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Featured Trump is in violation of the canons of the Episcopal Church

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 5, 2017.

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  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    member: 20522"]Love your neighbour, as long as he isn't Republican.[/QUOTE]

    This isn't a politically partisan issue for me. His behavior really is at odds with the Episcopalians and my own church, and in an egregious way. This is not simply about his own personal faults, which I would not judge him f or, but his behavior is participating in a damaging Christian witness to the world and will scandalize the gay community against the name of Jesus. He is defending people whom our churches teach have erroneous consciences, when the proper thing to do is to refuse to assist them in shaming their gay neighbors.
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This isn't a politically partisan issue for me. His behavior really is at odds with the Episcopalians and my own church, and in an egregious way.

    This is not about his own personal faults, which I would not judge him f or, but his behavior is participating in a damaging Christian witness to the world and will scandalize the gay community against the name of Jesus. He is defending people whom our churches teach have erroneous consciences, when the proper thing to do is to refuse to assist them in shaming their gay neighbors.

    .
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    To the rest of us, or some of us, Trump's witness is good and better, not egregious, and not wrong. As he stands up for what is right and true, as God enables him to, this is a good thing to be accepted if not embraced.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You don't think Christians have a duty to protect those who are vulnerable from needless shame?

    Gay marriage is legal in the US. Gay people are going to get married whether Christians shame them or not. This whole thing is a horrible legal move cooked up by the "Christian" right to try one last-ditch effort to try to find some constitutional right to hurt gay people. Because it's really not about wedding cakes, it's about repealing and undermining antidiscrimination laws.
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This has nothing to do with what Trump did. It looks like mis-direction to me.
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Evangelical Lutherans and Episcopalians both have filed briefs in the Colorado Masterpiece Bakers case, in support of Colorado's position. They argue that ruling in favor of Masterpiece would open the door religious discrimination against those whose religion differs, and so this is actually a subtle threat to religious liberty.

    My church and others also argued that it is a threat to human dignity. The Episcopalians' brief did indeed cite the baptismal covenant of the Episcopal Church as a reason for their opposition. There can be no religious freedom without respect for the dignity of the human person.

    I agree, ruling in favor of Masterpiece unleashes indignity and incivility.

    How religious groups are responding to the Masterpiece Bakeshop Supreme Court case

    I think the arguments in favor of religious freedom and free expression are a red herring. The state has a duty first to the common good and general welfare of all citizens. We cannot allow grossly barbaric and inhumane acts in the name of religion. That makes a mockery of religious freedom as we Lutherans understand it.
     
  7. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I believe it, and I mean it. And as a society we DO that. Our tolerance for anti-black racism is gone: too much bloodshed and harm over too many centuries. Enough is enough.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Remember though Martin Luther, as in this short excerpt from internet search:
    "Looking back at the time of Martin Luther, the reformist was also against homosexuality as it was considered a sodomy, sinful and the works of the devil. According to ... Whence comes this perversion?"

    Do any Lutheran churches still hold so strongly to the original faith of Lutherans ?
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Has anyone in the past 2000 years been able to prevent this?

    Also, instead of trying to do something that cannot be done,
    what if instead we all stand for truth, purity in the church, righteousness in Christ Jesus, and trusting (resting and relying) in Yahweh's(God's) Word ?
     
  10. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As a follower of Jesus Christ, I am not called to stand for my own purity and righteousness, but I am called to love my neighbor as myself. I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me. Why would I want to dishonor that through self-righteous acts that are meaningless?
     
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Don't you recognize that self-righteous acts are NOT PURE, and NOT RIGHTEOUS?
    Who said to stand for your own purity and righteousness ?
    Without purity and righteousness, it is impossible to love even yourself,let alone anyone else.
    Without purity and righteousness, Christ Righteousness is not imputed to anyone.
    When Christ's Righteousness is imputed to anyone, their lives show it clearly - even unbelievers can see the difference, as sin is absent then (by God's Doing).

     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No one in Christ does nor would want to.
    Just as no one in Christ would want to dishonor
    that through sinful acts or thoughts either.
     
  13. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Some of us answer to a higher authority than the postmodern “morality” of secular society. And nowhere in this case is anyone “shaming” the gay community, so let’s depart with the hyperbole.


    No, it’s about the rights of people not to be forced to participate in another person’s sinful behavior. Repeatedly throughout scripture God tells us not to sin (not just “don’t get into trouble” like you’ve claimed in this thread). Many, if not most, of us here know gay people personally. They’re our friends, our family, our co-workers, and yes, even our fellow church goers. We can love them, as we are called, but that doesn’t mean we should help enable their sin any more than we should enable anyone’s sin, including our own.
     
  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not treating gays as equals is shaming. You don't get to define what is and is not shaming. Most people who are not captivated by the ideology of the religious right understand this.
     
  15. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Do you honestly not understand how someone can love the sinner yet not love the sin? Because you seem to think the two are mutually inclusive.
    "For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22:14
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Regardless of what anyone does to anyone on earth,
    on Judgment Day Jesus sends the unrepentant sinners away, no matter what their sin was (sexual or otherwise, heterosexual included, and even just greed).

    So it is better, as the Apostles write inspired by Yahweh Sovereign Creator,
    for people TODAY, while they still are able to, to repent
    EVEN IF it is EMBARRASSING (shamed?) and devastating -
    because
    it is so much better to be embarrassed now, and devastated,
    instead of cast out on Judgment Day.
    Would anyone dare disagree with Yahweh's Word ?
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What Mr. Philips did, my church does not define as a loving act. It was a meaningless, fearful act that does not speak to a bold confidence in God's grace.

    Mr. Philips needs prayer, not affirmation in his erroneous conscience.
     
  18. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Amen, brother!

    "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26
     
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  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Obviously, it is clear there are now two different religions in this world, one follows Jesus in loving others with prodigal grace, the other is fear-driven and puritanical.
     
  20. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest, friend. Seeing as you've stated your church doesn't even believe God commands us not to sin, their opinion is moot. And in keeping with the TOS here, I'll simply state I am so, SO glad I do not attend there. I prefer a church that preaches from the Bible.
     
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