Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[stan1953]

You made a claim that you didn't support.

Your lack of accepting it does not mean I didn't do so.

 

[stan1953]

They would have equated all Jews to being lost sheep. That's why He told them that the reason they didn't believe was because they were not His sheep.

That's right, but He did NOT say they were not lost sheep. His sheep are NOT lost.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to see for some?

 

[Hammster]

and I've shown it to you. WHOEVER is not ALL. I can't help you if you don't understand this simple phrase.
Where does it say that ALL lost sheep enter through Jesus?

When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. (John 10:4 NASB)

Nowhere will you find Jesus talking about sheep that aren't His, or sheep that don't hear Him, or sheep that don't follow.

 

[Hammster]

Your lack of accepting it does not mean I didn't do so.

There was nothing to accept.

 

[Hammster]

That's right, but He did NOT say they were not lost sheep. His sheep are NOT lost.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to see for some?

I'm not the one arguing for sheep that stay lost. That would be your argument.

 

[stan1953]

I'm not the one arguing for sheep that stay lost. That would be your argument.

Well you got one thing right anyway.

 

[stan1953]

There was nothing to accept.

Again not my problem. You either do or don't.

 

[stan1953]

When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. (John 10:4 NASB)
Nowhere will you find Jesus talking about sheep that aren't His, or sheep that don't hear Him, or sheep that don't follow.

Well that's because you're trying to read it as one homogenous chronological teaching, when it is separate thoughts.
He does talk about sheep that aren't his, and he calls them LOST sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Well that's because you're trying to read it as one homogenous chronological teaching, when it is separate thoughts.
He does talk about sheep that aren't his, and he calls them LOST sheep.

No, He doesn't. But please provide the scripture reference.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's nothing about sheep without a shepherd in John 10. Trying to have this discussion with you when you just jump all around and show no consistency is proving to be quite daunting.

I understand that RT has no defense for its claims, so this is all that there is in "rebuttal".

If you really don't know what Jesus meant by "sheep without a shepherd", it's OK to just admit it. No need to keep dodging the question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest." (Matthew 9:35-38 NASB)

There's the passage. How are you getting all of humanity from this? And, do you know the difference between a simile and a metaphor?

The obvious point is that when Jesus saw multitudes of people, He described them as sheep without a shepherd. If you want to argue that these entire crowds were believers, please be my guest.

You're the one who claims that ALL sheep are His, and He died for ALL of them.

So, either we have to assume that these multitudes of crowds were all believers, or maybe there's something wrong or missing in your analysis.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The world experiences the wrath of God. Sins for them have no propitiation, no appeasement purchased for them by Christ because the world is not in Christ.
http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation

The wrath of God remains upon unbelievers.

So then there is no turning away of God's wrath abiding on the world of unbelievers.

It is a strange thing to claim God's wrath has been turned away by the propitiation of Christ for unbelievers.

Seems there's a lot of misunderstanding going on. There is wrath for the believer who sins as well. But maybe your definition of wrath needs adjusting.

Wrath is the opposite of being pleased. What pleases God? Faith, per heb 11:6 and 1 Cor 1:21. What angers God? Sin. From anyone.

In 1 Jn 2:2, God's justice was satisfied. But He still expresses wrath against sin.

One needs discernment to understand the difference between God's justice and wrath. There is no concept of "emotion" in His justice, just as there isn't in a court of law. It's all "by the books". Spectators may have emotions, but not the judge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're putting the cart before the horse.
John 10 says nothing about entering by him because they hear his voice.
Once they are his sheep then they know and hear his voice, NOT before.

Correct! The sheep that enter the "door" BECOME His sheep. Not before.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's pretend you're right. Sheep are still sheep, and goats are still goats, regardless whether or not they look alike (which is a strange claim, indeed.

Regarding John 10, totally irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not the shepherd. I don't need to discern. But the fact still remains, which you are actually affirming, that sheep are sheep. And the sheep are saved.

No, only the one's who have entered by the "door" are saved. Haven't you read John 10 yet?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I read verse 9 in context. And yes, once sheep enter through the door (because they heard the shepherd) are saved.

Please guide me to the verse that indicates the order you have assumed.

That they have heard first, before they enter.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They would have equated all Jews to being lost sheep. That's why He told them that the reason they didn't believe was because they were not His sheep.

But they were Jews, right? So how can "lost sheep" not be HIS sheep, then? Please explain that one.

You've said that all sheep are saved. And that sheep refer to the "lost sheep" that He came to save.

 

[stan1953]

No, He doesn't. But please provide the scripture reference.

Matthew 10:6
Go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
So he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nowhere will you find Jesus talking about sheep that aren't His

A truly ASTOUNDING statement, given that Jesus actually said this:

John 10:26
“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Gotcha.

or sheep that don't hear Him, or sheep that don't follow.

If Jesus had described them as goats, or rams, or something else, you would possible have a point.

But since He didn't, neither do you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matthew 10:6
Go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
So he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Kinda funny, but it seems he views "lost sheep" as saved ones. Go figure.