True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

I don't think they understand the pass mark to be righteous before God under the law. It is 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. James 2:10, Gal3:10&11, Rom 4:14&15

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I don't think they understand the pass mark to be righteous before God under the law. It is 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. James 2:10, Gal3:10&11, Rom 4:14&15

hahaha! It's almost like being atheistic in the mind and not even knowing it. Even worst narcissism. Not anyone in particular, just saying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's a lot of nice talk, none of which answers the question. Do good works help get us saved? Yes or no

Do good works get us saved?

It depends on what works you are talking about.

If you are talking about man directed works, then the answer would be a... "no." (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5).

If you are talking about God directed works, such as the good work of the Holy Spirit in how that needs to happen a person's life in order for them to be born again so as to enter the Kingdom of God, then the answer would be a.... "yes." If you are talking about how Christ works in the believer because He lives in them, then the answer would also be a... "yes." For faith without works (ie. God directed works) is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17-19). For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9). How are they obeying Him? Did Paul take the credit in how he labored more than all his brethren? Not according to 1 Corinthians 15:10. For a good tree will bring forth good fruit. If God or Christ lives in a person, then good fruit will be the result of that believer in being saved. Does the work of Christ moving in the believer save them? More like it continues to keep the salvation that they already have in Him. When Christ works in the believer to conform more and more in His own image, they are continuing to keep their life aligned with the sacrifice that He made upon the cross (i.e. the Substitionary Atonement). They are continuing to prove their present salvation is true. Salvation is not something one must attain. Salvation can be had right here and right now. A person can have an assurance of salvation. God directed works are merely the result of having Christ (God) in our life. A believer will naturally want to do these things because they are changed spiritually and because God will desire to do those good works in their heart and life (after they have surrendered to Him completely). If a believer is failing to measure up, they have God's grace so as to repent of their sins and get their heart right with God so that the Lord can fully live in their life.


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[stuart lawrence]

Its a fleshy thing wanting a law of righteousness. People want to believe they have earnt their way to Heaven-pride.
It is natural to man to want to feel he has achieved, he has earnt what he gets, but it is not God's way

 

[Bible Highlighter]

hahaha! It's almost like being atheistic in the mind and not even knowing it. Even worst narcissism. Not anyone in particular, just saying.

Actually, I always thought that if I believed in OSAS, I would have to be a sociopath or I would have to possess some kind of Anti social personality disorder (that ignores morality on some level).

Here is a listing of symptoms from Mayo Clinic.

Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
• Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
• Recurring difficulties with the law
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
• Child abuse or neglect
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Irresponsible work behavior
• Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior.

Granted, child abuse, violence, unnecessary risk taking, difficulties with the law, irresponsible work behavior is not what I had in mind, but the rest on that list sounds dead spot on in describing my dealings with those who hold to OSAS and who have told me that they are presently "sinners" saved by God's grace.

Source:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...onality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027920

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Actually, I always thought that if I believed in OSAS, I would have to be a sociopath or I would have to possess some kind of Anti social personality disorder (that ignores morality on some level).

Here is a listing of symptoms from Mayo Clinic.

Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
• Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
• Recurring difficulties with the law
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
• Child abuse or neglect
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Irresponsible work behavior
• Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior.

Source:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...onality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027920

Wow, you know so many of them so well. Thanks for giving us a heads-up to know exactly who watch out for.


Blessings....
From Your Friend...
SeraphimsCherub

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its a fleshy thing wanting a law of righteousness. People want to believe they have earnt their way to Heaven-pride.
It is natural to man to want to feel he has achieved, he has earnt what he gets, but it is not God's way

Well, that is bearing false witness in what I actually said. Where did I say I had to earn my salvation? Nowhere did I mention that it was man directed works that saves a person. I believe it is God directed works and I do not believe that God directed works are a means to earning salvation but they are merely the proof that Christ lives in a person.


....

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, that is bearing false witness in what I actually said. Where did I say I had to earn my salvation? Nowhere did I mention that it was man directed works that saves a person. I believe it is God directed works and I do not believe that God directed works are a means to earning salvation but they are merely the proof that Christ lives in a person.


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You believe in a law of righteousness. Therefore you believe Heaven is obtained by observing the law. You may say it is the work of Christ in you, but your posts are all about, and inferring what man must do.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, that is bearing false witness in what I actually said. Where did I say I had to earn my salvation? Nowhere did I mention that it was man directed works that saves a person. I believe it is God directed works and I do not believe that God directed works are a means to earning salvation but they are merely the proof that Christ lives in a person.


....

The person who in their heart most loves God is the person who DOES NOT believe in a law of righteousness. For they have such love and gratitude for eternal security based on what Christ has done for them. Those who believe in a law of righteousness cannot love God in this way, for heaven has to be earned.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

The person who in their heart most loves God is the person who DOES NOT believe in a law of righteousness. For they have such love and gratitude for eternal security based on what Christ has done for them. Those who believe in a law of righteousness cannot love God in this way, for heaven has to be earned.

Great Post My Brother~!!!~

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow, you know so many of them so well. Thanks for giving us a heads-up to know exactly who watch out for.

Blessings....
From Your Friend...
SeraphimsCherub

I am merely saying what I did as a cold splash of water for them to wake up and see.
But we have to pray for them and love them, though. We have to do good unto them.


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[stuart lawrence]

The works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. God is not interested in works done with a view they will better enable a person to attain Heaven. That speaks of Christ's sacrifice as being insufficient

The sheep and the goats??

 

[stuart lawrence]

QUOTE]

 

[stuart lawrence]

Actually, I always thought that if I believed in OSAS, I would have to be a sociopath or I would have to possess some kind of Anti social personality disorder (that ignores morality on some level).

Here is a listing of symptoms from Mayo Clinic.

Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:

• Disregard for right and wrong
• Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
• Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or for sheer personal pleasure
• Intense egocentrism, sense of superiority and exhibitionism
• Recurring difficulties with the law
• Repeatedly violating the rights of others by the use of intimidation, dishonesty and misrepresentation
• Child abuse or neglect
• Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, impulsiveness, aggression or violence
• Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
• Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behaviors
• Poor or abusive relationships
• Irresponsible work behavior
• Failure to learn from the negative consequences of behavior.

Granted, child abuse, violence, unnecessary risk taking, irresponsible work behavior is not what I had in mind, but the rest on that list sounds dead spot on in describing my dealings with those who hold to OSAS and who have told me that they are presently "sinners" saved by God's grace.

Source:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...onality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027920

The three I have underlined are all traits of those who believe in a law of righteousness, and have been seen in this thread

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. God is not interested in works done with a view they will better enable a person to attain Heaven. That speaks of Christ's sacrifice as being insufficient

The sheep and the goats??

But the sheep and the goats passage actually refutes your belief, though. For those believers who refused to do any good to help the poor were cast into the fire to be destroyed.

See Matthew 25:31-46.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The three I have underlined are all traits of those who believe in a law of righteousness, and have been seen in this thread

And you are referring to Works Salvationists or those who hold to the idea that they must do certain works of the Old Law of Moses to be saved.


....

 

[stuart lawrence]

But the sheep and the goats passage actually refutes your belief, though. For those believers who refused to do any good to help the poor were cast into the fire to be destroyed.

See Matthew 25:31-46.


...

Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was ill and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”

37 ‘Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you?”

40 ‘The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”

44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”

45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”

46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.’


Jason, I have been to various churches far longer than you have been alive. Churches with your views do far less to help the poor and unfortunate than churches without your views. Churches with your views by and large just mix with each other in the churches. Those who go out and help the hungry, poor, lame, etc are not normally found in churches with your views

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The person who in their heart most loves God is the person who DOES NOT believe in a law of righteousness. For they have such love and gratitude for eternal security based on what Christ has done for them. Those who believe in a law of righteousness cannot love God in this way, for heaven has to be earned.

The Bible says, he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). The Bible says he that does evil hates the light unless their deeds should be reproved (i.e. "reproved": Meaning, if they repent of their evil deeds). (John 3:20).


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[stuart lawrence]

And you are referring to Works Salvationists or those who hold to the idea that they must do certain works of the Old Law of Moses to be saved.


....

The above is not a credible statement Jason. You were never under the mosaic law in the first place. It never applied to you. Therefore Jesus death at calvary, according to your stated belief gained you nothing

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Bible says, he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). The Bible says he that does evil hates the light unless their deeds should be reproved (i.e. "reproved": Meaning, if they repent of their evil deeds). (John 3:20).


...

So Jason, as you fail to obey the moral law at times you are of the devil-yes?