Trump Sides With Christians - Again

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You asked me if I thought conservatives should just give up. I offered my reply to the question. I don't care about your opinion on where Mr Trump would take our country. Difficult conversation problem solved. Have a nice day.

So basically you just want Christians on the right to give up their political priorities. Wow, that will convince them!

 

[rambot]

Well no. It's a core aspect of your primary value system. Said system Trumps any Christian morality you may adhere to.

Now you've lost me.

Given that the loss of a fetus is only mentioned once in the Bible and that clearly indicates that the value of a fetus is NOT equal to the value of a mother, I'm not sure how ANY of this is part of a Moral Christian framework.

Have you actually read any Christian Nationalist literature or listen to them explain themselves? Do you know what a theocracy is?
Yeah.

1) What's their to explain? It's distasteful at best. Unchristian, at worst.
2) Yes.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Now you've lost me.

Given that the loss of a fetus is only mentioned once in the Bible and that clearly indicates that the value of a fetus is NOT equal to the value of a mother, I'm not sure how ANY of this is part of a Moral Christian framework.

Oh so you believe in the Bible alone and nothing else? No wonder you have your convictions then when you are utterly disconnected from those who have called themselves Christians for at least 1900 years.

Point is, Christian morality has always opposed killing childre in the womb. You might like and revere such practices but historically Christians have not endorsed such evil.

1) What's their to explain? It's distasteful at best. Unchristian, at worst.
2) Yes.

How is Christian Nationalism unChristian? I get how it violates your preferred Godless vision for society, but how is it unChristian? Christian Nationalism is mild compared to past actual Christian regimes and movements.

 

[rambot]

Oh so you believe in the Bible alone and nothing else? No wonder you have your convictions then when you are utterly disconnected from those who have called themselves Christians for at least 1900 years.

Yes. Apologies for following the teachings on the Bible in this matter. I can see that is really hard for you to accept.

Point is, Christian morality has always opposed killing childre in the womb. You might like and revere such practices but historically Christians have not endorsed such evil.

1) There has been a long battle for it. For example, to protect the mother's health:
Tertullian argued when it contravenes the health of the mother.
2) Saint Augustine basically argued "once it looks like a human then don't kill it".

So it hasn't really been as cut and dried as your pastors or faith leaders have led you to believe. And again, the prevailing Jewish understand of all holy passages is that a baby is not as important as the mom.

The current politics in the US is that the fetus is MORE IMPORTANT than the mom. And THAT directly goes against the teachings of the Bible.

3) I neither "like" nor "revere" abortion....at all, actually. I grieve those loses.


A Brief History of Religious Support for Abortion and Reproductive Rights

“Throughout history faith leaders, like those who founded the Clergy Consultation on Abortion in 1967, have worked to ensure that people in need of abortion care could access it safely and with dignity,” said Katey Zeh, CEO of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, in an email. “To honor that legacy in a post-Roe reality, my work is to ask the question, what is most needed now from people of faith in this time of reproductive crisis?”

How is Christian Nationalism unChristian? I get how it violates your preferred Godless vision for society, but how is it unChristian? Christian Nationalism is mild compared to past actual Christian regimes and movements.

Well it says to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and Strength. IT doesn't say to legislate mandatory love. It doesn't actually say to make anything mandatory through government actions.
We tend to pray that God guides their decisions.

Frankly, why Christians keep wanting to inject their faith into politics is gross. Personally, I think you throw your faith in the mud when you insist on taking it political. Your faith is about a personal and spiritual relationship with a divine creator and nothing to do with your forcing your belief system on anyone.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

3) I neither "like" nor "revere" abortion....at all, actually. I grieve those loses.

How can you grieve that which deserves to die? The mom can kill it without any restraint per your secular understanding right? What's there to grieve? It's not a person and is worthy of death based on its hosts desire right?

Can you quote me a Church father directly saying it is permissable to have an abortion at any point. Where did Augustine say he allowed abortion with such liberality like you do?

A Brief History of Religious Support for Abortion and Reproductive Rights




Well it says to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and Strength. IT doesn't say to legislate mandatory love. It doesn't actually say to make anything mandatory through government actions.
We tend to pray that God guides their decisions.

So you abstain from voting then?

Frankly, why Christians keep wanting to inject their faith into politics is gross. Personally, I think you throw your faith in the mud when you insist on taking it political. Your faith is about a personal and spiritual relationship with a divine creator and nothing to do with your forcing your belief system on anyone.

Interesting. Is this universal. All laws based on faith are gross and evil?

 

[rambot]

How can you grieve that which deserves to die? The mom can kill it without any restraint per your secular understanding right? What's there to grieve? It's not a person and is worthy of death based on its hosts desire right?

Honestly, this portion belies and complete ignorance on the context of this issue.
1) I don't think the fetus deserves to die
2) Per my biblical understanding. Get it right.
3) It's still a loss. Any time there is potential for love to be lost, I grieve it. At the same time, I grieve on the presumption of love based on my own context, understanding and capacity.

Quite frankly, I think the chances are VERY HIGH the parent likely wouldn't show any love to the child they didn't want. And frankly, folks like you aren't willing to adopt all these nonaborted babies.

Your use of the words "deserves" and "worthy" clunky and awkward attempts to try to paint something in my opinion that simply isn't there. But listen, I'm happy to help you come to a nuanced understanding if you need it. I'm just hoping that you'll be willing to stop characterizing my stance with your own little emotion imbued language.

Can you quote me a Church father directly saying it is permissable to have an abortion at any point. Where did Augustine say he allowed abortion with such liberality like you do?

Your original argument is that throughout time the church has been against abortion without exception.
That is not true.

So you abstain from voting then?

My goodness.
You really struggle with understanding if things don't fit how you understand the world eh?

Your little "So"s Law infraction isn't even relevant to what I wrote.

Interesting. Is this universal. All laws based on faith are gross and evil?

No. All obsessions on politics are though. Not necessarily "gross and evil". Closer to unimportant.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Honestly, this portion belies and complete ignorance on the context of this issue.
1) I don't think the fetus deserves to die
2) Per my biblical understanding. Get it right.
3) It's still a loss. Any time there is potential for love to be lost, I grieve it. At the same time, I grieve on the presumption of love based on my own context, understanding and capacity.

Again you don't grieve for it, because you support and cheer on its death. If you support a mother who wants to kill her child because she thinks it will be a burden on her, how does the child have any right to deserve life? It doesn't. It has to be killed and can be done so with your blessing and smile

Quite frankly, I think the chances are VERY HIGH the parent likely wouldn't show any love to the child they didn't want. And frankly, folks like you aren't willing to adopt all these nonaborted babies.

Therefore it doesn't deserve to live eh? Guess we should kill orphans then on this logic.

Your use of the words "deserves" and "worthy" clunky and awkward attempts to try to paint something in my opinion that simply isn't there. But listen, I'm happy to help you come to a nuanced understanding if you need it. I'm just hoping that you'll be willing to stop characterizing my stance with your own little emotion imbued language.

Eh, you can complain about it all you like it's ultimately where your heart lies. I get it, some people aren't meant to actually believe in Christian morality. You are more cut out for secular atheist morality.

Your original argument is that throughout time the church has been against abortion without exception.
That is not true.

Please provide a father who supports abortion in all circumstances like you do. Quote Augustine for me, please.

My goodness.
You really struggle with understanding if things don't fit how you understand the world eh?

I understand your worldview just fine. It's just not a Christian worldview.

Your little "So"s Law infraction isn't even relevant to what I wrote.

Actually it is. If you oppose religious influence on power do you also your own influence on power via your vote? Or do you have two separate moral systems one which Is Christian and one which is not? One which is fit for public life and one which is not? By voting you excercixe power and do you vote purely independent of any religious beliefs you have? Maybe, but it's a weird position for a Christian to take.

No. All obsessions on politics are though. Not necessarily "gross and evil". Closer to unimportant.

So there is room for religious o
Influence on law then? I can have a society for instance which encourages Christian monogamous marriage to the exclusion of Islamic polyamory?

 

[rambot]

Again you don't grieve for it, because you support and cheer on its death. If you support a mother who wants to kill her child because she thinks it will be a burden on her, how does the child have any right to deserve life? It doesn't. It has to be killed and can be done so with your blessing and smile

Therefore it doesn't deserve to live eh? Guess we should kill orphans then on this logic.

Eh, you can complain about it all you like it's ultimately where your heart lies. I get it, some people aren't meant to actually believe in Christian morality. You are more cut out for secular atheist morality.

Please provide a father who supports abortion in all circumstances like you do. Quote Augustine for me, please.

I understand your worldview just fine. It's just not a Christian worldview.

Actually it is. If you oppose religious influence on power do you also your own influence on power via your vote? Or do you have two separate moral systems one which Is Christian and one which is not? One which is fit for public life and one which is not? By voting you excercixe power and do you vote purely independent of any religious beliefs you have? Maybe, but it's a weird position for a Christian to take.

So there is room for religious o
Influence on law then? I can have a society for instance which encourages Christian monogamous marriage to the exclusion of Islamic polyamory?

tip...If in the first sentence you show no interest in representing me as I speak don't bother posting any other drivel cause I won't engage with it in any ways.
I would also recommend avoiding creating a world with dystopian extremes and no other paths.

Toodles

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

tip...If in the first sentence you show no interest in representing me as I speak don't bother posting any other drivel cause I won't engage with it in any ways.
I would also recommend avoiding creating a world with dystopian extremes and no other paths.

Toodles

How is a world where there is a Christian political and social order dystopian? Is the only legitimate option secular liberalism? A secular liberalism which only continues to expand in power and effectiveness and is far more dystopian than the Christian regimes of old?

 

[Stephen3141]

Yes, Trump has spoken out for Christians. But, Trump has not lived according to
the moral law of God.

In 2016, Hillary Clinton mocked conservative Christian groups, and I think
that this alienated so many people that they voted for Trump.

Now the Trump has spent 4 years as president, he has shown much more of his inner
behavior and beliefs. And these include a willingness to mock the fair rule of law
in America, and the department of justice. This is more shocking to me, than some
Americans mocking the Christian faith.

This is shocking, because it is the fair rule of law in America that guarantees
that Christian groups will have "freedom of religion". Upholding the fair rule
of law in America, is even more important than appealing to the political
support of Christians.
---------- ----------

By his mockery of judges and juries, and the legal system, Trump has shown
that he is NOT for law and order, as he claims.

And, by his continual claims that he is being indicted "for political reasons"
reveals that he does not understand the rigorous American legal system, that
requires that evidence accepted for an indictment meet a high standard of
quality. "Political motivations" have nothing to do with the citizens who have
sat on the grand juries looking at the evidence against Trump, and who have voted
that the Department of Justice HAS a valid case against Trump, to take to court.

Also, Trump has filed about 24 lawsuits claiming that the 2020 election was a massive
fraud, but has failed to include any believable and relevant evidence, for those claims.
Regardless of Trump's claim to be for law and order, Trump basically misunderstands
what valid evidence is, and how the legal system in America works.

The more that Trump quotes conspiracy theories (such as the "Deep State" plots)
to try to justify how he is being indicted, the more Trump alienates thinking American
citizens. These conspiracy theories are ridiculous, and fail to meet basic requirements
of verification, in order to be accepted into a court of law as evidence.
---------- ----------

The fair rule of law in America, is based on objective behavior, not on the "motivation"
of the prosecutors in the Department of Justice. Let any and all politicians be
indicted and tried for felonies, IF there is evidence of felonious behavior.

The more and more radical and outrageous claims of Trump, and his threats
toward judges and their families, is alienating American citizens who DO respect
the fair rule of law in America.

 

[markbrewer]

So what makes Trump more dangerous than the blatant evil of the Democrats or the American Political establishment in general?

his severe mental derangement. his childish behavior. his grievous ignorance. his inability to cope with reality. his alienation from anything that is called "good judgement". his lack of respect for anyone.

and not least, his psychopathic narcissism.

 

[markbrewer]

this ridiculous man does not "back Christians" because he shares our faith. he does whatever he does because he knows he has to have support of evangelicals. he has next to nothing without them. his latest maneuver, selling Bibles, should make his cynicism and his lack of true respect for the ways of God evident to everyone.

and on the other side, we have a man who is sinking into dementia, and does not, in general, support our beliefs.

somehow or another, American Christians have got to come up with a third way.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

his severe mental derangement. his childish behavior. his grievous ignorance. his inability to cope with reality. his alienation from anything that is called "good judgement". his lack of respect for anyone.

and not least, his psychopathic narcissism.

So Trump should be committed to an insane asylum and Americans not allowed to vote for him?

 

[mindlight]

I understand the hatred for Trump runs deep and thus never attempt to defend his egotistcal character, offensive statements, or questionable business dealings. But, his specific actions of support for Christianity in America and around the world has surpassed any other president since Ronald Reagan. To this point, his open, political platform has been and remains more compatible with the Christian faith than any of his Democratic opponents have demonstrated.

In the case of this article, I find it very interesting and telling that Trump boldly spoke out to defend America's Christian heritage, while Biden (also invited to speak) declined to even attend.

Trump Courts Christians at NRB Convention, Promises to Defend Faith and Religious Liberty

Former President Trump says he will defend Christianity and religious liberty if he wins the White House in November.

www2.cbn.com

Trump is entirely unfit to be president but he knows how to play some Republican Christians. Like him, they do not care about the poor or the oppressed and while they model a form of godliness it is hypocritical and even blasphemous. You know Trump is selling Bibles now to make money to fight his court cases and to fund his election campaign.

“It is a bankrupt Christianity that sees a demagogue co-opting our faith and even our holy scriptures for the sake of his own pursuit of power and praise him for it rather than insist that we refuse to allow our sacred faith and scriptures to become a mouthpiece for an empire,” said Rev. Benjamin Cremer on X.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/28/us/donald-trump-bible-christianity-cec/index.html

 

[Vambram]

After reading several posts by the Reverend Benjamin Cremer on X, I predict that he probably has voted mostly for liberal democratic politicians. His posts on X appear to support the idea that Christianity and the Church ought to be social justice warriors.

 

[mindlight]

After reading several posts by the Reverend Benjamin Cremer on X, I predict that he probably has voted mostly for liberal democratic politicians. His posts on X appear to support the idea that Christianity and the Church ought to be social justice warriors.

Social justice figured much higher in the early church than it does in modern republican thinking. Don't believe me - read the bible? A civilization is judged by how it handles its weakest members.

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’” Mt 25:40

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need." Act 2:44-45

“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered.” Prov 21:13

there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. Acts 4:34-35

 

[Vambram]

Those specific examples in the Book of Acts occurred because the Hebrew Christians had to come together and help each other. Church history of those early days teach that when a Jewish person became a Christian, more often than not, his or her family ostracized that person. They were also often ostracized from the Jewish society.

 

[Stephen3141]

this ridiculous man does not "back Christians" because he shares our faith. he does whatever he does because he knows he has to have support of evangelicals. he has next to nothing without them. his latest maneuver, selling Bibles, should make his cynicism and his lack of true respect for the ways of God evident to everyone.

and on the other side, we have a man who is sinking into dementia, and does not, in general, support our beliefs.

somehow or another, American Christians have got to come up with a third way.

I agree.

American Christians CANNOT let 2 political parties dictate hugely tribal
and narrow options, to them.

American Christians must let the political parties know that whoever of the politicians
breaks the fair rule of law in America, they should be indicted and prosecuted.

And, whoever in America threatens officers of the government (or law enforcement),
should be indicted and prosecuted.

Also, Christians should make it clear to all politicians that LYING is a sin
that Christians will not tolerate, in a public official. Politicians who lie, will
get no cover from Christian voters. Neither should Christians who lie (such as
those who continually propagate conspiracy theories) be key in Christian
congregations. Lying, gossip, and conspiracy theories are bedfellows.

Christians cannot allow politicians, to "define" the Christian faith.

[Could this site please turn off its "error" correction. It made more than one
change to my text, and the changes were not semantically near to what I
actually wrote.]