Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[Hammster]

I do answer your questions. Where in the scriptures does it say God's wrath was on Jesus?

1 John 2.

Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

You aren't addressing what that means. Does that mean that sin is no longer counted against men?

Jesus makes atonement for those who believe and obey him.

So now He only takes away the sin of some? You are all over the place.

We are saved from the coming wrath.

Who is "we"?

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]

1 John 2.

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[FONT=&quot]You do not know where it says that because it does not say that.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Why would you not post the whole scripture reference?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You aren't addressing what that means. Does that mean that sin is no longer counted against men? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So now He only takes away the sin of some? You are all over the place. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are saved from the coming wrath.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who is "we"?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have access to this grace by faith.[/FONT]
Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

 

[A New Dawn]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus died for everyone. All have the choice. All can come to God to be saved; all have that access by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Jesus died so that whosoever believed on him would have everlasting life. That is who Jesus died for.

 

[THIS]

Jesus died so that whosoever believed on him would have everlasting life. That is who Jesus died for.

All the scriptures that tell us to believe---they do NOT nullify the scriptures that say obey.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. See James 2:14, 17, and 22.

 

[A New Dawn]

All the scriptures that tell us to believe---they do NOT nullify the scriptures that say obey.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. See James 2:14, 17, and 22.

Yes, but you are the only one making accusations that people's faith is dead. I would also like to point out that works without faith is useless since one is not saved by works (so you can't boast).

 

[Hammster]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You do not know where it says that because it does not say that.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Why would you not post the whole scripture reference?[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]We have access to this grace by faith.[/FONT]
Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:1, 2 NASB)

And you still are not addressing what it means that He died for all of our sins.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 6 makes it clear that Jesus will save all whom the Father gives to him. Maybe Calvinists feel that that verse is so clear that it doesn't need to be dwelled upon.

It is clear. But we know from other passages that those given to Jesus are believers.

Besides, Jesus dying only for the elect is a different issue than Jesus dying for all the elect. But Calvinists do understand and claim that Jesus died for all the elect.

Since you note that there is a difference, could you please explain what you see as the difference? Thanks.

YOU might differ as to who the elect are, but that, also, is a different issue.

Which category were you thinking of?

Categories of Divine Election
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
So you think your own ultimate salvation is up to you, then???

It is a RELATIONSHIP with God.

This doesn't answer my question, which was based on what you had said. Please answer, or clarify what you had said. Thanks.

God does not force me to stay.

Please show me any verse that says that you can walk away from salvation, or that you can give it back. Or that you can lose it.

I HAVE TO eat the flesh of Jesus. I HAVE TO live through the Spirit. I HAVE TO clothe myself with Christ. I HAVE TO overcome.

If all of these "have to's" are for salvation, then it is clear that you do believe that your own salvation is up to you. Sad.

Salvation is by grace, not by works. Paul said so. Several times.

What about those who stop having faith?

They are faithless saved ones. Are you aware that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for all believers forever? Are you aware of 2 Tim 2:13, where Paul said that even if we are faithless, God remains faithFUL, and CANNOT deny Himself.

Since the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer, God cannot that believer. That would go against His own promises.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

In that context, Paul was referring to the nation of Israel, who God had to set aside because of their unfaithfulness. And God will set aside those who have believed yet don't produce fruit for Him. This is not about loss of salvation, though you probably think it does.

 

[THIS]

Yes, but you are the only one making accusations that people's faith is dead.

YOU teach we are saved with faith plus no obedience!

That kind of faith is dead faith it cannot save anyone.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him?


17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.


22 You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works.

I would also like to point out that works without faith is useless since one is not saved by works (so you can't boast).

[FONT=&quot]We are saved by faith, a living faith, is a faith with works.[/FONT]

 

[FreeGrace2]

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[FONT=&quot]That makes no sense. I delight in the fear of the Lord. See Isaiah 11:3.[/FONT]

Seems your view includes fear of the lake of fire, as the reason you emphasize "keeping your nose clean".

[FONT=&quot]The discipline is to get us to REPENT. Where do you get that a person always repents after God disciplines them?[/FONT]{/QUOTE]
I don't "get" that at all. Of course there are those who don't. Like King Saul, and others. Still, show me any verse that says that unrepentant believers will lose their salvation.

[FONT=&quot]If you are not living through the Spirit by obeying Jesus, tell me---what kind of salvation do you have now?
[/FONT]

The same one that Jesus spoke about in Jn 5:24.

[FONT=&quot]I have explained those scriptures to you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are the one who ignores the scriptures.[/FONT]

No, you didn't. You ignored them and continued to cite the ones I refuted.

So, I'm still waiting for your view of the verses I gave you:
Rom 8:35-39, Eph 1:13 with 4:30, and 1 Thess 5:1-10.

 

[THIS]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:1, 2 NASB)

And you still are not addressing what it means that He died for all of our sins.

I have explained God's Truth to you, but you cannot see it.

Jesus took all our sins. He is the Sacrificial Lamb of God. If you repent of your sins, you can have forgiveness. Jesus died for the sins that you had committed and repent of doing. If you sin after you are saved, you can repent and have forgiveness.


Why don't you believe God's Truth?


Do you think that you do not have to repent before and after being saved for the sins that you committed?

 

[Hammster]

I have explained God's Truth to you, but you cannot see it.

Jesus took all our sins. He is the Sacrificial Lamb of God. If you repent of your sins, you can have forgiveness. Jesus died for the sins that you had committed and repent of doing. If you sin after you are saved, you can repent and have forgiveness.


Why don't you believe God's Truth?


Do you think that you do not have to repent before and after being saved for the sins that you committed?

I believe God's truth. I just don't believe you are espousing it.

So if Jesus took all of our sins, on what basis is anyone in hell?

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]I asked this:
So you think your own ultimate salvation is up to you, then???

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a relationship between God and the person.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This doesn't answer my question, which was based on what you had said. Please answer, or clarify what you had said. Thanks.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have already explained the truth to you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God does not make us do anything.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have a part in our relationship with God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please show me any verse that says that you can walk away from salvation, or that you can give it back. Or that you can lose it.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have already given you the scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have to keep the faith.[/FONT]
1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If all of these "have to's" are for salvation, then it is clear that you do believe that your own salvation is up to you. Sad.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I tell you what is sad, what is sad is that you do not know the joy of obeying Jesus. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His words are LIFE. We do not have life by merely hearing the words of Jesus and agreeing. We have life by doing what Jesus says.[/FONT]
James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
[FONT=&quot]Why won’t you believe Jesus? Jesus does not say blessed if you hear and only agree to what he says, we have to do what he says. Do not even call him Lord if you are not doing what he says.[/FONT]
Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He will tell you away from him you evildoer, and that he never knew you.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Salvation is by grace, not by works. Paul said so. Several times.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They are faithless saved ones. Are you aware that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit for all believers forever? Are you aware of 2 Tim 2:13, where Paul said that even if we are faithless, God remains faithFUL, and CANNOT deny Himself.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You do not understand those scriptures. You are badly mistaken The scriptures says that even if those whom the word of God came and they themselves are faithless---it does not mean God is faithful.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Since the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer, God cannot that believer. That would go against His own promises.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In that context, Paul was referring to the nation of Israel, who God had to set aside because of their unfaithfulness. And God will set aside those who have believed yet don't produce fruit for Him. This is not about loss of salvation, though you probably think it does.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You keep denying the truth. You have been ensnared.[/FONT]

 

[A New Dawn]

YOU teach we are saved with faith plus no obedience!

I don't teach anything of the sort. If you had read any of my posts, you would see that I have stated (again and again) that the same grace that saves us gifts us faith and works. Works are a sign of being saved, not a work that we need to perform to try to make ourselves worthy, or to try to save ourselves with. Faith without works is dead because there is no faith without works. But works without faith is moot because without faith, we would not be able to perform works of obedience.

[FONT=&quot]We are saved by faith, a living faith, is a faith with works.[/FONT]

And that is what I said from day 1.

 

[A New Dawn]

It is clear. But we know from other passages that those given to Jesus are believers.

It is clear from this passage that those given to Jesus are those the Father has chosen. It is clear from Acts 13 that those who believe are those who have been ordained to do so.

Since you note that there is a difference, could you please explain what you see as the difference? Thanks.

The difference between dying only for the elect and for all the elect? It seems pretty obvious to me. If Christ dies for the elect, it is for all of them (of all that the Father gives me I will not lose any (John 6:39)). Christ dying for only the elect means that none can come to him whom the Father has not chosen (John 6:65).

Which category were you thinking of?

The group of people chosen by God the Father and given to Christ to save, of which He will lose none.

 

[sdowney717]

It is clear from this passage that those given to Jesus are those the Father has chosen. It is clear from Acts 13 that those who believe are those who have been ordained to do so.


The difference between dying only for the elect and for all the elect? It seems pretty obvious to me. If Christ dies for the elect, it is for all of them (of all that the Father gives me I will not lose any (John 6:39)). Christ dying for only the elect means that none can come to him whom the Father has not chosen (John 6:65).


The group of people chosen by God the Father and given to Christ to save, of which He will lose none.

I don't understand how someone can argue with Jesus regarding John 17, how the Son and the Father have worked out our salvation. As it is so clearly written, unless they do not want to believe what He says?

I have also had people tell me John 17 was only for the apostles whom Jesus had chosen, but you can not honestly believe that considering v2 and v3.
And also about those who will believe in Jesus through their word, it says clearly.

And this for all time until His returning is in effect today.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

All believers are given to Christ by God which is in perfect agreement with Jesus saying He has power over all flesh to give eternal life to all those the Father has given Christ as believers. When Jesus says He has declared to them your name, and will in the future declare it, we are included today by the power of His Holy Spirit working within us, working of His own good pleasure.

Jesus never prays for the world, He does help the children of God who are the seed of Abraham, who are as Issac children of God's promise whom He calls to salvation.

In John 5 Jesus says He Jesus gives eternal life to who He wills.

20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have already explained the truth to you.[/FONT]

You've given your understanding of it. Which isn't correct.

God does not make us do anything.

Not even for salvation.

We have a part in our relationship with God.

Yes, in order to be blessed and rewarded, we must be obedient and faithful.

I have already given you the scriptures.

Again, none of them SAY what you think they MEAN. Are you aware of the difference in meaning between what is SAID and what is MEANT?

We have to keep the faith.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[/QUOTE]
Have you looked at the meaning of the Greek word translated "hold firmly"?
katechō

1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head the ship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess

The meaning in 1 Cor 15:2 is "to possess". Has nothing to do with "holding firmly", as if it depends on your grip.

iow, Paul was saying that if we POSSESS the Word (gospel), we are saved.

He was not making any kind of statement about believers trying to "hold on" to their salvation. That is just works salvation.

I tell you what is sad, what is sad is that you do not know the joy of obeying Jesus.

No, what is sad is how little you understand of what I believe. Illustrated by just this kind of erroneous statement.

His words are LIFE. We do not have life by merely hearing the words of Jesus and agreeing. We have life by doing what Jesus says.

I suggest you read carefully through the gospel of John. He quoted Jesus many times about what Jesus said to do to be saved. Hint: believe in Him.

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Right. That's what believers are supposed to do. Where do you find "loss of salvation" here?

Why won’t you believe Jesus?

I do believe Him. He died for my sins and saves me from the lake of fire, which I, and everyone else in humanity deserves.

You keep denying the truth. You have been ensnared.

I'm still waiting to hear your understanding of the verses I gave you. I've denied nothing but your errors, since you haven't backed up your claims with any Scripture that actually SAYS what you have claimed.

By ignoring the verses I gave on rewards, it seems apparent that you have no understanding of the FACT that God promises rewards based on behavior.

To your way of thinking, those believers who fail to be obedient/faithful simply lose salvation, rather than rewards.

How do you understand 2 Jn 8, please?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Works are a sign of being saved, not a work that we need to perform to try to make ourselves worthy,

Interesting statement. What do you make of these verses:

Acts 5:41
So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

Ephesians 4:1
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

Philippians 1:27
Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Colossians 1:10
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Thessalonians 2:12
so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
v.11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

1 Timothy 5:18
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

3 John 1:6
and they have testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God.

Revelation 3:4
‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

I can't help but see a recurring theme here. Believers are to "walk worthy".

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is clear from this passage that those given to Jesus are those the Father has chosen. It is clear from Acts 13 that those who believe are those who have been ordained to do so.

My statement stands. God gives ONLY believers to Jesus. And Acts 13:48 doesn't say anything about God ordaining anyone. First, the meaning of tasso is to "line up, or arrange", basically. And both the middle and passive voice is the SAME form for the tense used here, we must look to the context to determine which the author meant. And v.44 clearly indicates that the Gentiles lined themselves up or arranged themselves to hear Paul's preaching.

The difference between dying only for the elect and for all the elect? It seems pretty obvious to me. If Christ dies for the elect, it is for all of them (of all that the Father gives me I will not lose any (John 6:39)). Christ dying for only the elect means that none can come to him whom the Father has not chosen (John 6:65).

So, basically, no difference at all. That's what I thought.

How many Calvinists really ever claim that Christ died for ALL of the elect? My guess is none. Unless pressed upon. What we always hear instead is that Christ died ONLY for the elect. That's how it is always stated.

Yet, the writer of Hebrews said he died for all. Because that's what he meant.

The group of people chosen by God the Father and given to Christ to save, of which He will lose none.[/QUOTE]
This didn't answer my question. Seems more of a Calvinist talking point than anything else.

I gave you the 6 categories that are described in Scripture as being chosen/elected. Which category were you thinking of?

 

[stan1953]

OK. So, why can't being "thrown out" not refer to being discarded in the sense of not being used by God? Why must the phrase "thrown out" refer to loss of salvation. Why can't it refer to divine discipline up to physical death?

Because the context of this scripture does NOT lend itself to being set aside, but to be discarded as garbage. Useless, of no value. The loss of salvation is the loss of being the salt itself. Jesus says LOST.

I hold Arminians to the same standards as Calvinists. They don't believe that Christ died for everyone, in spite of clear verses about that. And there aren't any verses that specifically state that He died ONLY for some/etc.
So, to the Arminians, there are no verses that specifically state that one's salvation can be lost, and there are clear verses on eternal security.

Well as I have made it very clear, I do NOT label myself as an Arminian.
The verse I provided in just one of them. Luke 8:13 is another parable that shows loss of salvation.
As in anything from scripture, the preponderance contributes to the understanding, as in the case of salvation being lost, there is enough to warrant it's justification.

Sounds as if one must "be good" to be or stay saved. That's not Biblical.
We see this principle in 1 Cor 11:30. Ever hear of divine discipline that included physical death?

We must be FAITHFULL and persevere, as Paul teaches in Rom 11:20-22;

Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
​

The message is clear...we have to continually exercise our free will, to stay in God's will, by obeying and submitting to Him.