True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[expos4ever]

Te
TeLL me what law Paul is referring to in rom7:7-11. The law of Moses or the moral law?

The Law of Moses.

I suggest this is not a difficult conclusion to draw if, repeat if, we let Paul speak for himself and not impose our own systems on him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If he isn't Jason opening a second account he must be a friend of his, possibly from the same house church

I wish his second account would answer the questions about justification and sanctification.

I've never seen avoidance like this on one question. Even on CF.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I agree that Paul could perfectly obey the Law of Moses, but that does not make my view incorrect. Paul is saying: Yes I can follow the Law of Moses perfectly, but the Law of Moses still strengthens the grip of sin on me. I think you are assuming that perfect obedience to the Law of Moses means that you do not sin. You would need to make that case, and I do not think you can do it.

Paul (before conversion) obeyed the Law of Moses but still found himself struggling against sin and doing evil things. There is no inconsistency here so I suggest my position is indeed sound. To show me to be mistaken, you would need to show that perfect obedience to the Law of Moses would mean that a person never sins. And I very much doubt you will be able to do this.

You cannot perfectly obey the law and sin at the same time lol.
It was the moral law Paul couldn't obey as all should know(rom7:6-11) so when Paul speaks of being a slave to sin/ sin being his master he must be speaking of the moral law.
I'm sorry but i am not going to waste my time chatting if i am to be given imatude statements that cannot possibly have been thought through

 

[stuart lawrence]

The Law of Moses.

I suggest this is not a difficult conclusion to draw if, repeat if, we let Paul speak for himself and not impose our own systems on him.

So you think Paul is speaking of the law of Moses in rom 7:7-11 not the moral law. The commandment he spoke of in those verses was thou shalt not covet. I assume therefore you cannot believe that is a moral law
I would suggest you join a reputable church, and study under guidance of someone led of the holy spirit. Frankly this is the worst response I have ever had to a question in all my years of internet debating
Bye

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am waiting for Jason to answer the question.

Until he does, I'm not coming back because I have answered all his questions and he won't answer mine so I don't see any reason to proceed until he does.

Jason, man up and answer the question.

 

[expos4ever]

I wish his second account would answer the questions about justification and sanctification.

I've never seen avoidance like this on one question. Even on CF.

Ok, you asked for it:

I shamelessly concede that my concept of justification is based on the position of NT Wright. So I simply quote him. Yes, it's long a little complex, but I believe it reflects Paul's thinking:

1. The question of justification is a matter of covenant membership. The underlying question in (for instance) Gal. 3 and 4 is: Who are the true children of Abraham? Paul’s answer is that membership belongs to all who believe in the gospel of Jesus, whatever their racial or moral background.

2. The basis of this verdict is the representative death and resurrection of Jesus himself. In view of universal sin, God can only be in covenant with human beings if that sin is dealt with, and this has been achieved by God himself in the death of his Son (Rom. 3:24-26; 5:8-9). Jesus takes on himself the curse which would have prevented God’s promised blessing finding fulfilment (Gal. 3:10-14). The resurrection is God’s declaration that Jesus, and hence his people, are in the right before God (Rom. 4:24-25).

3. The verdict issued in the present on the basis of faith (Rom. 3:21-26) correctly anticipates the verdict to be issued in the final judgment on the basis of the total life (Rom. 2:1-16, on which see Cranfield, Romans, vol. 1, pp. 151-153). This future ‘verdict’ is in fact, seen from another angle, simply resurrection itself (Phil. 3:9-11). The logic of this ‘eschatological’ perspective is explained as follows: faith is itself the sign of God’s life-giving work, by his Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3), and what God has begun he will complete (Phil. 1:6).

4. Justification thus establishes the church as a new entity, the renewed Israel, now qualitatively distinct from Jew and Greek alike, transcending racial and social barriers (Gal. 3:28). The sharp edge of this point, for Paul, was the conviction not only that pagan converts to Christianity did not need to become Jews in order fully to belong to God’s people, but also that the attempt to do so was in itself a renunciation of the gospel, implying that Christ’s achievement was insufficient or even unnecessary (Gal. 2:21; 5:4—6). At the same time, Paul warns pagan converts against the opposite mistake, that of imagining Jews to be now cut off without hope — the mirror image of the characteristic Jewish mistake, and one which some post-Reformation theology has not always avoided (Rom. 11:13-24).

5. ‘Justification by faith’ is thus a shorthand for ‘justification by grace through faith’, and in Paul’s thought at least has nothing to do with a suspicious attitude towards good behaviour.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I

I think that he is just avoiding the justification and sanctification question by bringing up other topics.

I mean if he doesn't know, why not just say that? It's almost like lying avoiding the question like that.

Jason,

What does justification mean?

What does sanctification mean?

What's the difference between the two?

Maybe check your church web site, they may tell you what to think.

think it is pride that stops him admitting he doesn't know. It is a pity, he has the opportunity to learn and refuses. We should all be humble enough tolearn I others understand things we don't. I have learnt from others I chat to

 

[expos4ever]

You cannot perfectly obey the law and sin at the same time lol.

How do you know this? Please be specific. I can obey the law of my country perfectly and still do all sorts of terrible things. So how does perfect obedience to 613 "rules" make one sinless?

It was the moral law Paul couldn't obey as all should know(rom7:6-11) so when Paul speaks of being a slave to sin/ sin being his master he must be speaking of the moral law.
I'm sorry but i am not going to waste my time chatting if i am to be given imatude statements that cannot possibly have been thought through

No, it is the Law of Moses:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall notcovet."

This is a clear reference to one of the 10 commandments, part of, yes, the Law of Moses.

There are many other reasons to believe that the "law" Paul refers to in Romans 7 is the Law of Moses, and I am happy to get into that.'

And I can assure you, I have spent hundreds of hours on this very matter. So please do not dismiss me until you consider my arguments.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Good for you. He doesn't answer ei

I am waiting for Jason to answer the question.

Until he does, I'm not coming back because I have answered all his questions and he won't answer mine so I don't see any reason to proceed until he does.

Jason, man up and answer the question.

Good for you he doesn't answer either of our questions, just in desperation distorts what we write as he cannot answer
God bless

 

[ToBeLoved]

How do you know this? Please be specific. I can obey the law of my country perfectly and still do all sorts of terrible things. So how does perfect obedience to 613 "rules" make one sinless?


No, it is the Law of Moses:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall notcovet."

This is a clear reference to one of the 10 commandments, part of, yes, the Law of Moses.

There are many other reasons to believe that the "law" Paul refers to in Romans 7 is the Law of Moses, and I am happy to get into that.'

And I can assure you, I have spent hundreds of hours on this very matter. So please do not dismiss me until you consider my arguments.

Now, that would be another thread. I can see you starting a new thread so others can join in as this one is limited.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wish his second account would answer the questions about justification and sanctification.

I've never seen avoidance like this on one question. Even on CF.

It's not avoidance. It's called a lack of time because I am busy. Also, I already answered this before. But to answer it again, the word "Justification" at it's core essentially means being declared righteous. This happens during repentance of sin, and initial acceptance of Christ and believing that He died, was buried, was risen again so as to save us from our sins. It is a receiving of the free gift of Jesus Christ whereby a person is a born again (or changed) spiritually. We are also justified by faith. For by grace are ye saved by faith. But what does one's faith look like? James says we are justified by works and not by a mere belief alone. He says a faith that does not produce works is a dead kind of faith. James is talking about God directed works and not man directed works. Yes, it is true that we are also justified in the work of the cross and in Jesus, but we are also justified by our faith, too. A faith that believes in Jesus but a faith that also acts on the work Christ wants to do within us (According to His Word). For to not act upon what Jesus says is to make a Jesus that does not exist in the Bible.

Sanctification is the process of God working in you to make you holy and righteous (So as to conform to the image of the Son). We are sanctified by the working of the Spirit and we are sanctified by the Word of God (i.e. by obeying the Written Word). Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil in your life. So the Lord works in you to overcome sin in your life. If one does not want to cooperate with Jesus, then they are merely going back to their old life of sin (Which brings death). A person cannot refuse the Sanctification process because it is a natural by product of abiding with the Lord (Who is the source of a person's salvation).


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[stuart lawrence]

Lol every time you can't answer a question you say it is because of a lackof time. Then you spend much time chatting here and never answer the question!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol every time you can't answer a question you say it is because of a lackof time. Then you spend much time chatting here and never answer the question!

I honestly was busy. I was at work before and I was driving. Besides, there are many questions that have gone unanswered by you. Other questions I said before would require a rather lengthy reply. Yes, I have not forgot about your question about being born again and the word written on a person's heart. But I believe it is a topic for another thread that deserves more attention than just a quick fly by night answer to someone who is not going to even appreciate the answer (Let alone truly listen to it).


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[Bible Highlighter]

I
think it is pride that stops him admitting he doesn't know. It is a pity, he has the opportunity to learn and refuses. We should all be humble enough tolearn I others understand things we don't. I have learnt from others I chat to

And that is why you have refused to answer the questions I asked in regards to your personal morals that you keep?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I honestly was busy. I was at work before and I was driving. Besides, there are many questions that have gone unanswered by you. Other questions I said before would require a rather lengthy reply. Yes, I have not forgot about your question about being born again and the word written on a person's heart. But I believe it is a topic for another thread that deserves more attention than just a quick fly by night answer to someone who is not going to even appreciate the answer (Let alone truly listen to it).


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Oh I twice went very thoroughly through questions you asked me

 

[stuart lawrence]

And that is why you have refused to answer the questions I asked in regards to your personal morals that you keep?

The above is a ridiculous statement.jason, don't be so keen to show immaturity.
Maturity and humility and honesty would be admitting when you cannot answer questions

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Y
You've been breaking the moral law continuously in this thread. Crazy!

I keep asking you to show me where I am doing so, and yet you have yet to show me.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Hey man, never heard of the guy. I have no idea what he believes except that that when Paul refers to "law", he is referring to the Law of Moses. And that, I agree with.

For all I know, I will find myself in hand-to-hand exegetical combat with him.

My Statement of Faith:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-your-statement-of-faith.7903197/


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[Bible Highlighter]

Me thinks that wine was wine.

Where do you get this theology from?

So you never heard of unfermented wine?
Are you aware that the word "liquor" did not always refer to something alcoholic?

To put it to you another way, words change with the passage of time.

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[stuart lawrence]

I keep asking you to show me where I am doing so, and yet you have yet to show me.


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I've shown you many times, possibly you have a hard time distinguishing what the moral law is, as the new chap does who entered the cobversation