Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[A New Dawn]

Well, that is clear from Scripture. Believe the promise of God.

1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” {this is a promise}

However, why not answer my questions regarding the Holy Spirit?

That has nothing to do with ordination and regeneration. Eternal life is the last in the chain of events. We are discussing the first (relatively speaking).

 

[shturt678s]

I am truly perplexed about your response here.

This is what I said:
The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer. It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

When believers sin, they grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. iow, their choice to sin grieves and/or quenches the Spirit.
I never said anything about unbelievers. I've been dealing with the Holy Spirit and believers. I used the word twice, once in each sentence.

What do you think that the command to be filled and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit means?

We don't want to even 'twist' questions regarding the precious Word do we? There is no such thing as "filled with the Holy Spirit," however there is with "filled in spirit" is valid.

And, what do you think the commands to stop grieving and quenching the Spirit means?

Old Jackster

 

[FreeGrace2]

That has nothing to do with ordination and regeneration. Eternal life is the last in the chain of events. We are discussing the first (relatively speaking).

Your post #102:
"Philippians 2:13 supports the fact that it is God who is responsible for our faith and our works.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

I answered that in #104.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We don't want to even 'twist' questions regarding the precious Word do we? There is no such thing as "filled with the Holy Spirit," however there is with "filled in spirit" is valid.

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit

 

[shturt678s]

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit

Invalid rendition sir. First and foremost my ol' sparring partner, this is only the tip of an iceberg regarding our diverse views of Scriptures.

Eph.5:18, "...but be filled in spirit;" Regarding en, "in" as instrumental or think that, besides being construed with the genitive, the dative, or the accusative of that with which the filling is done, this verb may also use "in" with reference to the filler, and thus our versions fallaciously translate, "Be filled with the Spirit."

But Paul would not combine "wine" tha tis used for the purpose of drunkenness with the Holy Spirit contextually and aspectually, the third Person of the Godhead. In this connection we need to review Gal.5:16-25; 6:8, where Paul uses "spirit" and not "Spirit" nine times my Christian brother.

En does not state "with" also, ie, what we are to be filled. Paul is not stating with what we are to be filled contextually, he has no opposite for "wine." Paul lets us gather what this filler is to be from the context again: it's spiritual joy, happiness, enthusiasm, thankfulness that overflow in the utterance of psalms, hymns, and odes, even as the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. This statement does not deal with the unio mystica but with the richness and the abundance of the spiritual life "in" our own "spirit." Our "spirit" is ever to be filled so what it overflows with spiritual expressions.

The fact that these expressions are due to the Holy Spirit is self-evident, for this spirit is the new life in us, which is to be full of spiritual emotions that press for utterance.

You, again, cannot say I didn't again go the mile with you sir although you will have to reject again of course,

Old Jackster

 

[extraordinary]

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him
will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” {this is a promise}

Yes, this verse echoes a few others ... there is no doubt about it.

However, because of about 100 other verses, I say ...

One who truly believes in Jesus (and His gospel)
will believe what He says and will do what he says!

Truly Believing = Truly Doing = Truly Obeying

What Jesus says, He actually INSISTS on ... such as:
repent, obey the commandments, obey Him, be forgiving, be righteous, etc. etc.

And these commands are actually hooked to the gaining and the losing of eternal life!
Everyone here has seen them and read them, so please don't ask me to post them.
For I've grown weary of posting all of these warnings over and over again!
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Invalid rendition sir. First and foremost my ol' sparring partner, this is only the tip of an iceberg regarding our diverse views of Scriptures.

Eph.5:18, "...but be filled in spirit;" Regarding en, "in" as instrumental or think that, besides being construed with the genitive, the dative, or the accusative of that with which the filling is done, this verb may also use "in" with reference to the filler, and thus our versions fallaciously translate, "Be filled with the Spirit."

But Paul would not combine "wine" tha tis used for the purpose of drunkenness with the Holy Spirit contextually and aspectually, the third Person of the Godhead. In this connection we need to review Gal.5:16-25; 6:8, where Paul uses "spirit" and not "Spirit" nine times my Christian brother.

En does not state "with" also, ie, what we are to be filled. Paul is not stating with what we are to be filled contextually, he has no opposite for "wine." Paul lets us gather what this filler is to be from the context again: it's spiritual joy, happiness, enthusiasm, thankfulness that overflow in the utterance of psalms, hymns, and odes, even as the mouth speaks from the abundance of the heart. This statement does not deal with the unio mystica but with the richness and the abundance of the spiritual life "in" our own "spirit." Our "spirit" is ever to be filled so what it overflows with spiritual expressions.

The fact that these expressions are due to the Holy Spirit is self-evident, for this spirit is the new life in us, which is to be full of spiritual emotions that press for utterance.

You, again, cannot say I didn't again go the mile with you sir although you will have to reject again of course,

Old Jackster

No, Jack, I don't "have to" reject again. Just going with what I know. And I do thank you and appreciate your inputs.

My Interlinear renders Eph 5:18 as "be filled by the Spirit".

I see the mention of wine as a comparison. Instead of being "under the influence of" wine, believers should be "under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

How would that be wrong.

And what does "be filled in Spirit" mean?

As always, thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, this verse echoes a few others ... there is no doubt about it.

However, because of about 100 other verses, I say ...

One who truly believes in Jesus (and His gospel)
will believe what He says and will do what he says!

Truly Believing = Truly Doing = Truly Obeying

What Jesus says, He actually INSISTS on ... such as:
repent, obey the commandments, obey Him, be forgiving, be righteous, etc. etc.

And these commands are actually hooked to the gaining and the losing of eternal life!

They are not. But I do undestand that you think that's what they mean. There is no any verse that clearly indicates by specific words that eternal life can be lost. Not one.

Everyone here has seen them and read them, so please don't ask me to post them.
For I've grown weary of posting all of these warnings over and over again!
.

The warnings are not about loss of eternal life. The warnings are about loss of eternal reward in heaven.

2 John 1:8
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Salvation cannot be described as a "reward", for rewards are given for what is earned. And salvation is NOT earned or deserved.

And notice the phrase "full reward". So what is being warned about is not salvation, but the blessings and reward that comes from what is earned. John wanted his audience to receive a full reward.

Heaven or eternal life cannot be seen as a "partial reward". But blessings can be. We can be fully blessed, or partially blessed or rewarded. Based on our faithfulness and obedience.

Your view denies the promise that God has made.

 

[extraordinary]

There is not any verse that clearly indicates by specific words that eternal life can be lost. Not one.

Let's go through 'em one @ at a time! (everyone's eyes are a-rollin')

Why not start here?

Rom 6:16
“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Foist of oil, all BACs are being warned: Do NOT be a slave of sin any longer!
Verses prior to this explain ...
Because of their new nature, they do NOT have to be slaves of sin any more!
(Butski, they sure can choose to be!)

People need to decide for themselves whether "death" here refers to physical or spiritual death, or both.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's go through 'em one @ at a time! (everyone's eyes are a-rollin')

Why not start here?

Rom 6:16
“Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Foist of oil, all BACs are being warned: Do NOT be a slave of sin any longer!

Yes, they ARE being warned to NOT be a slave of sin. But why do you default to "eternal separation from God because of being a slave to sin? There is no reason for that.

Paul is telling believers that those are present themselves as slaves to sin to obey leads to death. This can refer to either/both physical death (sin unto death per 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Cor 10, 11:30) or loss of fellowship (per 1 Jn 1).

Verses prior to this explain ...
Because of their new nature, they do NOT have to be slaves of sin any more!
(Butski, they sure can choose to be!)

And the warning is either loss of life through divine discipline or loss of fellowship, and its attendant blessings in this life.

iow, you want to "live it up"? Go ahead, and you'll be miserable trying to.

People need to decide for themselves whether "death" here refers to physical or spiritual death, or both.
.

Here's the clue. Since all believers are given eternal life, which is literally eternal, such life cannot die. So your assumptions are off base. Way off.

<eyes rolling out of our heads>

You did not succeed in providing a verse that tells us that eternal life can be lost.

What else do you have?

 

[Jack Terrence]

John 6:40
&#8220;For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.&#8221; {this is a promise}

The problem with your argument here is that the verb is subjunctive which according to you means that it is uncertain.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.&#8221; ESV

and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' Young's Literal Translation

Moreover, in John's writings eternal life is fellowship with God which you say can be lost.

 

[extraordinary]

Paul is telling believers that those are present themselves as slaves to sin to obey leads to death.
This can refer to either/both
physical death (sin unto death per 1 Jn 5:16, 1 Cor 10, 11:30)
or loss of fellowship (per 1 Jn 1).

Thou art hereby disqualified ... Didn't take long, did it?
Home run on the foist (and last) verse!
BIMA, 'twas even easier than I expected.

P.S. "either/both" should be followed by "and", not "or".
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem with your argument here is that the verb is subjunctive which according to you means that it is uncertain.

No, the problem is that you misunderstand what I've said. I've not argued that the subjunctive is 'uncertain'. What is uncertain is whether one believes, not whether one who believes receives eternal life.

"In English, we use the words "were," "should," "might," or "would" when we are speaking in the subjunctive mode. In each of the sentences above, only the possibility of eating spinach, or of being sick, or of being unable to go to work, or of not being paid is being considered. The reality remains contingent upon future developments. The case is contemplated with the action being hypothesized. Notice that although we will talk about present subjunctives, the subjunctive naturally looks to the future for the resolution of the contingency."

New Testament Greek​

and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' Young's Literal Translation

I will repeat; the subjunctive is about whether one believes or not, NOT whether one who believes will have eternal life.

Moreover, in John's writings eternal life is fellowship with God which you say can be lost.

Heavens, NO, it is NOT. If eternal life can be lost, then quit calling it eternal.

How many sins did Christ died for? Some of the them, or all of them? If you believe it is all of them, you have no right to claim that being a slave to sin causes loss of eternal life. If you say "some of them", then please provide any verse that actually says that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thou art hereby disqualified ... Didn't take long, did it?
Home run on the foist (and last) verse!
BIMA, 'twas even easier than I expected.
.

'Scuze me, but who made you arbiter, judge, jury and executioner? I refuted your view of the "foist verse", or didn't you actually read my post?

Try again.

btw, I'll ask you what I just asked Boxer. How many sins did Christ die for? All of them, or only some of them?

If you say all of them, you have no right to claim that being a slave to sin forfeits eternal life.

If you say only some of them, please provide any verse that actually says that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here's a link to an article on eternal security.

http://www.gbible.org/_files/pdf/Doctrine_of_Eternal_Security.pdf

 

[Jack Terrence]

I will repeat; the subjunctive is about whether one believes or not, NOT whether one who believes will have eternal life.

No! The subjunctive is about whether or not the promise attached to believing is quaranteed or not. You have argued this in the past. You have applied this to verses as, for example, "He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for Himself a peculiar people zealous of good works." Both the redemption and the sanctification are equally guaranteed, or they are equally not guaranteed.

If we believe, we are equally guaranteed both the redemption and the sanctification, or they are equally not guaranteed.

Heavens, NO, it is NOT. If eternal life can be lost, then quit calling it eternal.

Then fellowship with God CANNOT be lost! For in John's writings eternal life IS fellowship with God. This is how you Free Gracers compartmentalize truth. You say that eternal life cannot be lost, but that felowship with God can be lost. But thinking people don't compartmentalize this way. Thinking Christians know that eternal life IS fellowship with God.

"And THIS IS eternal life, that they might KNOW you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

John 17:3 is the one and only place where our Lord EXPLICITLY DEFINES eternal life.

How many sins did Christ died for? Some of the them, or all of them? If you believe it is all of them, you have no right to claim that being a slave to sin causes loss of eternal life. If you say "some of them", then please provide any verse that actually says that.

Christ died for all the sins of the elect. But I do NOT define 'eternal life' as quantitative. The Greek word aion means "eternal" only when speaking about things qualitative. But when speaking of things quantitative its always about something that has a beginning and an end.

What is the sign of your coming and the end of the age (aion)?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No! The subjunctive is about whether or not the promise attached to believing is quaranteed or not.

Absolutely wrong!

You have argued this in the past.

Absolutely wrong!

You have applied this to verses as, for example, "He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for Himself a peculiar people zealous of good works." Both the redemption and the sanctification are equally guaranteed, or they are equally not guaranteed.

Absolutely wrong!

If we believe, we are equally guaranteed both the redemption and the sanctification, or they are equally not guaranteed.

Correct. The "if" is the key to the subjunctive mood. We may or may NOT believe. But IF we do, then what follows WILL occur.

Then fellowship with God CANNOT be lost!

Absolutely wrong! Relationship is what cannot be lost. Fellowship is lost WHEN a believer sins.

For in John's writings eternal life IS fellowship with God.

Absolutely wrong! God is eternal life. There are no verses that support your claim.

This is how you Free Gracers compartmentalize truth. You say that eternal life cannot be lost, but that felowship with God can be lost.

Nothing has been "compartmentalized". One must only understand the difference between relationship, which cannot be lost, and fellowship, which can.

Let's use a human situation that you should be able to understand.

Marriage. When 2 people marry, they are in a RELATIONSHIP. But they may not always be in fellowship. If that doesn't make sense to you, then there is no hope of getting you to understand the difference.

But thinking people don't compartmentalize this way. Thinking Christians know that eternal life IS fellowship with God.

Those who think that aren't thinking. There is no verse that says that.

In fact, Jesus was clear about fellowship, without using that specific word.
Jn 15:3-11
3 &#8220;You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4&#8220;Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5&#8220;I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6&#8220;If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7&#8220;If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8&#8220;My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9&#8220;Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10&#8220;If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father&#8217;s commandments and abide in His love. 11&#8220;These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Here, Jesus is speaking to the remaining 11; Judas has departed. And v.3 establishes the FACT that they are all saved (clean). 3 times Jesus says "if", indicating subjunctive mood. The point is that "if" believers abide in Him, they WILL produce much fruit. That's fellowship, NOT relationship. The relationship has been established already (v.3).

The flip side is that "if" believers don't abide (fellowship) in Him, they can't produce fruit.

"And THIS IS eternal life, that they might KNOW you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Here's the word for "know"
gin&#333;sk&#333;

1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

Obviously refers to intimate knowledge. Only believers have such intimate knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who only know about Jesus or only know some things do have this intimate knowledge.

And believers possess eternal life. Pretty straight forward.

John 17:3 is the one and only place where our Lord EXPLICITLY DEFINES eternal life.

Yes. See above for details.

Christ died for all the sins of the elect.

Oh, stop it. There are NO verses that say that, or even imply that. None.

 

[shturt678s]

No, Jack, I don't "have to" reject again. Just going with what I know. And I do thank you and appreciate your inputs.

My Interlinear renders Eph 5:18 as "be filled by the Spirit".

I see the mention of wine as a comparison. Instead of being "under the influence of" wine, believers should be "under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

How would that be wrong.

And what does "be filled in Spirit" mean?

As always, thanks.

Will let it go for now, ie, known you for too long, and too much respect for you my Christian brother.

Old agreeing to disagree Jack

btw don't trust your Bible translations that much, ie, use your Interlinear and NA-28 a little more, ie, no sarcasm.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Will let it go for now, ie, known you for too long, and too much respect for you my Christian brother.

Old agreeing to disagree Jack

btw don't trust your Bible translations that much, ie, use your Interlinear and NA-28 a little more, ie, no sarcasm.

I absolutely do use my Interlinear a lot.

 

[shturt678s]

I absolutely do use my Interlinear a lot.

Especially in light of the ancient languages 'hyperbaton,' thank you again my ol' friend.

Old Jack