True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that Paul treats the written code - including the 10 commandments but also everything else - as "the Law" as in the "Law of Moses". I think unnecessary complication is added by trying to characterize each of the 613 as "moral", or "ceremonial", or whatever. I suggest there is zero evidence that Paul ever distinguished such categories in his treatment of the law - he treated "the law" as a singular concept.

Many times Paul speaks as the Law of Moses as being a part of the entire Old Covenant or as a package deal of all 613 Laws. For even certain moral laws are attached with death penalties (Unlike the moral laws under the New Covenant). But that does not mean Paul was not able to distinguish between which laws are to still be obeyed in the Old versus those that are not to be obeyed anymore. For example: In Romans 13:8-10, Paul endorses the moral part of the Old Law. However, Paul says elsewhere that if anyone seeks to be circumcised Christ shall not profit them at all (Galatians 5:2-3). Paul said Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. In 1 Corinthians 14:37, Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments. 1 John 3:4 says "sin" is the breaking of the Law (i.e. God's Commandment). John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John says in John 3:20 that if anyone does evil, they hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.

Jesus said if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).John says if we hate our brother, then we are a murderer, and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Matthew 6:15 was spoken to the believer and not the unbeliever.
This is important to understand because unbelievers cannot be forgiven by forgiving others. An unbeliever first needs to repent of their sins, accept Jesus into their heart, and believe Jesus died, was buried, and was risen again for their salvation first.


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[EmSw]

Moral Law: love your neighbor as yourself applied.

James calls it the royal law, or that which belongs to a king.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

 

[stuart lawrence]

Many times Paul speaks as the Law of Moses as being a part of the entire Old Covenant or as a package deal of all 613 Laws. For even certain moral laws are attached with death penalties (Unlike the moral laws under the New Covenant). But that does not mean Paul was not able to distinguish between which laws are to still be obeyed in the Old versus those that are not to be obeyed anymore. For example: In Romans 13:8-10, Paul endorses the moral part of the Old Law. However, Paul says elsewhere that if anyone seeks to be circumcised Christ shall not profit them at all (Galatians 5:2-3). Paul said Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (Colossians 2:14). Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. In 1 Corinthians 14:37, Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments. 1 John 3:4 says "sin" is the breaking of the Law (i.e. God's Commandment). John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John says in John 3:20 that if anyone does evil, they hate the light unless their deeds should be reproved.

Jesus said if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).John says if we hate our brother, then we are a murderer, and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Matthew 6:15 was spoken to the believer and not the unbeliever.
This is important to understand because unbelievers cannot be forgiven by forgiving others. An unbeliever first needs to repent of their sins, accept Jesus into their heart, and believe Jesus died, was buried, and was risen again for their salvation first.


....

Expos4ever wishes to join this debate and agree mostly with what you write. However, he would firstly have to change his view concerning which law the christian is not under unto righteousness. For his current view and yours are unbridgeable
It will be interesting to see if he will change his view, attempt a fudge(which is not possible) or be left in much trouble theologically if he joins in anyway.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Expos4ever wishes to join this debate and agree mostly with what you write. However, he would firstly have to change his view concerning which law the christian is not under unto righteousness. For his current view and yours are unbridgeable
It will be interesting to see if he will change his view, attempt a fudge(which is not possible) or be left in much trouble theologically if he joins in anyway.

It's obvious Paul is not talking about all law whatsover in Romans and Galatians because nowhere does Jesus or His followers later state that the consequences to Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Galatians 5:19-21 have been abrogated. Paul says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses)? God forbid is Paul's answer. For Paul realizes there are moral laws in the Old that have continued into on into the New (Romans 13:8-10). For Paul says elswhere in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.

....

 

[stuart lawrence]

It's obvious Paul is not talking about all law whatsover in Romans and Galatians because nowhere does Jesus or His followers later state that the consequences to Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Galatians 5:19-21 have been abrogated. Paul says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses)? God forbid is Paul's answer. For Paul realizes there are moral laws in the Old that have continued into on into the New (Romans 13:8-10). For Paul says elswhere in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.

....

Well at the moment expos doesn't agree with you. Your problem is you don't understand Paul's message. Understand what Paul writes and you fully understand the Gospel message. But it cannot be understood by the academic mind of man. For that mind is baffled(ad you are) as to how removing the penalty of sin from the believer brings them to live a holier life. However, that is the core of Paul's message of grace. And only the holy spirit can bring enlightenment/conviction of the truth Paul wrote

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that Paul treats the written code - including the 10 commandments but also everything else - as "the Law" as in the "Law of Moses". I think unnecessary complication is added by trying to characterize each of the 613 as "moral", or "ceremonial", or whatever. I suggest there is zero evidence that Paul ever distinguished such categories in his treatment of the law - he treated "the law" as a singular concept.

I see the Bible breaking up the Old Law as being more as two and not three. The "ordinances that were against us" would be any law that was not the Royal Law of loving others (i.e. the moral law) (Romans 13:8-10). But that does not mean we cannot classify or group certain aspects of the Old Law into certain categories. A truth is still true even if it is not spoken about in the Bible.

Side Note:

But just so that there is no confusion, I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe we are saved by God's grace. If we sin, we do not go out and do more works to be saved (although fruits are a result of salvation), but we confess of our sins so as to be forgiven of our sin and so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). I believe we are saved by Jesus Christ both in Justification (By His work on the cross and believing in it and by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost), and that we are saved in Sanctification by the fact that God does the "good work" in our lives. In other words, I believe James reference to "works" is talking about God directed works in James 2:17-19; And I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about man directed works or works of the Law (with Ephesians 2:10 making a distinction in works as being "good works" being God directed works).

To put it to you another way, we are saved by Christ (God). He is the source of our eternal life. By abiding in Christ, good fruit and not bad fruit will be the result because it is Christ working in the believer to do of His good will and pleasure. It is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. For God alone is good. I am nothing. Christ is everything.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

It's obvious Paul is not talking about all law whatsover in Romans and Galatians because nowhere does Jesus or His followers later state that the consequences to Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Galatians 5:19-21 have been abrogated. Paul says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses)? God forbid is Paul's answer. For Paul realizes there are moral laws in the Old that have continued into on into the New (Romans 13:8-10). For Paul says elswhere in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.

....

Thus is why you stumble over the stumblingstone. In reality you seek justification by works of the law. You have gone the way of the majority. As you, a religious person attack what I write, so Paul was persecuted by religious people(mainly Jews) and the persecution always came down to the same thing. The religious wanteda law of righteousness as you do. For that belief is natural to man. It is rooted in his nature. You get what you earn, you get what you deserve. Jesus was persecuted by the religious forcsupposedly ignoring the law. One reason Steven was arrested and killed was for the same reason
And it is the same today, religious people attack those who believe no law of righteousness exists, and they claim people like me are ignoring the law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well at the moment expos doesn't agree with you. Your problem is you don't understand Paul's message. Understand what Paul writes and you fully understand the Gospel message. But it cannot be understood by the academic mind of man. For that mind is baffled(ad you are) as to how removing the penalty of sin from the believer brings them to live a holier life. However, that is the core of Paul's message of grace. And only the holy spirit can bring enlightenment/conviction of the truth Paul wrote

It doesn't really bother me if he agrees or not. What matters is what does the Word of God say. Jesus said to: "sin no more." Jesus said to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Bible in no way ever says you can abide in horrible unrepentant sin under any circumstance and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. The reference of the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians. It is not a reference to all law for Paul said clearly many times that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thus is why you stumble over the stumblingstone. In reality you seek justification by works of the law. You have gone the way of the majority. As you, a religious person attack what I write, so Paul was persecuted by religious people(mainly Jews) and the persecution always came down to the same thing. The religious wanteda law of righteousness as you do. For that belief is natural to man. It is rooted in his nature. You get what you earn, you get what you deserve. Jesus was persecuted by the religious forcsupposedly ignoring the law. One reason Steven was arrested and killed was for the same reason
And it is the same today, religious people attack those who believe no law of righteousness exists

Uh, no. Actually, more people believe in OSAS here in America. It is the popular church belief. It is the doctrine that tickles people's ears telling them what they want to hear so they do not have to worry about living holy lives before God. There is no fear of God before their eyes. They are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

It doesn't really bother me if he agrees or not. What matters is what does the Word of God say. Jesus said to: "sin no more." Jesus said to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Bible in no way ever says you can abide in horrible unrepentant sin under any circumstance and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. The reference of the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians. It is not a reference to all law for Paul said clearly many times that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


....

in 2000 years nothing has changed. You do realise don't you why Paul was attacked by religious people. Because they wanted a law of righteousness

 

[stuart lawrence]

Uh, no. Actually, more people believe in OSAS here in America. It is the popular church belief. It is the doctrine that tickles people's ears telling them what they want to hear so they do not have to worry about living holy lives before God. There is no fear of God before their eyes. They are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God.


...

Well once again I haven't mentioned osad. Buf I and christian counsellors know Tha many have ended up swanped by sin following your gospel message for they refused to become hard bosed and cynical

 

[stuart lawrence]

Uh, no. Actually, more people believe in OSAS here in America. It is the popular church belief. It is the doctrine that tickles people's ears telling them what they want to hear so they do not have to worry about living holy lives before God. There is no fear of God before their eyes. They are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God.


...

I will tell you how it works Jason. Nearly all christians with your views come from loving secure backgrounds, they then come from the more academically gifted and more affluent half of society. But this is the really important point. Because of their backgrounds they are far less likely, statistically to have a problem with alcohol, affairs , bad language, or smoking. The main taboos to you and those who think like you that must immediately cease the moment you get saved or you are in grave danger of the fires of hell
So your message sits far easier with one half of society but not the other
Now when you really think about it, it isn't a strong message full of power is it where the vast majority who follow it do so because of their social background

 

[ToBeLoved]

It doesn't really bother me if he agrees or not. What matters is what does the Word of God say. Jesus said to: "sin no more." Jesus said to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Bible in no way ever says you can abide in horrible unrepentant sin under any circumstance and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. The reference of the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses in the book of Romans and the book of Galatians. It is not a reference to all law for Paul said clearly many times that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


....

How you contridict yourself is in your motivation.

On one hand you say that it is not you, but Christ in you, but then you say that you can commit a sin that leads to spiritual death, which undoes everything Christ died to give you. Of course you do not see this in your own writing, but for us reading it it is as clear as day.

You say

"the Bible in no way ever says you can abide in horrible unrepentant sin under any circumstances and still be saved. It doesn't work like that".

Why don't you be honest with yourself. Why don't you see that if Christ can work awesomeness in you, He can work the same in others. But you do not believe that because if you did, then you would not say they were not saved.

You don't even see your own contradictions. But you are the one who 'wants to be' like Christ and your doing it, not Christ. I have no doubt. Your earning it.

When you can say that you are saved, but others are not because that is not how it works, that is arrogance. Clear. Simple. Arrogance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

in 2000 years nothing has changed. You do realise don't you why Paul was attacked by religious people. Because they wanted a law of righteousness

Jesus and his followers were not against righteousness. The Pharisees were hypocrites and did not abide in any kind of true righteous living.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus and his followers were not against righteousness. The Pharisees were hypocrites and did not abide in any kind of true righteous living.

Who is against righteousness? I'm giving you truth here, but know you will reject it.
The Pharisees would have been well educated people who dressed well. The attended all the religious meetings, tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin, kbsw the literal letter of the then scriptures inside out. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would not gave got drunk, used foul language, had extra marital affairs, nor smoked i imagine if smoking had then been invented. They insisted on righteous living/ the law of God being fully obeyed. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said. We would never gave acted as they did. And yet, Jesus said they did not even know his father

 

[stuart lawrence]

A minister preached a sermon on 1john 3:4&rom3:19-22. A man listened to that sermon 250 times so dumbfounded was he by what he heard

 

[stuart lawrence]

What you cannot see Jason, is this is not about a licence to sin as opposed to no licence to sin. It is not about whether a christian should live a holy life or not, it is about following the true Gospel message to see victory over sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How you contridict yourself is in your motivation.

On one hand you say that it is not you, but Christ in you, but then you say that you can commit a sin that leads to spiritual death, which undoes everything Christ died to give you. Of course you do not see this in your own writing, but for us reading it it is as clear as day.

You say

"the Bible in no way ever says you can abide in horrible unrepentant sin under any circumstances and still be saved. It doesn't work like that".

Why don't you be honest with yourself. Why don't you see that if Christ can work awesomeness in you, He can work the same in others. But you do not believe that because if you did, then you would not say they were not saved.

You don't even see your own contradictions. But you are the one who 'wants to be' like Christ and your doing it, not Christ. I have no doubt. Your earning it.

When you can say that you are saved, but others are not because that is not how it works, that is arrogance. Clear. Simple. Arrogance.

You are not fooling anyone by such false claims. Again, explain to me how Romans 11:21-22 does not plainly say that we are to continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed that he may not spare thee also.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin
If I said to you. If you think of a pink rabbit God will cast you into hell , what is the first thought that would come into your head if you believe me? Therefore, if I said to you. If you covet God will cast you into hell , what is the first thought that would come into your mind if you believed me? Hence:
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Who is against righteousness? I'm giving you truth here, but know you will reject it.
The Pharisees would have been well educated people who dressed well. The attended all the religious meetings, tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin, kbsw the literal letter of the then scriptures inside out. They did good deeds that everyone could see. They would not gave got drunk, used foul language, had extra marital affairs, nor smoked i imagine if smoking had then been invented. They insisted on righteous living/ the law of God being fully obeyed. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said. We would never gave acted as they did. And yet, Jesus said they did not even know his father

They appeared outwardly religious before men but they did not behave righteously before God according to His Word. That is why they were hypocrites. They endorsed God’s Word to others, but they did not obey it.