True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

No. And as a Catholic, you need to stop referring to salvation in this manner. It is confusing and totally wrong.

Salvation is the act of God saving a soul from being a child of wrath, a son of Adam. It is being taken from the world and put into Christ. We are baptized into Christ and that is utterly and completely free of any work at all. In fact, the baptism of a child is he perfect expression of the fact that salvation is by grace alone.

But eternal life is not the same as salvation. Eternal life is described in the Sacred Scriptures as "the inheritance" and it is described as being "inherited." ("Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life.") The Bible uses many analogies to describe the faith. One of then is the family. An inheritance is something different than being born. Salvation is like being born into a family. It is done once and the child has nothing to do with it. The inheritance, however, the child has a lot to do with it. If a child does things that bring dishonor upon the family, he will be disinherited.

This analogy applies to the family of God. We do nothing (works) to receive salvation, but our works are how we honor God and obtain the inheritance. That is why in four places in the NT, it speaks of our works being that which gives us eternal life. (John 5:28-29; Romans 2: 5-10; Rev. 20: 12-13; Matthew 25: 31-46).

Works necessary for salvation? Absolutely not!


Works necessary for eternal life? The Bible says they are.

BTW
How many works must one do to be sure of inheriting eternal life? Can you put a figure on it? Only if you cant how can you ever know if you have done enough? How can a christian then have any peace or assurance in this life of eternal security in the hereafter?

 

[Meowzltov]

No. And as a Catholic, you need to stop referring to salvation in this manner. It is confusing and totally wrong...
Works necessary for salvation? Absolutely not!

The Catholic church, unlike most protestant churches, considers salvation to be the whole journey, not just the moment of initial salvation. Obedience and good works are very much a part of that journey of salvation. That is why if we sin, we can lose our salvation.

It's not a good idea for one Catholic to chide another Catholic on their catholicism. If you think I am poorly catechized, don't you think it is best addressed in a PM than splayed all over the forum? Otherwise, simply address my points.

 

[Meowzltov]

It may interest you to know a woman once told ne the two denominations that find it hardest to accept the grace of the bible are Catholics and pentecostals.

Catholics fully accept that we are saved by Grace. Just not a cheap Grace.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Catholics fully accept that we are saved by Grace. Just not a cheap Grace.

Pentecostals would say exactly the same thing

 

[stuart lawrence]

Catholics fully accept that we are saved by Grace. Just not a cheap Grace.

Can I ask you? According to official doctrine of the catholic church. What core doctrine does the new covenant hinge on? What is the core foundation of the new covenant on which the christian faith stands

 

[Meowzltov]

Pentecostals would say exactly the same thing

I find that most protestants, including Pentecostals, talk out of both sides of their mouths. Out of one side they say that we are not saved by works. Out of the other side they say we should be obedient and do good. I just write it off to the confusion of the Reformation. As with anyone, Catholic or Protestant, I look to their works to see what kind of faith they have.

 

[Meowzltov]

Can I ask you? According to official doctrine of the catholic church. What core doctrine does the new covenant hinge on? What is the core foundation of the new covenant on which the christian faith stands

Read the Nicene Creed. That is the core of our Faith.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Read the Nicene Creed. That is the core of our Faith.

Does it cover the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that tine says the lord:
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds
I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

 

[stuart lawrence]

I find that most protestants, including Pentecostals, talk out of both sides of their mouths. Out of one side they say that we are not saved by works. Out of the other side they say we should be obedient and do good. I just write it off to the confusion of the Reformation. As with anyone, Catholic or Protestant, I look to their works to see what kind of faith they have.

I agree with you. Most protestants say we are saved by faith not works but........

 

[Meowzltov]

Does it cover the following:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that tine says the lord:
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds
I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

There are so many many things in the Bible that are part of the gospel. But if you tried to include them all, you would end up with the entire Bible again. The Nicene Creed is the core, but it is not the only thing that is important. What you wrote is not part of the Nicene Creed, but we accept the NT (indeed our bishops were the ones that canonized the NT) so we certainly do accept this.

 

[Meowzltov]

I agree with you. Most protestants say we are saved by faith not works but........

LOL That's allll I'm saying, is that they SAY it. I'm not saying they live it or that they don't contradict themselves. It's a fun world, ain't it

 

[stuart lawrence]

There are so many many things in the Bible that are part of the gospel. But if you tried to include them all, you would end up with the entire Bible again. The Nicene Creed is the core, but it is not the only thing that is important. What you wrote is not part of the Nicene Creed, but we accept the NT (indeed our bishops were the ones that canonized the NT) so we certainly do accept this.

In my view, what I quoted is the core of the new covenant on which the christian faith stands
If God had written his laws on the mind of a convert and placed them on their hearts they have been supernaturally changed into someone who in their mind instinctively knows how God wants them to live and in their heart they want to obey.
In view of this, is faith in Christ alone not enough righteousness for a person to attain heaven?
If this change had not taken place in an individual, if they in their heart did not want to obey that would be different. But they have been born again if you like. They have been changed from a person who only seeks to please themselves into a person who in their heart wants to obey God.
Surely if someone in their heart wants to obey God, God will never cast them aside. They are secure with him. Their sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more
This would not be the case for those who have not been born again

 

[Meowzltov]

Surely if someone in their heart wants to obey God, God will never cast them aside.

I don't disagree. But that is not novel to the New Covenant. The Old covenant contained this too. That is why , although important, it is not core.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't disagree. But that is not novel to the New Covenant. The Old covenant contained this too. That is why , although important, it is not core.

No one was born again under the old covenant. The law was not written on their mind and placed on their heart. It was an external law written on tablets of stone. Under the new covenant the law got transferred from an external law written on stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

If you read the verses prior to 16&17 of Hebrews 10 it is clear the verses I quoted directly relate to Jesus death at Calvary/the new covenant:

First he said, ‘Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them’– though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, ‘Here I am, I have come to do your will.’ He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 ‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’c]'>[c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Under the old covenant Moses told the people to circumcise their hearts(Deut 10:16) Under the new covenant God will circumcise the heart(Deut 30:6) by the Holy Spirit(Rom 2:29

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't disagree. But that is not novel to the New Covenant. The Old covenant contained this too. That is why , although important, it is not core.

In Jeremiah 31, Jeremiah prophecies:

‘The days are coming(they were not their yet),’ declares the Lord,
‘when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod]'>[d] them,’e]'>[e]
declares the Lord.
33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts
Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[JLB777]

When those good old Bereans got out their Bibles and searched them, guess what they were searching? The law and the prophets.

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable...

Whats your point?

Until has come, and the law of Moses has been abolished in His flesh.

The law and prophets were until John, since then the kingdom of God is preached.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't disagree. But that is not novel to the New Covenant. The Old covenant contained this too. That is why , although important, it is not core.

It is true that if people loved God in the OT they were accepted by faith. However, having the law placed within you is specific to the new covenant. If you think about it, something dramatic had to happen, for the Christian has a righteousness before God apart from the law. God couldn't leave it at that could he, or the Christian would have a licence to sin. So he put the law on our hearts, which means in our hearts we want to obey God.
Now if you in your heart want to obey God, you don't need a law of righteousness in place to encourage you to obey/not have a licence to sin do you? For anyone who in their heart wants to obey God, cannot at the same time happily sin as much as they want if they know a law of righteousness has been removed from them, it isn't possible

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


I'll take God's Word of mans word any day!~)

 

[stuart lawrence]

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


I'll take God's Word of mans word any day!~)

Amen
However, the get out of jail free card for those who want a righteousness of their own under the law is to say the above only refers to the mosaic law, not the Ten Commandments/moral law. I know it is ridiculous, but they will believe anything to cling to their law of righteousness

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Hey bro....nice to meet you ^^^

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If they truly understood that they wouldn't be clinging for hope any longer to their dear own righteousness. lol