Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[FreeGrace2]

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[FONT=&quot]You need to stop it. I have given you scriptures of being warned.

Yes, you did. And NONE of them were about loss of salvation. It's time for you to stop making your claims.

We are warned about our salvation, our salvation for now, and for our salvation from the lake of fire. [/FONT]

If there is fear of or warning of the lake of fire, then we AREN'T saved from anything.

[FONT=&quot]Paul told him the message of the cross. The cross is about Jesus dying for our sins. If you think that Paul did not explain that, then you need to listen to me. I want you to know the Truth better.
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Of course I know what Paul preached. Why do you think I don't know this?

[FONT=&quot]I have already rebuked you with God’s Truth, but you will not believe.[/FONT]

No, you haven't. You've given Scripture which you don't understand.

[FONT=&quot]If you are sealed and in God’s hands, it could be a dreadful thing, if you do not obey God.[/FONT]

Agreed. Divine discipline can be extremely painful, or extremely unpleasant.

Note 1 Cor 10, 11:30, 1 Jn 5:16.

Hebrews 10:31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

[FONT=&quot]God does not force us to love Him.[/FONT]

Yes, and none of this says anything about loss of salvation.

There are NO verses that clearly indicate a loss of salvation. I've given you 3 passages and you have failed to interact with any of them. Why?

 

[FreeGrace2]

We can only be sure of our own salvation, if we hold on to the faith we had from the beginning.

So you think your own ultimate salvation is up to you, then??? Not on your life.

God promises eternal life to His children, those who have believed in His Son.

 

[stan1953]

Nope. It doesn't show that. Being useless doesn't mean unsaved.

Nope.

He is not talking about being useless, that would be an eisegetical reading. He is talking about losing their saltiness, and their light. Being thrown OUT.

“You are the salt of the earth, but if · salt has lost its taste, how will it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled under foot by people. You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under the meal-tub, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house."

Obviously Jesus is referring to salvic faith and it's accompanying walk. If we lose our salt and light we are no good for anything, just as Jesus says.
He doesn't say we will be kept to be re-salted or re-lighted. He says we will be thrown out. The rhetorical question clearly indicates we CANNOT be made salty again, we CANNOT be saved again.

 

[stan1953]

So you think your own ultimate salvation is up to you, then??? Not on your life.

God promises eternal life to His children, those who have believed in His Son.

and He says "IF we endure." Being born again gives us effectual Eternal Life, but we have to endure to receive that Eternal Life. I.E.; Die a Christian.

 

[sdowney717]

First, first, first ... YES ...
But, you are failing to emphasize that repentance must continue on throughout life!
Did you forget, or what?
.

God's people will repent of their sins being convicted by the Holy Spirit in their hearts to do that.
Philippians 2

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

That verse points to our cooperating with the Holy Spirit. And also the promise the God will enforce His will.
Like Mary , mother of Jesus, said, let it be done to me according to your word.

God also disciplines and chastises everyone whom He receives, otherwise you would be bastard children, children without a Father. He does not receive all persons, so then the world is not disciplined by God into son or daughter-ship.
God does not have fellowship with the world.

We should be immensely grateful we have been made accepted into the beloved, this done by His good pleasure and will. Thy will be done oh Lord!

Ephesians 1

New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[Skybringr]

God's people will repent of their sins being convicted by the Holy Spirit in their hearts to do that.
Philippians 2


God also disciplines and chastises everyone whom He receives, otherwise you would be bastard children, children without a Father. He does not receive all persons, so then the world is not disciplined by God into son or daughter-ship.
God does not have fellowship with the world.

We should be immensely grateful we have been made accepted into the beloved, this done by His good pleasure and will. Thy will be done oh Lord!

Ephesians 1

Purgatory. Just accept that it exists, and everything you say will make a lot more sense.

 

[sdowney717]

Purgatory. Just accept that it exists, and everything you say will make a lot more sense.

Purgatory would mean purging by fire. The support for such thing is not to ensure our already purchased by He blood salvation, but to do with the fire testing our works we did in this flesh in life.

Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire. For the world who do not know or obey God, fiery hell, the lake of fire. For believers, testing their works in God's fire.

Paul taught in 1 cor 3, that Gods fire would test our labors and if they endured we would receive a reward.
This is not some long purgatorial confessional process, all that we did will be exposed to the eyes of whom we must be judged, nothing will escape His attention. After our death comes our final judgement.

Heb 4

13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

1 Cor 3

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

' for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire;',

that is the Day of the Lord on His returning the world and all will be burnt up in fire of God.
And we will all be gathered and come before Him to marvel in what we have believed.

2 thess

God’s Final Judgment and Glory

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope.

He is not talking about being useless, that would be an eisegetical reading. He is talking about losing their saltiness, and their light. Being thrown OUT.

OK. So, why can't being "thrown out" not refer to being discarded in the sense of not being used by God? Why must the phrase "thrown out" refer to loss of salvation. Why can't it refer to divine discipline up to physical death?

I hold Arminians to the same standards as Calvinists. They don't believe that Christ died for everyone, in spite of clear verses about that. And there aren't any verses that specifically state that He died ONLY for some/etc.

So, to the Arminians, there are no verses that specifically state that one's salvation can be lost, and there are clear verses on eternal security.

Obviously Jesus is referring to salvic faith and it's accompanying walk. If we lose our salt and light we are no good for anything, just as Jesus says.

Sounds as if one must "be good" to be or stay saved. That's not Biblical.

He doesn't say we will be kept to be re-salted or re-lighted. He says we will be thrown out.

We see this principle in 1 Cor 11:30. Ever hear of divine discipline that included physical death?


The rhetorical question clearly indicates we CANNOT be made salty again, we CANNOT be saved again.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

and He says "IF we endure."

Right. And what's the context there in 2 Tim 2:12? Reigning with Christ, not maintaining salvation. It's about rewards for enduring.

Just as John wrote about in 2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Being born again gives us effectual Eternal Life, but we have to endure to receive that Eternal Life. I.E.; Die a Christian.

Wrong. 2 Tim 2:12, 2 Jn 8 say differently.

Again, please show me any verse that plainly speaks of loss of salvation. So far, you've injected your interpretation on the verses you've given.

 

[A New Dawn]

But that is quite awkward. I never hear Calvinists claim that Jesus died for ALL the elect. They always emphasize that He died ONLY for the elect.

John 6 makes it clear that Jesus will save all whom the Father gives to him. Maybe Calvinists feel that that verse is so clear that it doesn't need to be dwelled upon. Besides, Jesus dying only for the elect is a different issue than Jesus dying for all the elect. But Calvinists do understand and claim that Jesus died for all the elect. YOU might differ as to who the elect are, but that, also, is a different issue.

 

[THIS]

John 6 makes it clear that Jesus will save all whom the Father gives to him. Maybe Calvinists feel that that verse is so clear that it doesn't need to be dwelled upon. Besides, Jesus dying only for the elect is a different issue than Jesus dying for all the elect. But Calvinists do understand and claim that Jesus died for all the elect. YOU might differ as to who the elect are, but that, also, is a different issue.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus died for everyone. All have the choice. All can come to God to be saved; all have that access by faith.[/FONT]
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Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

 

[THIS]

So you think your own ultimate salvation is up to you, then??? Not on your life.

It is a RELATIONSHIP with God. God does not force me to stay.

I HAVE TO eat the flesh of Jesus. I HAVE TO live through the Spirit. I HAVE TO clothe myself with Christ. I HAVE TO overcome.

God promises eternal life to His children, those who have believed in His Son.

What about those who stop having faith?

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Hammster]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus died for everyone. All have the choice. All can come to God to be saved; all have that access by faith.[/FONT]
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Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

What do you mean by "Jesus died for everyone"? What exactly did His death accomplish?

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]If there is fear of or warning of the lake of fire, then we AREN'T saved from anything.

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[FONT=&quot]That makes no sense. I delight in the fear of the Lord. See Isaiah 11:3.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Agreed. Divine discipline can be extremely painful, or extremely unpleasant.

Note 1 Cor 10, 11:30, 1 Jn 5:16.

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[FONT=&quot]The discipline is to get us to REPENT. Where do you get that a person always repents after God disciplines them?[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Yes, and none of this says anything about loss of salvation.

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[FONT=&quot]If you are not living through the Spirit by obeying Jesus, tell me---what kind of salvation do you have now?
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[FONT=&quot]
There are NO verses that clearly indicate a loss of salvation. I've given you 3 passages and you have failed to interact with any of them. Why?

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[FONT=&quot]I have explained those scriptures to you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You are the one who ignores the scriptures.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 5:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][ Salt and Light ] “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Matthew 8:12[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 13:28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 14:35[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”[/FONT]

 

[THIS]

What do you mean by "Jesus died for everyone"? What exactly did His death accomplish?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

All have a chance to be saved, if they believe and obey.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

All have a chance to be saved, if they believe and obey.

What do you mean by "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world"? Did He take the punishment or something?

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]Okay, you don't like to be shown your mistakes, we get it.
Now, we can keep workin' @ dis until you get it right ...

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[FONT=&quot]We have to repent of the sins we did before being saved, and we have to repent of any sins we do after being saved.[/FONT]
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.[FONT=&quot]
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Yup, there's no IF about it ... we sin, period and end of story!
Next ...

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[FONT=&quot]You just said that about God’s Word.[/FONT]

 

[THIS]

What do you mean by "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world"? Did He take the punishment or something?

Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

You are repeating yourself, and not actually answering my questions. Try this one. Was He the propitiation for all sins of man everywhere? Was God's wrath actually satisfied by Christ's death?

 

[THIS]

You are repeating yourself, and not actually answering my questions. Try this one. Was He the propitiation for all sins of man everywhere? Was God's wrath actually satisfied by Christ's death?

I do answer your questions. Where in the scriptures does it say God's wrath was on Jesus?

Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus makes atonement for those who believe and obey him.

We are saved from the coming wrath.