Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[Hammster]

The passage doesn't say WHAT? I have already addressed the verses in question, for which you twisted to fit your monergistic POV and then lay the same argument on others?
Those who walk through the gate that is Jesus Christ, are saved. Apparently v6 is still a reality for a lot of people today, and even though Jesus gives three more parables or analogies after v6 in this scripture, they still didn't get it, as is the case on this thread.

Of course they are saved. Why do you think I believe otherwise?

 

[Hammster]

Quite honestly I have no idea what you claim as it seems to change from moment to moment. No doubt by design I surmise.

I'll refresh your memory, even though I've said it at least twice to you personally.

Jesus spoke using illustrations that the people would understand. The Jews would understand what was meant when He talked about sheep because if the references in the OT. And He was consistent in His teachings. That's one reason why it's okay to compare John 10 with Matthew 25. Jesus wouldn't have sheep meaning one thing in one conversation, yet something else in another.

Also, the Jews thought that they were all sheep. Yet Jesus showed them to not be sheep because they did not listen.

 

[stan1953]

I never said lost sheep are not sheep.

Oh yes you did...HERE.

 

[stan1953]

Of course they are saved. Why do you think I believe otherwise?

Why do you act as if your previous answers cannot be seen or remembered?

 

[stan1953]

I'll refresh your memory, even though I've said it at least twice to you personally.
Jesus spoke using illustrations that the people would understand. The Jews would understand what was meant when He talked about sheep because if the references in the OT. And He was consistent in His teachings. That's one reason why it's okay to compare John 10 with Matthew 25. Jesus wouldn't have sheep meaning one thing in one conversation, yet something else in another.
Also, the Jews thought that they were all sheep. Yet Jesus showed them to not be sheep because they did not listen.

It's not my memory that needs to be refreshed Hammster. The fact is not all lost sheep are saved. Feel free to equivocate all you want, but I have no problem staying on point.

 

[Hammster]

Oh yes you did...HERE.

You misunderstood. But that's my fault. I should have been clearer. I've since fixed my response for clarity.

 

[Hammster]

Why do you act as if your previous answers cannot be seen or remembered?

I'm not. If you feel there's a contradiction, please feel free to post it.

 

[Hammster]

It's not my memory that needs to be refreshed Hammster. The fact is not all lost sheep are saved. Feel free to equivocate all you want, but I have no problem staying on point.

I'm still waiting for any evidence of some lost sheep not being saved. All I've seen from you are two verses that mention lost sheep. Neither substantiate your claim.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This thread was started by someone who seemed to have backslidden because He had supposedly received some wrong teaching.

How do you all think we are doing on winning him back again?

 

[sdowney717]

This thread was started by someone who seemed to have backslidden because He had supposedly received some wrong teaching.

How do you all think we are doing on winning him back again?

I think he got some help.
It is like the thread gets old, if the original poster does not come back with another thread or anything else to say, the conversation will keep going somewhere, happens all the time.

If a thread I start does not get me the info or help or go where I want, I will start another or go to another forum and post.

Some of these posters are also not honest, they are trolling.
Everyone needs a human to human fellowship contact such as a local church to share burdens with and pray for one another. This forum is just a small part of that.

 

[A New Dawn]

This thread was started by someone who seemed to have backslidden because He had supposedly received some wrong teaching.

How do you all think we are doing on winning him back again?

Yeah, I think he came for the argument. His OP wasn't logical for one who was backslidden. IMO.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It's been my experience over a half century of this Bible study thing that most people within Christianity have their mind made up already what they believe. Trouble is - most of them have really just gone with the overall package given to them by their own "group".

It has always seemed to me that folks who do that aren't really anymore "noble", as God says (Think Barean!), in their approach to investigation when they are coming from a orthodox position than one who is subscribing to the teachings of an out and out cult. Maybe they lucked out and ended up associated with a more correct group than the cultist - but it was more sheer luck (or providence) that got them there than any particular nobility.

As one who was an athiest before finding out that the Bible is God's word to us - I've always tried hard to listen to and investigate in the scriptures, any point of view from another group.

Most are rejected since I'm pretty well grounded by now. But occasionally I'll have my eyes opened to another view of things. As a result - I've ended up with a rather eclectic mix of Christianity while still remaining in the fold.

Occasionally I am informed by one group (Reformed for instance) that I can't be one of them since I don't subscribe to all 5 points of so called Calvinism or some other criteria. I've been questioned how I can still call myself conservative when I subscribe to some concepts from the "word of faith" crowd. Or -how can I call myself orthodox when I speak in tongues in my prayer life.

It seems to me, after 55 years of trying hard to listen to the Holy Spirit, that a true "Bible believing Christian" will end up with a real mix.

Well - enough rambling for now. I'll just say for now that as I get older, I have less and less patience with folks who start or participate in a doctrinal discussion only to beat their own drum and not to have an informative discussion.

That's the way it often is online. Comes with the territory I guess.

MARVIN

 

[stan1953]

You misunderstood. But that's my fault. I should have been clearer. I've since fixed my response for clarity.

LOL, you call editing it to be evasive being clear?

 

[stan1953]

I'm not. If you feel there's a contradiction, please feel free to post it.

Don't need to, it's there in black and white or whatever color you use.

 

[stan1953]

I'm still waiting for any evidence of some lost sheep not being saved. All I've seen from you are two verses that mention lost sheep. Neither substantiate your claim.

Like I said, you either believe it or don't. My job is not to convince you.
The purpose here is supposed to be to get at the truth, not who can best equivocate or obfuscate.

 

[stan1953]

This thread was started by someone who seemed to have backslidden because He had supposedly received some wrong teaching.
How do you all think we are doing on winning him back again?

Sadly true, and I have sent him a message and prayed for him. He has not been on for a year and only posted twice. Once here and once in prayer requests. We should all life him up in prayer.
Thanks for the exhortation Marvin.

 

[Hammster]

Don't need to, it's there in black and white or whatever color you use.

Without proof, this is an empty accusation. Please, either show where I've contradicted myself, or retract the charge.

 

[Hammster]

Like I said, you either believe it or don't. My job is not to convince you.
The purpose here is supposed to be to get at the truth, not who can best equivocate or obfuscate.

I agree that it's not your job to convince me. But you've yet to show any proof that there are lost sheep that stay lost. I've explained why the two verses you cited do not prove your assertion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. (John 10:3, 4 NASB)

Please take note of the phrase "leads them OUT". So, "out" from what, exactly? OUT from the sheep pen, naturally.

So, how did they get IN? According to Jesus, they have to enter through the door. IOW, in His sheep pen, which are HIS sheep, they entered through the door, which is faith in Christ.

So Jn 10:3,4 does not help your position at all. He indicates that the sheep who hear His voice (His sheep) are led OUT from the sheep pen. But that demands that they first got in.

So, again, where is the Scripture that informs us that any sheep heard His voice and entered into the sheep pen? I haven't found any such verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's been my experience over a half century of this Bible study thing that most people within Christianity have their mind made up already what they believe. Trouble is - most of them have really just gone with the overall package given to them by their own "group".

It has always seemed to me that folks who do that aren't really anymore "noble", as God says (Think Barean!), in their approach to investigation when they are coming from a orthodox position than one who is subscribing to the teachings of an out and out cult. Maybe they lucked out and ended up associated with a more correct group than the cultist - but it was more sheer luck (or providence) that got them there than any particular nobility.

As one who was an athiest before finding out that the Bible is God's word to us - I've always tried hard to listen to and investigate in the scriptures, any point of view from another group.

Most are rejected since I'm pretty well grounded by now. But occasionally I'll have my eyes opened to another view of things. As a result - I've ended up with a rather eclectic mix of Christianity while still remaining in the fold.

Occasionally I am informed by one group (Reformed for instance) that I can't be one of them since I don't subscribe to all 5 points of so called Calvinism or some other criteria. I've been questioned how I can still call myself conservative when I subscribe to some concepts from the "word of faith" crowd. Or -how can I call myself orthodox when I speak in tongues in my prayer life.

It seems to me, after 55 years of trying hard to listen to the Holy Spirit, that a true "Bible believing Christian" will end up with a real mix.

Well - enough rambling for now. I'll just say for now that as I get older, I have less and less patience with folks who start or participate in a doctrinal discussion only to beat their own drum and not to have an informative discussion.

That's the way it often is online. Comes with the territory I guess.

MARVIN

Very interesting post, Marvin! Thanks. That's pretty much my background as well. All my early life until my late 30s I was taught and believed that Christ died for everyone, and that eternal life is permanent (cannot be lost). I then came into contact with some Calvinists, who said things I had never heard before. I had heard of J Calvin, but was unfamiliar with what is ascribed to him.

Anyhoo, that exposure really rattled my bones and made me wonder if I been deceived to, lied to, or just was taught wrong doctrines all those years. So I began a deep search of the Scriptures to see what it really said. The result was a grounding in my faith about what I had been taught: Christ died for everyone and OSAS is true.

But now I can defend my views, whereas before, I couldn't begin to defend what I had been taught and believed.