Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[stan1953]

Right. And what's the context there in 2 Tim 2:12? Reigning with Christ, not maintaining salvation. It's about rewards for enduring.
Just as John wrote about in 2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

The POINT is that we must endure. If we don't we receive NOTHING, including Eternal Life. Jesus confirms this in Matthew 10:22 and 24:13, and as He endured the cross, we must also endure picking up our cross daily and walking with Him. Salvation is ONLY possible because Jesus endured, and Eternal Life is only possible if WE endure.

Wrong. 2 Tim 2:12, 2 Jn 8 say differently.
Again, please show me any verse that plainly speaks of loss of salvation. So far, you've injected your interpretation on the verses you've given.

They both say IF we endure. If we don't, we are then effectively denying Jesus, which means He will deny us in the end.
I have exegeted the scripture, and when people ask to show scripture that PLAINLY speaks, IMO that is diversionary. The scripture does NOT plainly speak of many thing, like the Triune nature of God, or His Omniscience, but we know they are His qualities by what it DOES say. We know, by all the warnings about being faithful in scripture, that failing to do so results in our losing Eternal Life.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't understand how someone can argue with Jesus regarding John 17, how the Son and the Father have worked out our salvation. As it is so clearly written, unless they do not want to believe what He says?

I have also had people tell me John 17 was only for the apostles whom Jesus had chosen, but you can not honestly believe that considering v2 and v3.
And also about those who will believe in Jesus through their word, it says clearly.

And this for all time until His returning is in effect today.



All believers are given to Christ by God which is in perfect agreement with Jesus saying He has power over all flesh to give eternal life to all those the Father has given Christ as believers. When Jesus says He has declared to them your name, and will in the future declare it, we are included today by the power of His Holy Spirit working within us, working of His own good pleasure.

Jesus never prays for the world, He does help the children of God who are the seed of Abraham, who are as Issac children of God's promise whom He calls to salvation.

In John 5 Jesus says He Jesus gives eternal life to who He wills.

I don't disagree with any of what you are saying, so I am not sure if you quoted my post to agree with me or disagree with me.

 

[stan1953]

Purgatory. Just accept that it exists, and everything you say will make a lot more sense.

OFF TOPIC.

 

[A New Dawn]

I gave you the 6 categories that are described in Scripture as being chosen/elected. Which category were you thinking of?

You clearly left out the group chosen by God the Father that He gave to Christ to save. It might not have the word "elect" in the passage, but the verses clearly demonstrate a group of people selected by God.

 

[A New Dawn]

And Acts 13:48 doesn't say anything about God ordaining anyone. First, the meaning of tasso is to "line up, or arrange", basically. And both the middle and passive voice is the SAME form for the tense used here, we must look to the context to determine which the author meant. And v.44 clearly indicates that the Gentiles lined themselves up or arranged themselves to hear Paul's preaching.

Again, an eisegetical reading of the text.

 

[A New Dawn]

I can't help but see a recurring theme here. Believers are to "walk worthy".

Walking worthy and making yourself worthy are two different things.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't disagree with any of what you are saying, so I am not sure if you quoted my post to agree with me or disagree with me.

Just a confirmation!

I agree with the truth of the Word, and am happy to see your here.

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]You've given your understanding of it. Which isn't correct.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is your false opinion. You have not supported any of your false doctrines with scripture.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Not even for salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Not even for salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, in order to be blessed and rewarded, we must be obedient and faithful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again, none of them SAY what you think they MEAN. Are you aware of the difference in meaning between what is SAID and what is MEANT?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The scriptures are plain and clear.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We have to keep the faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Have you looked at the meaning of the Greek word translated "hold firmly"?
katechō

1) to hold back, detain, retain
1a) from going away
1b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)
1b1) that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance
1b2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head the ship
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of
2) to get possession of, take
2b) to possess

The meaning in 1 Cor 15:2 is "to possess". Has nothing to do with "holding firmly", as if it depends on your grip.

iow, Paul was saying that if we POSSESS the Word (gospel), we are saved.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Look at yourself and what you said, you are trying to twist away what God says.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He was not making any kind of statement about believers trying to "hold on" to their salvation. That is just works salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You are putting down obeying Jesus. It is good to obey Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No, what is sad is how little you understand of what I believe. Illustrated by just this kind of erroneous statement.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I suggest you read carefully through the gospel of John. He quoted Jesus many times about what Jesus said to do to be saved. Hint: believe in Him.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You just discounted all the scriptures I gave about obeying Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Right. That's what believers are supposed to do. Where do you find "loss of salvation" here?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do believe Him. He died for my sins and saves me from the lake of fire, which I, and everyone else in humanity deserves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I'm still waiting to hear your understanding of the verses I gave you. I've denied nothing but your errors, since you haven't backed up your claims with any Scripture that actually SAYS what you have claimed.

By ignoring the verses I gave on rewards, it seems apparent that you have no understanding of the FACT that God promises rewards based on behavior.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From the scriptures, I see that the gift, the reward, the inheritance, the treasure, the crown, the promise…it is all eternal life in the kingdom of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Don’t you care what the scriptures say?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

To your way of thinking, those believers who fail to be obedient/faithful simply lose salvation, rather than rewards.

How do you understand 2 Jn 8, please? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]List the scripture properly.[/FONT]

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]I don't teach anything of the sort. If you had read any of my posts, you would see that I have stated (again and again) that the same grace that saves us gifts us faith and works. Works are a sign of being saved, not a work that we need to perform to try to make ourselves worthy, or to try to save ourselves with. Faith without works is dead because there is no faith without works. But works without faith is moot because without faith, we would not be able to perform works of obedience.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And that is what I said from day 1.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Say it clearly and plainly then…say we must believe and obey to be saved, and to stay saved.[/FONT]


If you do not say it, then you prove you are speaking falseness and confusion.

 

[sdowney717]

[/font][/color]
[FONT=&quot]Say it clearly and plainly then…say we must believe and obey to be saved, and to stay saved.[/FONT]


If you do not say it, then you prove you are speaking falseness and confusion.

Here you go, you bet I believe that.
Because it is believers who Jesus dies for that they will inherit eternal life, not unbelievers.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And who does Jesus say he gives up His life for? Believers in Him who are the sheep.
Jesus does not give up His life for unbelievers,
John 10

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

The other sheep he has are those in the gentile world who will believe because they have been predestined, He has foreknown them. They are known to the Lord before the sheep know Him, He knows them.

 

[sdowney717]

It is for the Elect of God that it is ordained that they will believe, be justified (sprinkled with His blood) and be obedient to the Gospel.
just as Peter says in his letter to the dearly beloved elect of God. That word elect means chosen of God for salvation.

For those He has called Peter tells us about them
2 Peter 1

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The reason we have escaped the corruption, death of the world is due to His divine calling in our life. without that individual calling, we would be one of the damned.

 

[stan1953]

It is for the Elect of God that it is ordained that they will believe, be justified (sprinkled with His blood) and be obedient to the Gospel.
just as Peter says in his letter to the dearly beloved elect of God. That word elect means chosen of God for salvation.
For those He has called Peter tells us about them
2 Peter 1
The reason we have escaped the corruption, death of the world is due to His divine calling in our life. without that individual calling, we would be one of the damned.

In it's limited use, the word elect refers to the saved, NOT those chosen to be saved. We are not sprinkled with His blood, we are COVERED by His blood. God draws all people. Some respond positively, some don't.

 

[sdowney717]

James tells us not to be deceived about our individual salvation being a gift of God from above.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Done by HIS WILL.
As does Paul teach the same.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Personally, I think many people are deceived about salvation being the gift of God. they add in their own merit saying God looked down time and loved me because in a future life I chose for God, and so elected me based on my forseen faith.

 

[sdowney717]

In it's limited use, the word elect refers to the saved, NOT those chosen to be saved. We are not sprinkled with His blood, we are COVERED by His blood. God draws all people. Some respond positively, some don't.

Actually sprinkled is used here.

1 Peter 1

New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Sprinkled may have understanding hearkening back to something the priests did with the offerings to the Lord. Can look that up. I think they sprinkled the people.

 

[THIS]

If anyone here who is a professing Christian who claims they are still the worst of sinners, then you are in danger.

 

[Hammster]

If anyone here who is a professing Christian who claims they are still the worst of sinners, then you are in danger.

Of what?

 

[THIS]

Here you go, you bet I believe that.
Because it is believers who Jesus dies for that they will inherit eternal life, not unbelievers.

And who does Jesus say he gives up His life for? Believers in Him who are the sheep.
Jesus does not give up His life for unbelievers,
John 10
The other sheep he has are those in the gentile world who will believe because they have been predestined, He has foreknown them. They are known to the Lord before the sheep know Him, He knows them.

Tell me, why did they have to die in the desert and not get to enter the promised land?

 

[THIS]

Of what?

Jesus says IF you continue to follow his teachings...

John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, "If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

If you do not obey...

Matthew 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Romans 2:3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

1 Corinthians 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

1 Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either

 

[Hammster]

Jesus says IF you continue to follow his teachings...

John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Judeans who had believed him, "If you continue to follow my teaching, you are really my disciples and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

If you do not obey...

Matthew 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

John 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Romans 2:3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

1 Corinthians 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

1 Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either

Do you believe that Jesus is the Good Shepherd?

 

[stan1953]

James tells us not to be deceived about our individual salvation being a gift of God from above.
Done by HIS WILL.
As does Paul teach the same.
Personally, I think many people are deceived about salvation being the gift of God. they add in their own merit saying God looked down time and loved me because in a future life I chose for God, and so elected me based on my forseen faith.

No one is disputing that salvation is a gift, but like ANY gift, it has to be accepted to be of any use. God gives Grace and we accept that Grace, as James teaches in 4:1-12.