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Featured Trump is in violation of the canons of the Episcopal Church

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by FireDragon76, Dec 5, 2017.

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  1. DW_in_AR

    DW_in_AR New Member

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    Can you cite the exact canon he is violating, why the canon is applicable to him, and the specific actions he has taken that violate that canon? Not your personal interpretation of the baptismal covenant, please.
     
  2. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Ozymandian

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    What a bunch of hogwarsh!
     
  3. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    If he could also cite where Jesus told His disciples to partake in or enable sin, that would be helpful too. I seem to recall Him being pretty big on the whole "sin no more" thing. :scratch:
     
  4. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    The bakers have a good shot at winning based on the principle of free speech. Their cakes are works of art, and people ought not be compelled to make works of art that violate their artistic vision.
    As far as Trump disrespecting Jesus by what he has to say on this, that is an extremely cryptic way of imagining reality to stretch a point that far.
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I am no canon lawyer but that can be logically deduced from the liturgy and statements of clergy that discrimination against gays or supporting discrimination against gays in public services is not acceptable for a Christian.

    I know in my own church denomination, which is in fellowship with the Episcopalians, our constitution does indeed say that we are opposed to discrimination against gays in public services.

    I think Albion and Paidiske have been helpful in showing me a different point of view. While it may be an egregious sacrilege that Trump receives communion, realistically there is little that can be done through official church channels in terms of discipline, as the priests and clergy of the church he attends are ultimately the ones that decide whether or not he communes.

    But it is something that Episcopalians could start talking about, about at what point the Church insists on correcting a powerful leader who benefits from their hospitality and reputation, while at the same time living a life that is so opposed to the faith.
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I think that's the most ridiculous defense I've ever heard.

    A wedding photographer is no Robert Maplethorpe or Andy Warhol. It's not a speech act, it's a public service.
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Our church doesn't read that verse that way, it's been used by Pharisees over the centuries unjustly. Jesus is just saying "Don't get into trouble".
     
  8. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    So when Jesus says “ sin no more” you think he’s really saying “don’t get caught”?
     
  9. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    I find the portion quoted above suspect, considering Trump's spoken views on the subject. Trump has claimed to be a Presbyterian, but if that is the case, he is a liberal one at best. A conservative Presbyterian would strive to overturn favorable laws and decrease influence of the minority gay/homosexual movement. The problem as I see it, is rather than love the sinner and hate the sin, is societies are increasingly embracing love the sinner and love the sin, or even more progressive, love the sinner and what sin? When sin is no longer sin, there is a much deeper problem.
     
  10. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Not necessarily. But we don't read this as a right to judge sinners indiscriminately. We should used discretion in how we point out the sins of others, or even if we do so at all. Which is one reason I sought input from other Christians on what our response should be.

    I think his refusal to be established in a Christian community and become a real member speaks to a deeper spiritual issue. Accountability is crucial for discipleship. This kind of individualism isn't really part of the Christian faith as I understand it. It's one thing to grant hospitality to others but hospitality can be abused.

    Progressives talk about cultural appropriation and that's sort of what happens when you go to a church for years but refuse to be a member. Attending twice a year is sufficient for him to be a member at that church, and I would not think of him as a lesser Christian for comiting to catechism but only attending sporadically.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  11. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Grace and mercy are available to all, but the law has to be a signpost to truth and righteousness. A gay wedding cake is actually an expression of blasphemous defiance against God. It is ludicrous and deeply wrong that a Christian baker should be compelled to create and sell a product that is contrary to his own beliefs. If Trump is supporting the view that no business should be compelled to sell products contrary to their own mission statements then he is on the right side of justice and the true church. Afterall you do not ask monks to sell guns to drug barons.
     
  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    So what exactly do you think Jesus means when he says "sin no more"? I mean no disrespect here, but if we can't even agree that God tells us not to sin (even though it's literally all throughout the Bible), Then everything else is kind of up for grabs. Telling us not to sin...it's kind of a big deal.
     
  13. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I'm a Lutheran which means I am primarily concerned with the Gospel and how it is articulated. The ethics of talking about sin, on the other hand, are not so straightforward, since it is possible to do a great deal of damage to faith in the name of upholding the Law. We have to be careful. Personally, I trust the wisdom of my denomination's theologians and seminaries in teaching our pastors to shepherd our flocks.

    We want to offer faith to everyone as a gift, but at the same time we want to also talk about how that gift comes at a great cost. We do not necessarily want to press that issue to the point that faith is no longer a possibility, to commit a sin against hope. We do not want to make sinners despairing in the name of our own righteousness, but to repent and believe.
     
  14. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    So what exactly do you think Jesus means when he says "sin no more"?
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    "Stay out of trouble". The answer is in the context of the story, and that alone. This is not permission to bully sinners.
     
  16. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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    Surely not any baptised Christian, but ony those bapised with a trinitarian baptism.
     
  17. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    I never said anything about bullying sinners, or calling them out for that matter. So please stay on track here.

    The question was simply what does Jesus mean when he tells us to sin no more. You replied that he doesn't actually mean that. Sounds a lot like Genesis 3:1 to me.

    "“Did God really say, ‘You must not [sin]?"”

    By the way, you do know that literally throughout the Bible, start to finish, God tells us not to sin, right? This is really, really fundamental stuff.
     
  18. Paidiske

    Paidiske Bodily member Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Knowing when to refuse someone communion is not an easy thing. I think perhaps we err on the side of doing it too little at the moment, but I certainly would not want to become too over-zealous instead.

    Anglicans would not recognise a non-trinitarian baptism as valid.
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I appreciate your responses, P. You've helped to clarify the whole thing a great deal and I realize it's more complicated than I assumed, there are other legitimate principles to consider, other than the outrage I felt.

    I just hate this being the public face of "Christianity", a baker who refuses to bake a cake because he's scrupulous. I want a bold proclamation of love, but I guess like many things in this world, Christ is crucified over again.
     
  20. Paidiske

    Paidiske Bodily member Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It's difficult. You have a President who is claiming a public Christian identity but then not living up to it very well. Asking what the response of Christian leaders to that ought to be is a fair question!
     
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