Twisted Scripture (False Doctrines)

[A New Dawn]

Try to look at it this way ...

If God gives His free gift of grace-faith to a person,
he is now able to believe ... and does so unto salvation.

But, to be saved still depends on the condition that he believes
... no matter how his believing (his faith) was accomplished.
.

I am not sure who you are responding to, since the quote with my name on it was actually from the quoted portion of my post, hence, it is not something I said. But I do agree with your conclusion. How the person who actually said that feels is beyond me.

 

[A New Dawn]

But there are no verses to support the idea that man is unable to believe what God promises. In fact, just the opposite. Many verses that tells man how to be saved. Just as the jailer asked.

If this "grace-faith" is a gift, by which man CAN and will believe, why didn't Paul include that in his answer? Because it's not part of the answer.

God has given mankind everything he needs to respond to His promise. Some will and many won't.

Philippians 2:13 supports the fact that it is God who is responsible for our faith and our works.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not according to 2 cor 4:3-6 ... disagrees with you

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

In v.3, the words "even if" are a clue. Paul didn't say that every single unbeliever in the history of mankind is blinded.

However, let's back up a few verses, to 3:15,16 -
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The sequence is clear. When a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

Calvinism seems to think that when God removes the veil, the person turns to the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Philippians 2:13 supports the fact that it is God who is responsible for our faith and our works.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The verse doesn't address faith at all. In fact, Paul wrote that to believers, who already have believed.

All believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is what the verse is referring to. And it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that any believer will "do of His good pleasure".

Therefore, this verse does not support that God is responsible for our faith.

Is there any verse that does clearly indicate that God is responsible for our faith?

 

[A New Dawn]

The verse doesn't address faith at all. In fact, Paul wrote that to believers, who already have believed.

All believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is what the verse is referring to. And it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that any believer will "do of His good pleasure".

Therefore, this verse does not support that God is responsible for our faith.

Is there any verse that does clearly indicate that God is responsible for our faith?

There are two things that it says God works in you to do. It says God works in you to both will and to do His good pleasure. So, yes, it does. It says you can only work out your salvation because God is in you, willing you to do so. That is what the "for" means at the beginning of the verse. Other versions show the relationship better than the KJV. "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." (NLT). "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (NIV). It is clear that God's work is on the will (giving you the desire) and the power to do what pleases Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are two things that it says God works in you to do. It says God works in you to both will and to do His good pleasure. So, yes, it does.

So, no it doesn't. Paul is speaking about the fact that believers are to do God's will and pleasure through the Holy Spirit, who is "in you".

The salvation mentioned in the previous verse refers to our sanctification. There are 3 tenses of salvation:
-the past, being saved from the penalty of sin,
-the present, being saved from the power of sin (our sanctification),
-and future, being saved from the presence of sin.

It says you can only work out your salvation because God is in you, willing you to do so.

Yes, I agree. Apart from the Holy Spirit, we are totally helpless to do God's will. We need His power. But that means we need to be "filled" (Eph 5:18) and to "walk by His means (Gal 5:16) in order to do it.

That is what the "for" means at the beginning of the verse. Other versions show the relationship better than the KJV. "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." (NLT). "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." (NIV). It is clear that God's work is on the will (giving you the desire) and the power to do what pleases Him.

Yes, God does give us His desires. But we (believers) must be filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit for this to occur.

When believers grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, this cannot occur.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, God does give us His desires. But we (believers) must be filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit for this to occur.

When believers grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, this cannot occur.

So, if we (believers) must be filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit for this to occur, how in the world can we do it before we are filled with the Holy Spirit (who wills us to desire God)?

 

[sdowney717]

So, if we (believers) must be filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit for this to occur, how in the world can we do it before we are filled with the Holy Spirit (who wills us to desire God)?

Exactly right, our faith is authored by Christ.
Romans 1 tells us all men are without excuse.
Without Him shining the light into our hearts (2 cor 4), we wont be His.

Those who believe are born from above, born of God.
John 1

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The ones who did receive Him did so because they were born of God, not of the will of the flesh or man or because they inherited it by blood.

'who were born' signifying what God did prior to belief, making them born again, regenerated before they believed.

Those who received Him did so because they were born of God.

 

[extraordinary]

But there are no verses to support the idea that man is unable to believe what God promises.
In fact, just the opposite. Many verses that tells man how to be saved.
Just as the jailer asked.
If this "grace-faith" is a gift, by which man CAN and will believe, why didn't Paul include that in his answer?
Because it's not part of the answer.
God has given mankind everything he needs to respond to His promise. Some will and many won't.

Time for another re-post ... here 'tis, ready or not ...

Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life through Jesus Christ and the gospel
because man is …

• born with an inherited sin nature …many verses
• spiritually dead in trespasses and sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
• a captive to the law of sin and death …Romans 6:14, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:2
• a slave to sin, forced to obey evil …John 8:34,Romans 6:6-20
• an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God …Romans 8:7, James 4:4
• spiritually blind and deaf …Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, Ephesians 4:17-18
• unable to receive the things of God …1 Corinthians 2:14
• seeing the gospel as utter foolishness …1 Corinthians 1:18
• hopeless because the truth of the gospel is only spiritually discerned …1 Corinthians 1:18
• unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled …2 Corinthians 4:3
• blinded by Satan …Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
• controlled (ruled) by Satan …John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Ephesians 2:2
• deceived by Satan …Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
• a captive of Satan unto death …Hebrews 2:14-15
• unable to be righteous by doing good works …Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
• unable to be saved by his own desire or works …Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
• able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God …Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
• NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[extraordinary]

But there are no verses to support the idea that man is unable to believe what God promises.
In fact, just the opposite. Many verses that tells man how to be saved.
Just as the jailer asked.
If this "grace-faith" is a gift, by which man CAN and will believe, why didn't Paul include that in his answer? Because it's not part of the answer.

God has given mankind everything he needs to respond to His promise. Some will and many won't.

Your detailed answers are a waste of time ... because either a person is ready or not.

Who has God prepared to believe @ any given moment?

'Tis obvious by seeing who responds to the gospel.

The one who does NOT respond with belief has NOT been enabled YET.

Maybe later, like even 1 minute later.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, if we (believers) must be filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit for this to occur, how in the world can we do it before we are filled with the Holy Spirit (who wills us to desire God)?

Seems you don't distinquish between indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit. They are not the same. The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe. That's called "indwelling", meaning He lives in us.

The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer. It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

When believers sin, they grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. iow, their choice to sin grieves and/or quenches the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Time for another re-post ... here 'tis, ready or not ...

Man is totally unnable to choose spiritual life through Jesus Christ and the gospel
because man is …

• born with an inherited sin nature …many verses
• spiritually dead in trespasses and sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
• a captive to the law of sin and death …Romans 6:14, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:2
• a slave to sin, forced to obey evil …John 8:34,Romans 6:6-20
• an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God …Romans 8:7, James 4:4
• spiritually blind and deaf …Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, Ephesians 4:17-18
• unable to receive the things of God …1 Corinthians 2:14
• seeing the gospel as utter foolishness …1 Corinthians 1:18
• hopeless because the truth of the gospel is only spiritually discerned …1 Corinthians 1:18
• unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled …2 Corinthians 4:3
• blinded by Satan …Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
• controlled (ruled) by Satan …John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Ephesians 2:2
• deceived by Satan …Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
• a captive of Satan unto death …Hebrews 2:14-15
• unable to be righteous by doing good works …Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
• unable to be saved by his own desire or works …Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
• able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God …Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7
• NOT allowed to choose ... God chooses only whomever He pleases … Romans 9:9-24
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Nice colors!

However, none of these verses say what you claim, that man is unable to believe. Seems you just think they mean that. But they don't SAY it, or even close to it. And some are completely irrelevant to the subject.

For example, your last point: "God chooses only whomever He pleases" from Rom 9:9-24. There is nothing there that TELLS us that man is unable to believe. In fact, the subject of that passage isn't even about faith or believing.

 

[extraordinary]

Seems you don't distinquish between indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit. They are not the same.
The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe. That's called "indwelling", meaning He lives in us.

The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer.
It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

Again, sorry to correct you, but ...

When "filling" or "filled" is mentioned, it is referring to one of two possible experiences:
1) the BAC being baptized with the Holy Spirit (an anointing, not the born-again experience)
2) the Spirit-baptized BAC being re-filled with the Holy Spirit

Spirit-baptized BACs are filled to overflowing one or more times in their lives.
The overflowing part refers to spiritual manifestations being observed at the time.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, sorry to correct you, but ...

When "filling" or "filled" is mentioned, it is referring to one of two possible experiences:
1) the BAC being baptized with the Holy Spirit (an anointing, not the born-again experience)
2) the Spirit-baptized BAC being re-filled with the Holy Spirit

Spirit-baptized BACs are filled to overflowing one or more times in their lives.
The overflowing part refers to spiritual manifestations being observed at the time.
.

Please don't be sorry, because your view needs correcting. There is no such concept as a "re-filling" of the Holy Spirit. This isn't like some gas tank.

The Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer. The goal is for the Holy Spriit to control our lives, which is the point of Eph 5:18.

Just as excess wine controls us, so must the Holy Spirit control us.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the identification of the believer as a child of God. This occurs at the moment of faith in Christ and regeneration.

 

[extraordinary]

FG2 ...

I'm perplexed, even amazed ... thou actually thinkest that thou knows everything about everything!
WOW!
.
It's okay, Jesus'll set you straight later.
.

 

[A New Dawn]

Seems you don't distinquish between indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit. They are not the same. The Holy Spirit is given to all who believe. That's called "indwelling", meaning He lives in us.

The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer. It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

When believers sin, they grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. iow, their choice to sin grieves and/or quenches the Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit walks with unregenerate persons and guides them? Can you show me some scriptures that show that this is the case?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG2 ...

I'm perplexed, even amazed ... thou actually thinkest that thou knows everything about everything!
WOW!
.
It's okay, Jesus'll set you straight later.
.

Were you unfamiliar with the Scripture that I quoted from, and what they mean?

Why do you think that I think that I know everything about everything?

If you think the verses I quoted don't mean what I said, then just explain how they do not.

The "jab" you took wasn't helpful in any way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So the Holy Spirit walks with unregenerate persons and guides them? Can you show me some scriptures that show that this is the case?

I am truly perplexed about your response here.

This is what I said:
The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer. It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

When believers sin, they grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. iow, their choice to sin grieves and/or quenches the Spirit.
I never said anything about unbelievers. I've been dealing with the Holy Spirit and believers. I used the word twice, once in each sentence.

What do you think that the command to be filled and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit means?

And, what do you think the commands to stop grieving and quenching the Spirit means?

 

[A New Dawn]

I am truly perplexed about your response here.

This is what I said:
The filling, or walking by His means refers to the choice to allow Him to guide the believer. It is also referred to as "fellowship", as noted by John in the 1st chapter of his first epistle.

When believers sin, they grieve and quench the Holy Spirit. iow, their choice to sin grieves and/or quenches the Spirit.
I never said anything about unbelievers. I've been dealing with the Holy Spirit and believers. I used the word twice, once in each sentence.

What do you think that the command to be filled and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit means?

And, what do you think the commands to stop grieving and quenching the Spirit means?

I don't know what conversation you are having, but I am having the conversation that one must be ordained and regenerated in order to believe. Therefore I am talking about unbelievers becoming believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't know what conversation you are having, but I am having the conversation that one must be ordained and regenerated in order to believe. Therefore I am talking about unbelievers becoming believers.

Well, that is clear from Scripture. Believe the promise of God.

1 John 2:25
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” {this is a promise}

However, why not answer my questions regarding the Holy Spirit?