5:46).

 

[ralliann]

Moses sought to possess the land that was promised to the fathers.

Moses sought to possess the land promised to the fourth generation from Abraham. But was not able to do so.
Moses however will enter into the eternal kingdom promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the resurrection from the dead. For the Sinai covenant law cannot disannul that promise.

Joshua who was charged by Moses did. Joshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. If you listen to Moses you would believe Yeshua (John 5:46).

Right since the law gave a shadow, but we have the reality in Christ.

 

[Mercy74]

Moses sought to possess the land promised to the fourth generation from Abraham. But was not able to do so.
Moses however will enter into the eternal kingdom promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the resurrection from the dead. For the Sinai covenant law cannot disannul that promise.
Right since the law gave a shadow, but we have the reality in Christ.

In order for there to be a shadow, the light must shine; the object is not far away. Joseph was the forth generation; Joseph the firstborn of Rachel; Joseph was also given a double blessing. Moses carried the bones of Joseph; YHWH told Moses to tell pharoah Israel was his firstborn. Righteous Abel offered the firstborn of his flock and it was accepted.

 

[ralliann]

In order for there to be a shadow, the light must shine; the object is not far away. Joseph was the forth generation; Joseph the firstborn of Rachel; Joseph was also given a double blessing. Moses carried the bones of Joseph; YHWH told Moses to tell pharoah Israel was his firstborn. Righteous Abel offered the firstborn of his flock and it was accepted.

Joseph was the third generation of Abrahams seed
Abraham
Isaac ...1st generation of Abrahams seed
Jacob ...2nd generation of Abrahams seed
Joseph ..3rd generation of Abrahams seed (includes all the patriarchs)

Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

 

[Mercy74]

Joseph was the third generation of Abrahams seed
Abraham
Isaac ...1st generation of Abrahams seed
Jacob ...2nd generation of Abrahams seed
Joseph ..3rd generation of Abrahams seed (includes all the patriarchs)

Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Let's be clear, the land was promised to Abraham and his seed. Abram was promised an honourable burial with his fathers; the fourth generation will be gathered at that special place (Genesis 15:16). Isaac and Ishmael buried their father Abraham and his wife Sarah (Genesis 25:10) . The bones of Joseph were carried out of Egypt by Moses; Joshua buried the bones of Joseph in a parcel of land purchased by their father Jacob (Joshua 24:32). Jacob owned some land within the promise land; the bones of Joseph were buried there. It was customary for Joseph to be buried with his fathers. It is obvious you do not understand burial rites. Four generations were buried in the promised land purchased by the fathers of the faithful.

 

[ralliann]

Let's be clear, the land was promised to Abraham and his seed. Abram was promised an honourable burial with his fathers; the fourth generation will be gathered at that special place (Genesis 15:16). Isaac and Ishmael buried their father Abraham and his wife Sarah (Genesis 25:10) . The bones of Joseph were carried out of Egypt by Moses; Joshua buried the bones of Joseph in a parcel of land purchased by their father Jacob (Joshua 24:32). Jacob owned some land within the promise land; the bones of Joseph were buried there. It was customary for Joseph to be buried with his fathers. It is obvious you do not understand burial rites. Four generations were buried in the promised land purchased by the fathers of the faithful.

I understand the resurrection and the promise of eternal life in the eternal kingdom. That is what I look for. There is no enduring kingdom in this life and this world. Abraham Isaac and Jacob will be there in the resurrection. Anyone wanting a piece of real estate in the land of Israel in this world and this life? Do what it takes to become a citizen. I am not hoping for that in Christ.

 

[sparow]

You never know what people believe concerning the first five books of Moses. So I was asking if you believe Moses wrote the scriptural reference Paul used. Some people do not believe Moses wrote it.



Since I am not a dispensationalist the above can't be true. Though I did read on a different board that some actually think the early Church fathers had dispensational ideas. But they were not dispensationalists, but like me they spoke of covenants.

​

My comments did not concern anyone saying that. Rather to say that the Abrahamic promises while seen operating simultaneous to the Sinai covenant, are not to be confused as originating from the Sinai covenant. That stuff happens a lot. Laws existing before and apart from Sinai, are often used to make Moses law existent prior to Moses, rather than Laws which existed prior being retained by Moses law.

I assume Moses wrote the first five books. Mainly because I've been told so; but who is the claimed author isn't a test of validity. The history of Israel keeping and not keeping the covenant and the consequences; the blessings and curses are self validating.



Dispensationalism is probably a misnomer; the word is used metaphorically and is not in itself a doctrine. The OT could be seen as a dispensation or period of time and the NT could be seen as another dispensation. The Dispensationalists divide in more ways than time; at one time they had 68 Gospels and truck loads of grace; leading Ivan Panin in the 1930's to say “Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible”. Dispensationalism seems to have exploded like a hand grenade and it doctrines , like shrapnel, got scattered across Christendom. What I normally perceive as Dispensationalism is Futurism.



The Law is God's; Moses administrated it for a time.

 

[ralliann]

I assume Moses wrote the first five books. Mainly because I've been told so; but who is the claimed author isn't a test of validity. The history of Israel keeping and not keeping the covenant and the consequences; the blessings and curses are self validating.

The question concerned another issue. Which post number 78 you said...

"If there was a promise of Christ to Abraham it would have been mentioned by Moses when he discusses Abraham and I am not aware of that;"

And Paul's quote from Moses account of Genesis
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Dispensationalism is probably a misnomer; the word is used metaphorically and is not in itself a doctrine. The OT could be seen as a dispensation or period of time and the NT could be seen as another dispensation. The Dispensationalists divide in more ways than time; at one time they had 68 Gospels and truck loads of grace; leading Ivan Panin in the 1930's to say “Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible”. Dispensationalism seems to have exploded like a hand grenade and it doctrines , like shrapnel, got scattered across Christendom. What I normally perceive as Dispensationalism is Futurism.



The Law is God's; Moses administrated it for a time.

The law that Moses administered was Moses law for Israel.

Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
Jos 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

 

[Mercy74]

I understand the resurrection and the promise of eternal life in the eternal kingdom. That is what I look for. There is no enduring kingdom in this life and this world. Abraham Isaac and Jacob will be there in the resurrection. Anyone wanting a piece of real estate in the land of Israel in this world and this life? Do what it takes to become a citizen. I am not hoping for that in Christ.

The Saducees who do not believe in the resurrection told a story about a widow with seven husbands (Mark 12:18). "At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?" (Mark 12:23) Why would the Saducees tell a parable that includes the resurrection if they truly deny the resurrection? You are like the Saducees, you speak about things you do not understand. You must comprehend the most holy things before you make careless mistakes like Uzzah handled the ark of the covenant, attempting to carry what is old or ancient built during the time of Moses on a "new cart"(1 Chronicles 13:7).

 

[ralliann]

The Saducees who do not believe in the resurrection told a story about a widow with seven husbands (Mark 12:18). "At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?" (Mark 12:23) Why would the Saducees tell a parable that includes the resurrection if they truly deny the resurrection? You are like the Saducees, you speak about things you do not understand. You must comprehend the most holy things before you make careless mistakes like Uzzah handled the ark of the covenant, attempting to carry what is old or ancient built during the time of Moses on a "new cart"(1 Chronicles 13:7).

We can see from the Gospels that belief in a resurrection made no difference to the rulers which believed in it.

Spoken from Jesus the Christ, to the Pharisees,
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Mercy74]

We can see from the Gospels that belief in a resurrection made no difference to the rulers which believed in it.

Spoken from Jesus the Christ, to the Pharisees,
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There were Pharisees that converted; Paul being one of them. Yeshua personally ministers to Nicodemus about being born again.

 

[sparow]

The question concerned another issue. Which post number 78 you said...

"If there was a promise of Christ to Abraham it would have been mentioned by Moses when he discusses Abraham and I am not aware of that;"

And Paul's quote from Moses account of Genesis
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.




The law that Moses administered was Moses law for Israel.

Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
Jos 23:6 Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left;

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

What we are now discussing is the mechanisations for not keeping the commandments of God.


If the Law was God's law/covenant it could not be annulled or abrogated, but if the Law was Moses' personal property; if Moses was the originator and authority of “the Law of Moses” if it was Moses who made the covenant with Israel, then we could throw the Law/covenant belonging to Moses, in the dust bin

I do not have a problem with the scriptures you quote but I derive a different understanding than you.

If the scripture said, BOOK OF THE LAW, of Moses; Moses owned the book and had written down God's law in the book; now the book could be thrown in the dust bin but the Law is spiritual and cannot be held in a dust bin.

The Law was for all Israel, but the fine print usually omitted is, AND THEIR DESCENDANTS. I am a descendant how about you?

 

[Mercy74]

What we are now discussing is the mechanisations for not keeping the commandments of God.


If the Law was God's law/covenant it could not be annulled or abrogated, but if the Law was Moses' personal property; if Moses was the originator and authority of “the Law of Moses” if it was Moses who made the covenant with Israel, then we could throw the Law/covenant belonging to Moses, in the dust bin

I do not have a problem with the scriptures you quote but I derive a different understanding than you.

If the scripture said, BOOK OF THE LAW, of Moses; Moses owned the book and had written down God's law in the book; now the book could be thrown in the dust bin but the Law is spiritual and cannot be held in a dust bin.

The Law was for all Israel, but the fine print usually omitted is, AND THEIR DESCENDANTS. I am a descendant how about you?

We know that the law is spiritual, Paul the Pharisee claimed to be unspiritual sold as a slave to sin (Romans 7:14).

 

[ralliann]

There were Pharisees that converted; Paul being one of them. Yeshua personally ministers to Nicodemus about being born again.

And some that did not. It made no difference. Many from the priesthood also believed which were of the sect of the Sadducees.

 

[ralliann]

What we are now discussing is the mechanisations for not keeping the commandments of God.

No, actually we are now discussing is the difference between different covenants and the law which was given to one nation, Israel 430 years after Abraham.

If the Law was God's law/covenant it could not be annulled or abrogated, but if the Law was Moses' personal property; if Moses was the originator and authority of “the Law of Moses” if it was Moses who made the covenant with Israel, then we could throw the Law/covenant belonging to Moses, in the dust bin

Nobody has said that. I was using the term Moses law to distinguish between law prior to Sinai and that which was given through Moses at Sinai. Which The covenant Made at Sinai could not disannul the covenant made with Abraham.

I do not have a problem with the scriptures you quote but I derive a different understanding than you.

Well maybe because you don't agree so much with the teachings
of the Apostle Paul (ie the new testament teachings)

If the scripture said, BOOK OF THE LAW, of Moses;
Moses owned the book and had written down God's law in the book; now the book could be thrown in the dust bin but the Law is spiritual and cannot be held in a dust bin.

Nobody is arguing this as an issue???

The Law was for all Israel, but the fine print usually omitted is, AND THEIR DESCENDANTS. I am a descendant how about you?

No, I am not descended from the nation of Israel. I am a Child of Promise to Abraham to be made a father of many nations. Which by the way is also law which we both agree Moses wrote Genesis. Paul teaches us concerning hearing the law.

Gal 4: 21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

The covenant nor law from Sinai can disannul the promises of the former covenant made with Abraham.