True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was ill and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”

37 ‘Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you?”

40 ‘The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”

44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”

45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”

46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.’


Jason, I have been to various churches far longer than you have been alive. Churches with your views do far less to help the poor and unfortunate than churches without your views. Churches with your views by and large just mix with each other in the churches. Those who go out and help the hungry, poor, lame, etc are not normally found in churches with your views

Well, while I believe some Institional churches do hold genuine worship, I do not believe in attending Institutional churches (i.e. a church building) because it is not the Biblical model we see in Scripture. Believers gathered in their homes to have intimate fellowship in small groups and to celebrate the Lord's supper. Also, you do not know what I do for the poor. You are implying that I do nothing to help them by suggesting I have fellowship with others who do not do so.


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[stuart lawrence]

Well, while I believe some Institional churches do hold genuine worship, I do not believe in attending Institutional churches (i.e. a church building) because it is not the Biblical model we see in Scripture. Believers gathered in their homes to have intimate fellowship in small groups and to celebrate the Lord's supper. Also, you do not know what I do for the poor. You are making assumtpions without even asking me that are simply not true.


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Well as this is the internet, whatever you told me I would treat with scepticism. What I can tell you is from 40 years of experience, most who hold to your beliefs are not people who go out to help the poor, downtrodden, sick etc. They normally just mix with like minded people as they in the church. They gravitate to people on their social/academic level and level of affluence

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The above is not a credible statement Jason. You were never under the mosaic law in the first place. It never applied to you. Therefore Jesus death at calvary, according to your stated belief gained you nothing

Why are twistng around what I say again? Where did I say I was under the Law of Moses? Where did I say I believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Well as this is the internet, whatever you told me I would treat with scepticism. What I can tell you is from 40 years of experience, most who hold to your beliefs are not people who go out to help the poor, downtrodden, sick etc. They normally just mix with like minded people as they in the church. They gravitate to people on their academic level and level of affluence

Again, you are looking to people who are into Man Directed Works Salvationism (of which is something I do not believe). You have refused to understand what I actually believe and have just lumped me into their camp because it is more comfortable for you to do so as a way of justifying your wrong belief.

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[stuart lawrence]

Why are twistng around what I say again? Where did I say I was under the Law of Moses? Where did I say I believe in Man directed Works Salvationism?


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You didn't say you were under the law of moses. I never said you did say that
But as you believe Jesus only died at calvary to annul a righteousness of obedience to that law, Christ's death at calvary cannot be of benefit to you, for Gentiles were never under that law in the first place

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, you are looking to people who are into Man Directed Works Salvationism (of which is something I do not believe). You have refused to understand what I actually believe and have just lumped me into their camp because it is more comfortable for you to do so as a way of justifying your wrong belief.

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Firstly, I have taken into account all you have said in these debates. I do not have the wrong belief, as many Christians have testified, including those who have been ministers for decades.
By your own admittance you are in a small house group and are self taught, that is a red flag immediately!
Time and time again you have been proved to be wrong concerning your law of righteousness but refuse to accept it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Jason, as you fail to obey the moral law at times you are of the devil-yes?

An alcoholic who has stumbled on occasion on his road to recovery does not mean he was living the life of a drunkard like he used to be. 1 John 3 is talking about a believer's continual state in the way they live day in and day out. However, if a believer confesses their sins, he is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins and to cleanse them of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But you do not believe confession is necessary to be forgiven, though. But that is what 1 John 1:9 plainly says.


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[stuart lawrence]

An alcoholic who has stumbled on his road to recovery does not mean he was living the life of a drunkard like he used to be because he had stumbled on his path to being sober. 1 John 3 is talking about a believer's continual state in the way they live day in and day out. For if they confess their sins, he is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins and they can be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But you do not believe confession is necessary to be forgiven, though. But that is what 1 John 1:9 plainly says.


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I will tell you now. If you want to attain heaven under a law of righteousness there is only one pas mark to achieve it. 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. If you deny that is the truth, you do not know the truth of the bible.

What you are really saying is. ''My sin is ok, yours isn't. Please read Rom 2:1-3
For you constantly say sin must cease, yet yours does not. You demand sinless perfection as achieveable, yet you are not sinless in your flesh are you. So you preach a message you do not attain to in your own life.
That is what people with your beliefs do Jason, I have seen it all my life

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Firstly, I have taken into account all you have said in these debates. I do not have the wrong belief, as many Christians have testified, including those who have been ministers for decades.
By your own admittance you are in a small house group and are self taught, that is a red flag immediately!
Time and time again you have been proved to be wrong concerning your law of righteousness but refuse to accept it.

Well, if that were true, by your own admission: The apostles who met in homes and not in some kind of church building should also have to be red flagged immediately then, too.

As for your statement that you do not have a wrong belief: Well, your constant attack against me (Instead of sticking with Scripture) and your bearing false witness against me contnually does not bode well for you in making me and others think you are of God, my friend.

Side Note:

Oh, and there are many verses I have posted here that you have failed to explain to me. So I do not believe you when you said you have taken into account all of what I have said. For you have refused to explain important verses that refute your belief (not only by me but by others, too).




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[Bible Highlighter]

I will tell you now. If you want to attain heaven under a law of righteousness there is only one pas mark to achieve it. 100% perfect obedience, no slip ups. If you deny that is the truth, you do not know the truth of the bible.

What you are really saying is. ''My sin is ok, yours isn't. Please read Rom 2:1-3
For you constantly say sin must cease, yet yours does not. You demand sinless perfection as achieveable, yet you are not sinless in your flesh are you. So you preach a message you do not attain to in your own life.
That is what people with your beliefs do Jason, I have seen it all my life

Again, please stop bearing false witness against me. I do not believe in attaining anything by a law of righteousness as you suggest. We've already been over this already. I believe I have an assurance of my salvation right here and right now by believing Jesus Christ is my Savior. I believe good works are God directed works (Which are the result of Christ living in my life).


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[stuart lawrence]

Well, if that were true, by your own admission: The apostles who met in homes and not in some kind of church building should also have to be red flagged immediately then, too.

As for your statement that you do not have a wrong belief: Well, your constant attack against me (Instead of sticking with Scripture) and your bearing false witness against me contnually does not bode well for you in making me and others think you are of God, my friend.


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Jason, you are the one who has done the bearing false witness. It is not just me who has noticed it. You have distorted what I believe, proclaimed I believe things I have never stated. Therefore, according to what you have written, that does not bode well for you in making others think you are of God.
The church was not established all over the place as it is now in Acts was it. You have great error Jasonj, your law of righteousness epitomises it. But as you are self taught, there is far more chance of having error than would otherwise be the case

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, please stop bearing false witness against me. I do not believe in attaining anything by a law of righteousness as you suggest. We've already been over this already. I believe I have an assurance of my salvation right here and right now by believing Jesus Christ is my Savior. I believe good works are God directed works (Which are the result of Christ living in my life).


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Jason, you keep stressing a law of righteousness is in place. Therefore, that is your rightstanding/justification before God. You do know righteousness means justification don't you? How can you deny this is the truth? How can you say I am bearing false witness against you? Over and over again you stress/insist a law of righteousness is in place. Please Jason, do not bear more false witness by accusing me of false witness when all I am doing is repeating your oft and plainly stated views

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But I believe God does the work thru the believer. That is why you are bearing false witness against me. You leave that little fact out so as to justify your own wrong belief.


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[stuart lawrence]

But I believe God does the work thru the believer. That is why you are bearing false witness against me. You leave that little fact out so as to justify your own wrong belief.


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Jason, then whos fault is it if man continues to sin? You will now have to say man won't you?
So despite what you say, in your heart you want some of the credit for obedience/attaining Heaven. In your heart you will think. I have done well. I have persisted in looking away from the flesh and to God.
Think about it Jason. Your whole attitude is one of condemnation unless people perform almost perfect.
So what you are really saying is.
I perform almost perfect, you must attain to where I am

 

[stuart lawrence]

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[stuart lawrence]

But I believe God does the work thru the believer. That is why you are bearing false witness against me. You leave that little fact out so as to justify your own wrong belief.


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This is where your confusion shows. On the one hand you accept all born again people have been supernaturally changed into people who desire obedience. The only Christians are born again Christians, there are none other. God WILL NOT cast anyone into hell who in their heart desires to obey him and accepts his son as their saviour.
The law of righteousness only got removed from those who are born again
Why will you not accept that? The obvious answer is you want some of the credit for attaining Heaven

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, then whos fault is it if man continues to sin? You will now have to say man won't you?
So despite what you say, in your heart you want some of the credit for obedience. In your heart you will think. I have done well. I have persisted in looking away from the flesh and to God.
Think about it Jason

We have to surrender to the Lord and cooperate with Him working in us. But Christ said we can do nothing without Him.

But surrendering to Jesus and doing His will (that He is working in us) is not bad, though.
Christ still will get the glory. For that is why the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus.

Anyways, how do you explain these verses in light of your belief?

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23)

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:6-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is where your confusion shows. On the one hand you accept all born again people have been supernaturally changed into people who desire obedience. The only Christians are born again Christians, there are none other. God WILL NOT cast anyone into hell who in their heart desires to obey him and accepts his son as their saviour.
The law of righteousness only got removed from those who are born again
Why will you not accept that? The obvious answer is you want some of the credit for attaining Heaven

And I reject your claims. I want zero credit. I prefer doing my works in secret before the Father. But then again, your belief cannot allow that, so you bear false witness against me on this point.


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[stuart lawrence]

We have to surrender to the Lord and cooperate with Him working in us. But Christ said we can do nothing without Him.

But surrendering to Jesus and doing His will is not bad, though.

For how do you explain these verses in light of your belief?

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23)

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:6-12).

I never said surrendering to God's will is a bad thing. I hope you are not accusing me of that. When you and I started debating, I told you, remove the law of righteousness and we would much agree. Of course you refused to do so. works of the law does not earn you salvation, that was bought and paid for by christ
You have been born again of the Holy Spirit if you are a Christian and there are no other Christians. As you admit the born again Christian has been supernaturally changed into someone who in their heart wants to obey God, such a person does not have to earn their way to Heaven

 

[stuart lawrence]

And I reject your claims. I want zero credit. I prefer doing my works in secret before the Father. But then again, your belief cannot allow that, so you bear false witness against me on this point.


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OK. If you attain Heaven, can you confirm ALL the glory must go to God, for there is nothing you have done, or can ever do of yourself to contribute to you attaining everlasting life