True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith being a fruit of the Spirit does not happen until after we have been saved by Jesus Christ because we do not have the Holy Spirit until after salvation.

So, each of us must exhibit faith in our own right that is not part of the fruit of the spirit.

I think what they are saying is that grace came before our faith did. Meaning, the grace of God was accomplished at the cross before we were born to exhibit any kind of faith yet; And the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe that Works plays a part in becoming saved, or just plays a part in staying saved?

Well, for one, just so that we are on the same page: The good works that appear in a true believer's life are not man directed works but they are God directed works or good deeds done by Christ thru them when they surrender their lives to Christ according to His Word. So the good done in their life is to boast of Christ and not themselves. For there is none good but God. Any or all good comes from Him and not me or some tradition of men made up in a church. Two, works are the natural result of having been saved or in being currently saved. If a person fights against Christ working in them to continue His good work (according to His Word), then they would be going backwards and not forwards with the Lord (and depending on what they did or did not do) they could forfeit (i.e. willing turn away from Christ) and forfeit their salvation. For Christ is the source of a person's eternal life (1 John 5:12). But to be clear, the Scriptures state we can have an assurance of salvation right here and right now (1 John 5:13). But I believe God gives us grace or time for us to surrender to Christ so that He can do the good work in us; And because of this, I believe that is why we are saved by God's grace and not in any thing we do on our own power. For it is God who changes us and works in us.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This one passage topples your idea of eventual annihilation. it is clear who is being spoken of here: those who worshiped the beast and his image, and received the mark of his name . people, not angels.

I answered this verse in this thread here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104767-what-your-view-hell-lake-fire-loving.html

WHAT?

A believer has salvation from their sins through the blood of Jesus Christ.

An unbeliever DOES NOT have that.

An unbeliever does not have the forgiveness of sin because they lack the faith to be saved in the first place.

Dude, do you not see how great of an injustice you have done yourself by not understanding the basic tenants of the Bible.

Your branches sway with the wind, every time the wind blows.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we forgiven of future sin or sin that goes unconfessed and or sin that is not forsaken. In my reading of the Bible it is clear it treats sin the same for both the believer and the unbeliever. The difference with the believer is that they confess and forsake their sin so as to receive mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Yup. That's true. Non-denominational don't report to a higher denominational body. These are usually Bible-based churches from my experience, but you are right Open Heart and they are definately protestant.

How can I be Protestant if I reject it's history and I reject it's doctrines and I do not adhere to it's name in any way? Please educate yourself and read up on what makes a person a Protestant.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Ah see now you have hooked me into an interesting conversation. Even us Catholics believe it is faith alone at conversion. But then there is the question of whether "saved" refers ONLY to conversion or not.

Catholics use the word "saved" to refer to the whole journey, the Christian walk we lead that brings us ever closer to Him. Protestants usually use the word "sanctification" for this. It has only been through the past half century of formal dialogue that we have come to realize we are talking about the identical thing but just using different terms.

Thus, I have no problems switching back and forth between "saved" and "sanctified" when I'm posting in CF. I'm wondering if that is where you are at as well, that you use the word "saved" to refer to the journey????

I have talked with Catholics who believe they do not have an assurance of salvation.


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[klutedavid]

Hello OpenHeart.

You asked the following question.

Are you saying you believe that works plays a part in salvation?

Actually OpenHeart, I was discussing salvation by Grace alone.

Romans 5
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God
and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

To mention our feeble human works, in the same breath as 'The Gospel of Grace', would
undermine the entire teaching of the apostle Paul.

A Christian may need to commit themselves to works, but these works themselves have
nothing to do with the gift of salvation through Grace.

By the way OpenHeart, how do you define Grace?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So much has been said here. It's really not all that complicated. it makes no sense that it would be this complicated.

We were dead in Christ unable to save ourselves and even unable to reach out to god. But God in his mercy reached out to us and caused the blind to see. He changed us when we first believed but he did it. We heard the gospel and believed it. But he caused us to believe through the hearing of the gospel. Once saved though it's not as if we can continue life without him. We can't. It's a growing process through prayer and reading the word as we grow each day. We are saved, we are being saved, and ultimately are saved when we pass from this life to the next. We are still sinners but we are growing in him each day while walking this earth. He will never leave or forsake us. Daily I walk with him. But we war against the flesh daily too. If we sin he is Faithful and just to forgive our sin.

Yes, we do not save ourselves. But we can choose to accept Christ and we can choose to walk away from Him. God does not keep us against our free will to be saved.

Let me ask you a question. Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Believers or unbelievers? If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, then how would it do them any good to forgive if they have not even accepted Christ yet? So we can conclude that Jesus was speaking to believers in Matthew 6:15. This is important to understand because Jesus said if we do not forgive then we will not be forgiven to ..... BELIEVERS. Meaning, Jesus believed believers could be unforgiven.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Hello OpenHeart.

You asked the following question.

Actually OpenHeart, I was discussing salvation by Grace alone.

Romans 5
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God
and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

To mention our feeble human works, in the same breath as 'The Gospel of Grace', would
undermine the entire teaching of the apostle Paul.

A Christian may need to commit themselves to works, but these works themselves have
nothing to do with the gift of salvation through Grace.

By the way OpenHeart, how do you define Grace?

God's grace helps to wipe the past slate clean. We are then called to live holy and righteous before God. Not by our own power but by the power of Christ living within us. For Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not only at Calvary) but in our life, too (See 1 John 3:8). God's grace is not there for us to continue in sin. God's grace is to help us to be free so that we will never sin again.


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[Meowzltov]

Faith being a fruit of the Spirit does not happen until after we have been saved by Jesus Christ because we do not have the Holy Spirit until after salvation.

So, each of us must exhibit faith in our own right that is not part of the fruit of the spirit.

Are you a calvinist?

 

[Meowzltov]

Well, for one, just so that we are on the same page: The good works that appear in a true believer's life are not man directed works but they are God directed works or good deeds done by Christ thru them when they surrender their lives to Christ according to His Word. So the good done in their life is to boast of Christ and not themselves. For there is none good but God. Any or all good comes from Him and not me or some tradition of men made up in a church. Two, works are the natural result of having been saved or in being currently saved. If a person fights against Christ working in them to continue His good work (according to His Word), then they would be going backwards and not forwards with the Lord (and depending on what they did or did not do) they could forfeit (i.e. willing turn away from Christ) and forfeit their salvation. For Christ is the source of a person's eternal life (1 John 5:12). But to be clear, the Scriptures state we can have an assurance of salvation right here and right now (1 John 5:13). But I believe God gives us grace or time for us to surrender to Christ so that He can do the good work in us; And because of this, I believe that is why we are saved by God's grace and not in any thing we do on our own power. For it is God who changes us and works in us.


....

That's a lot of nice talk, none of which answers the question. Do good works help get us saved? Yes or no

 

[Meowzltov]

I have talked with Catholics who believe they do not have an assurance of salvation.

All of us Catholics believe we can lose our salvation. There is a sin which is unto death.

Did you want to answer my question? Follow the arrows back.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Jason.

Thanks for this reply of yours.

God's grace helps to wipe the past slate clean.

Only helps to wipe the slate clean Jason?

Jason your undermining the profound work of the Christ.

The scripture paints a more precise picture of how clean a slate,
that we have been given by Christ.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond
reproach.

You are already perfectly holy and blameless in Christ.

That is the free gift given to us, we have the righteousness of Christ Himself!

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived
from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness
which comes from God on the basis of faith.

A perfectly clean slate (righteousness), we have the slate of Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

I answered this verse in this thread here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104767-what-your-view-hell-lake-fire-loving.html

Nice deflection, but after reading your post over there, it seems that you want to unwind what Scripture says, and rewind it more to your liking, which is a horrible way ti interpret the Word of God. It is clear that you believe in a temporary Hell, denying what Scripture says, that it is eternal. Sorry, but words mean things, and I choose to let the scriptures tell me what to believe, rather than twist and distort them into a view more to my liking.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we forgiven of future sin or sin that goes unconfessed and or sin that is not forsaken. In my reading of the Bible it is clear it treats sin the same for both the believer and the unbeliever. The difference with the believer is that they confess and forsake their sin so as to receive mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).
...

When Jesus died on the cross, ALL of our sins were future, because we were not alive then. Jesus died for sins not yet committed, so that they could be forgiven after they were committed, once we were born again, and joined to Him in spirit. Your view allows for no Grace, you believe that if we commit a sin, at that point we have lost our salvation, and unless we repent, we are back where we were before we believed. Scripture does not support that. .

 

[Light of the East]

Hello Jason.

Thanks for this reply of yours.

Only helps to wipe the slate clean Jason?

Jason your undermining the profound work of the Christ.

The scripture paints a more precise picture of how clean a slate,
that we have been given by Christ.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond
reproach.

You are already perfectly holy and blameless in Christ.

That is the free gift given to us, we have the righteousness of Christ Himself!

You are reading into the verse that which you wish to see. To present you holy and blameless does not mean that you are holy and blameless now. It means that you have been placed on a journey to holiness and blamelessness. You finish that journey if and when you get to heaven. You can always walk away from Christ. That is the meaning of having a free-will in the relationship.

 

[Light of the East]

That's a lot of nice talk, none of which answers the question. Do good works help get us saved? Yes or no

No. And as a Catholic, you need to stop referring to salvation in this manner. It is confusing and totally wrong.

Salvation is the act of God saving a soul from being a child of wrath, a son of Adam. It is being taken from the world and put into Christ. We are baptized into Christ and that is utterly and completely free of any work at all. In fact, the baptism of a child is he perfect expression of the fact that salvation is by grace alone.

But eternal life is not the same as salvation. Eternal life is described in the Sacred Scriptures as "the inheritance" and it is described as being "inherited." ("Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life.") The Bible uses many analogies to describe the faith. One of then is the family. An inheritance is something different than being born. Salvation is like being born into a family. It is done once and the child has nothing to do with it. The inheritance, however, the child has a lot to do with it. If a child does things that bring dishonor upon the family, he will be disinherited.

This analogy applies to the family of God. We do nothing (works) to receive salvation, but our works are how we honor God and obtain the inheritance. That is why in four places in the NT, it speaks of our works being that which gives us eternal life. (John 5:28-29; Romans 2: 5-10; Rev. 20: 12-13; Matthew 25: 31-46).

Works necessary for salvation? Absolutely not!


Works necessary for eternal life? The Bible says they are.

 

[stuart lawrence]

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the conduit through which grace comes

 

[Light of the East]

Uh no. I am not Protestant. Most Protestant churches (not all) believe in Once Saved Always Saved. I also do not associate with other beliefs associated with Protestant churches, as well. For example: I do not believe the Lake of Fire is eternal punishment for the wicked. I believe the wicked will be destroyed at some point in the Lake of Fire. I do not attend Protestant churches nor do I seek to get my understanding from Scripture from Protestants. I am merely a Christian that believes in the Word of God.....

If you believe in the Word of God, then why are you not Catholic? Jesus established one Church, not thousands, and He put that Church under the authority of St. Peter. By the start of the second century, that Church was starting to be referred to as "katholicos," which means universal. It was so described because wherever you went in the world, the worship and beliefs were always the same.

The fact is that you don't belong to the Church because there is something in the teaching of the Church which you protest against, and your protest takes the form of not joining the Church.

Ipso facto, you are a Protestant because you have a point of contention (or protest) against something in the Church. If you didn't, you would be Catholic.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hello Jason.

Thanks for this reply of yours.

Only helps to wipe the slate clean Jason?

Jason your undermining the profound work of the Christ.

The scripture paints a more precise picture of how clean a slate,
that we have been given by Christ.

Colossians 1:22
Yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death,
in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond
reproach.

You are already perfectly holy and blameless in Christ.

That is the free gift given to us, we have the righteousness of Christ Himself!

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived
from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness
which comes from God on the basis of faith.

A perfectly clean slate (righteousness), we have the slate of Christ.

Thank you for your comment. It is wonderful to read of biblical grace in this thread. When Paul states the christian is not under law nowhere does he state that refers to only part of the law. To believe such a thing is an invention of the natural mind, not a mind led of the Holy Spirit

 

[stuart lawrence]

If you believe in the Word of God, then why are you not Catholic? Jesus established one Church, not thousands, and He put that Church under the authority of St. Peter. By the start of the second century, that Church was starting to be referred to as "katholicos," which means universal. It was so described because wherever you went in the world, the worship and beliefs were always the same.

The fact is that you don't belong to the Church because there is something in the teaching of the Church which you protest against, and your protest takes the form of not joining the Church.

Ipso facto, you are a Protestant because you have a point of contention (or protest) against something in the Church. If you didn't, you would be Catholic.

But the true church is the church that believes what is written in the NT of the Gospel message. You are right, Jesus established one church. But that church is defined by believing the message of scripture, not by right of passage through an institution.
I don't mean to be contentious by what I have written, but all that matters is the true message and those who believe it are the true church, regardless of denomination

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. And as a Catholic, you need to stop referring to salvation in this manner. It is confusing and totally wrong.

Salvation is the act of God saving a soul from being a child of wrath, a son of Adam. It is being taken from the world and put into Christ. We are baptized into Christ and that is utterly and completely free of any work at all. In fact, the baptism of a child is he perfect expression of the fact that salvation is by grace alone.

But eternal life is not the same as salvation. Eternal life is described in the Sacred Scriptures as "the inheritance" and it is described as being "inherited." ("Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life.") The Bible uses many analogies to describe the faith. One of then is the family. An inheritance is something different than being born. Salvation is like being born into a family. It is done once and the child has nothing to do with it. The inheritance, however, the child has a lot to do with it. If a child does things that bring dishonor upon the family, he will be disinherited.

This analogy applies to the family of God. We do nothing (works) to receive salvation, but our works are how we honor God and obtain the inheritance. That is why in four places in the NT, it speaks of our works being that which gives us eternal life. (John 5:28-29; Romans 2: 5-10; Rev. 20: 12-13; Matthew 25: 31-46).

Works necessary for salvation? Absolutely not!


Works necessary for eternal life? The Bible says they are.

Saved by grace kept by works?
It may interest you to know a woman once told ne the two denominations that find it hardest to accept the grace of the bible are Catholics and pentecostals. That is an amazing statement isn't it, as doctrinally they are the two denominations furthest apart.
Paul tells us the christian has a righteousness before God of faith, from first to last, in other words the whole of your christian life(rom1:17) it doesn't change from faith to works once you are saved