Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[sdowney717]

Please take note of the phrase "leads them OUT". So, "out" from what, exactly? OUT from the sheep pen, naturally.

So, how did they get IN? According to Jesus, they have to enter through the door. IOW, in His sheep pen, which are HIS sheep, they entered through the door, which is faith in Christ.

So Jn 10:3,4 does not help your position at all. He indicates that the sheep who hear His voice (His sheep) are led OUT from the sheep pen. But that demands that they first got in.

So, again, where is the Scripture that informs us that any sheep heard His voice and entered into the sheep pen? I haven't found any such verse.

That would involve being drawn by the Father to Christ. They were not always Christ's, but they always belonged to God. God is the potter who fashioned them for noble purposes before they were born, God had determined their existence according to His will. God gave them to Christ, so the sheep were translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light and they then miraculously appear in the sheep pen as repenting sinners who are justified by grace and glorified by the Father, propitiated for by Christ them being God's workmanship in Christ. They did go through the door which is Christ, but it was a miracle of God that they were saved.

John 17

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them

When by the Holy Spirit they were born again, they then were given to Christ as His sheep while beforehand they were in God's safe keeping being predestined by Him who works all things according to the council of His will.

They were dead in sin, but God according to His great love for them made them alive in Christ.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Hammster]

Please take note of the phrase "leads them OUT". So, "out" from what, exactly? OUT from the sheep pen, naturally.

So, how did they get IN? According to Jesus, they have to enter through the door. IOW, in His sheep pen, which are HIS sheep, they entered through the door, which is faith in Christ.

So Jn 10:3,4 does not help your position at all. He indicates that the sheep who hear His voice (His sheep) are led OUT from the sheep pen. But that demands that they first got in.

So, again, where is the Scripture that informs us that any sheep heard His voice and entered into the sheep pen? I haven't found any such verse.

Yes, He leads the sheep out of the sheep pen. Only sheep enter. Not sure of your point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Please take note of the phrase "leads them OUT". So, "out" from what, exactly? OUT from the sheep pen, naturally.

So, how did they get IN? According to Jesus, they have to enter through the door. IOW, in His sheep pen, which are HIS sheep, they entered through the door, which is faith in Christ.

So Jn 10:3,4 does not help your position at all. He indicates that the sheep who hear His voice (His sheep) are led OUT from the sheep pen. But that demands that they first got in.

So, again, where is the Scripture that informs us that any sheep heard His voice and entered into the sheep pen? I haven't found any such verse.

That would involve being drawn by the Father to Christ. They were not always Christ's, but they always belonged to God. God is the potter who fashioned them for noble purposes before they were born, God had determined their existence according to His will. God gave them to Christ, so the sheep were translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light and they then miraculously appear in the sheep pen as repenting sinners who are justified by grace and glorified by the Father, propitiated for by Christ them being God's workmanship in Christ. They did go through the door which is Christ, but it was a miracle of God that they were saved.

Sorry, but I see no relevance at all to what I posted. What you've attempted is to import Jn 6 into Jn 10. Let's stick with Jesus' analogy of sheep to humans in Jn 10. All we have are Jesus leading sheep OUT of the pen because they hear His voice, and later on in the chapter Jesus speaks of HIS sheep who hear His voice. But Jesus also makes the point that anyone who enters through the door (Himself) will be saved. So He makes the clear statement of HOW one is saved: by faith in Christ. So any "sheep" IN the pen is saved, so when Christ "leads them out" it is because they ARE saved and to hear His voice.

John 17
When by the Holy Spirit they were born again, they then were given to Christ as His sheep while beforehand they were in God's safe keeping being predestined by Him who works all things according to the council of His will.

They were dead in sin, but God according to His great love for them made them alive in Christ.

This is "all over the map". The discussion is Jn 10, not attempting to cherry pick other passages in order to defend your point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, He leads the sheep out of the sheep pen. Only sheep enter. Not sure of your point.

In His analogy, He is only talking about sheep and sheep pens. And those who enter are saved. That is what He described as HIS sheep, as well as "other sheep", who are also HIS. But there are those "not of MY sheep" who do not hear His voice and they are not saved.

ONLY if Jesus had described the unbelieving crowd as specifically something other than sheep would Calvinism have a point to make and defend. By saying to them that they were "not of My sheep", He clearly didn't see them as other than sheep. He saw them as not HIS sheep. Not as "not sheep", as you keep trying to insinuate.

 

[Hammster]

In His analogy, He is only talking about sheep and sheep pens. And those who enter are saved. That is what He described as HIS sheep, as well as "other sheep", who are also HIS. But there are those "not of MY sheep" who do not hear His voice and they are not saved.

ONLY if Jesus had described the unbelieving crowd as specifically something other than sheep would Calvinism have a point to make and defend. By saying to them that they were "not of My sheep", He clearly didn't see them as other than sheep. He saw them as not HIS sheep. Not as "not sheep", as you keep trying to insinuate.

Matthew 25 describes them as goats. You're not going to argue that some sheep become goats, are you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matthew 25 describes them as goats. You're not going to argue that some sheep become goats, are you?

The fact is that not all parables are equal or equated. Matt 25 is about end time judgment, not about entering the sheep pen through faith in Christ.

If all parables were, Jesus WOULD HAVE described the crowd as goats, not as "not of My sheep". While you dismiss any significance of His phrase, it is nevertheless clear that Jesus was using the term "sheep" for humanity, and all who enter throught the door will be saved. That's HOW they become saved.

There is nothing about Calvinistic election in Jn 10, or anywhere else in Scripture.

Again, Jesus WOULD HAVE described the crowd as goats if there was any connection between Jn 10 and Matt 25.

Oh, and another thing. Jn 10 describes the POSSIBILITY for each "sheep" to be saved by entering through the door. Matt 25 describes the end of time, where then is NO MORE POSSIBILITY for salvation.

Proving that your tendency to mix and match analogies fails.

 

[Hammster]

The fact is that not all parables are equal or equated. Matt 25 is about end time judgment, not about entering the sheep pen through faith in Christ.

If all parables were, Jesus WOULD HAVE described the crowd as goats, not as "not of My sheep". While you dismiss any significance of His phrase, it is nevertheless clear that Jesus was using the term "sheep" for humanity, and all who enter throught the door will be saved. That's HOW they become saved.

There is nothing about Calvinistic election in Jn 10, or anywhere else in Scripture.

Again, Jesus WOULD HAVE described the crowd as goats if there was any connection between Jn 10 and Matt 25.

Oh, and another thing. Jn 10 describes the POSSIBILITY for each "sheep" to be saved by entering through the door. Matt 25 describes the end of time, where then is NO MORE POSSIBILITY for salvation.

Proving that your tendency to mix and match analogies fails.

I'm not the one mixing and matching. I'm saying that Jesus is consistent in His use of sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not the one mixing and matching. I'm saying that Jesus is consistent in His use of sheep.

He is always consistent. And His consistency is in relation to EACH parable. Even He doesn't not mix and match as your view purports.

If He had called the crowd in Jn 10 goats, you would have a point.

But He didn't, so you don't.

 

[Hammster]

He is always consistent. And His consistency is in relation to EACH parable. Even He doesn't not mix and match as your view purports.

If He had called the crowd in Jn 10 goats, you would have a point.

But He didn't, so you don't.

He didn't need to. He already said that they weren't His sheep. Goats aren't His sheep. Or do you think they are?

 

[KWCrazy]

Please take note of the phrase "leads them OUT". So, "out" from what, exactly? OUT from the sheep pen, naturally.

So, how did they get IN? According to Jesus, they have to enter through the door. IOW, in His sheep pen, which are HIS sheep, they entered through the door, which is faith in Christ.

So Jn 10:3,4 does not help your position at all. He indicates that the sheep who hear His voice (His sheep) are led OUT from the sheep pen. But that demands that they first got in.

So, again, where is the Scripture that informs us that any sheep heard His voice and entered into the sheep pen? I haven't found any such verse.

I heard a great sermon about this.
You know that sheep were free grazers, right? You know that the shepherd would move them around to keep a constant supply of fresh food. You know that there were no actual "pens" in the area, right? Shepherds would build "pens" by gathering rocks and putting them around an area with only a small gap at the front. He would lead his sheep into the enclosure at night so they wouldn't wander off and become food for some predator. When the last sheep entered, he would lay down across the opening.

Jesus says that He lays himself down like the good shepherd, protecting his flock. That's exactly what that means. The sheep don't climb over the rocks or the shepherd, so they stay together and thus are safe.

Being nomadic, shepherds had many of these enclosures. Sometimes more than one shepherd would be at a watering hole or would use the same enclosure. In the morning the shepherd would call to his flock. They would know his voice and would follow him. The good shepherd protected his flock and would sometimes leave the group in search of one stray. Predators are far more likely to attack one stray than a large flock.

This is what Jesus is telling us. He calls to us and we who follow Him; who know His voice; are called out of the pen or away from the watering hole to follow Him. Those who do not follow Him do not know His voice and remain until their shepherd comes for them. He leads us away from the others to greener pastures beyond.

This analogy is lost to many of us today because we don't understand the job of the shepherd in that time. Those who were there, however, knew exactly what Jesus was talking about. Fortunately there are still those who study these things and can explain the parables to those of us who have never raised sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He didn't need to. He already said that they weren't His sheep.

Why would anyone think that the statement "not My sheep" automatically means "not sheep"?????

Goats aren't His sheep. Or do you think they are?

News flash! Goats aren't sheep at all.

Because He didn't mention goats in Jn 10, there is no reason to bring up goats. That's just a desperate attempt to avoid the real issue; that He died for THE sheep, not just HIS sheep.

Semantics, schemantics. That's just a pitiful defense. "The" NEVER means "His". An indefinite article NEVER equates to a definite pronoun. Again, just a pitiful defense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I heard a great sermon about this.
You know that sheep were free grazers, right? You know that the shepherd would move them around to keep a constant supply of fresh food. You know that there were no actual "pens" in the area, right? Shepherds would build "pens" by gathering rocks and putting them around an area with only a small gap at the front. He would lead his sheep into the enclosure at night so they wouldn't wander off and become food for some predator. When the last sheep entered, he would lay down across the opening.

Jesus says that He lays himself down like the good shepherd, protecting his flock. That's exactly what that means. The sheep don't climb over the rocks or the shepherd, so they stay together and thus are safe.

Being nomadic, shepherds had many of these enclosures. Sometimes more than one shepherd would be at a watering hole or would use the same enclosure. In the morning the shepherd would call to his flock. They would know his voice and would follow him. The good shepherd protected his flock and would sometimes leave the group in search of one stray. Predators are far more likely to attack one stray than a large flock.

This is what Jesus is telling us. He calls to us and we who follow Him; who know His voice; are called out of the pen or away from the watering hole to follow Him. Those who do not follow Him do not know His voice and remain until their shepherd comes for them. He leads us away from the others to greener pastures beyond.

This analogy is lost to many of us today because we don't understand the job of the shepherd in that time. Those who were there, however, knew exactly what Jesus was talking about. Fortunately there are still those who study these things and can explain the parables to those of us who have never raised sheep.

All very interesting. However, Jesus used the word "door", so we have to go with it. And the sheep that enter through the door (Himself) are saved. That's the point.

In fact, Jesus wasn't dealing with the reality of sheep, but was using an analogy comparison to make a point. He died for THE sheep, while noting there were HIS sheep, OTHER sheep that were also HIS, and those NOT of HIS sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Why would anyone think that the statement "not My sheep" automatically means "not sheep"?????

Simple. The Jews were familiar with the OT use of sheep. Jesus is saying more than just some are sheep. He is claiming them as His own. He's affirming His deity.

News flash! Goats aren't sheep at all.

That's not a news flash. Not to me, anyway.

Because He didn't mention goats in Jn 10, there is no reason to bring up goats. That's just a desperate attempt to avoid the real issue; that He died for THE sheep, not just HIS sheep.

Semantics, schemantics. That's just a pitiful defense. "The" NEVER means "His". An indefinite article NEVER equates to a definite pronoun. Again, just a pitiful defense.

[/QUOTE] Not at all. And your subtle goading is evidence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Simple. The Jews were familiar with the OT use of sheep. Jesus is saying more than just some are sheep. He is claiming them as His own. He's affirming His deity.

Nope. Not at all. He was indicating in the analogy in Jn 10 that THE sheep were all of mankind, and some were His, though He would die for ALL THE sheep.

That's not a news flash. Not to me, anyway.

Your comments suggest that it was news to you.

Not at all. And your subtle goading is evidence.

I'm not goading. I'm noting; the defense for "the" meaning "His" is a pitiful one.

And what I note is evidence that your view isn't correct.

If Jesus had goats on the mind, as to who He wouldn't die for, He would have called the crowd of unbelievers goats, rather than note that they "were not of My sheep".

But again, when someone equates "the" with "His", they get all confused about what is, and what isn't.