True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

I wonder if you are not getting a bit desperate Jason due to not being able to respond to the questions put to you.
So how do you deflect from that? With the above I guess.

Let me repeat yet again. It is a two part covenant. You are born again into someone who in your heart wants to obey God, and because you do, you are not under a law of righteousness before God. That is the core of the christian faith

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

You only get the second part because the first part has taken place

Hebrews is talking about past sins being remembered no more and not present or future sin that goes unconfessed.

Also, when you read Hebrews 10:16-17, you also have to read Hebrews 10:26 that says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). Hebrews 10:38 also says the just shall live by faith, but if any man draws back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Dear Jason

Let us address the three core points of disagreement, which are:


1)You believe the Christian only has a righteousness before God from the mosaic law


2)You believe if that is not so the Christian has a licence to sin


3)You believe in sinless perfectionism


Point one:


I can address scripture specific to this, you cannot for your belief is not written in the NT.


Jesus said:


The worlds sin is unbelief in me John 16:9 He did not say the worlds sin is unbelief in me alongside disobedience to the moral law. Therefore Jesus was not nor could he have been stating you have a righteousness before God of observing part of the law, for the law came as a whole.


Paul states:


For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,e]'>[e] just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’f]'>[f] Rom 1:17

A righteousness solely by faith, not also by observing part of the law, and that righteousness is from first to last, the whole of your Christian life

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

Rom 3:20&21


In verse 20 Paul could not have been speaking solely in relation to the mosaic law, for he could perfectly keep it and therefore be righteous in God’s sight concerning it. Therefore in the following verse he cannot possibly of only been speaking of the mosaic law. He is speaking of the whole law, for he does not differentiate between different parts of it


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth Rom 10:4


Paul is being consistent, no differential between the mosaic law and Ten Commandments. If there was one concerning this subject, Paul would have to be misleading people by not plainly stating that. Do you believe he did mislead people?

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain Gal 2:21


Once again, no differential between the mosaic law and Ten Commandments.


not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith ina]'>[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phil3:9


Paul plainly states he DOES NOT have a righteousness that comes from the law. That is an incorrect statement if he is only speaking of the Mosaic law, for he could be righteous before God under it alone


You cannot produce one verse of scripture from the entire NT to back up your belief, it is not there. Whenever Paul speaks of no righteousness according to the law, he states ‘the law’, not part of it.


You stated in Gal 3:10&11 Paul is only referring to the Mosaic law. Please now tell me. Why would Paul be cursed by obeying a law unto righteousness he could faultlessly obey? I am going to keep putting this up until you respond to it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Point 2


You believe a licence to sin is being preached if a person is not under a law of righteousness concerning the ten(or nine) commandments/the moral law. Well you would be right if the new covenant only hinged on one core fact. Jason, there is no new covenant that only hinges on Christ's death at calvary, such a covenant does not exist! The new covenant hinges on two-not one core facts:


The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c]'>[c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:15-18


What does the emboldened mean? I like the way the living bible states it:

I will write my laws into their minds so that they will always know my will, and I will put my laws in their hearts so that they will want to obey them.

Now, if you want to obey God in your heart, is it possible to seek to disobey him in your heart if you are not under a law of righteousness concerning the ten(or nine) commandments? No! it is not possible, for those laws are in your heart, meaning you in your heart want to obey them. The licence to sin is removed!

You believe, only because the Christian is under a law of righteousness concerning the moral law will this encourage them to obey it. Where is loving God in that belief? In other words, if the penalty of sin is removed, for you that is an excuse to sin as much as you want. That is not loving God my friend with such an attitude, therefore the greatest commandment is not being followed.


It is a fact Christ died to give us a righteousness apart from the whole law, but because very few ministers will actually preach the TWO core terms of the new covenant and explain them to people, most believe as you do. True grace is a licence to sin.

The very opposite is true. Paul states:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14


Again, Paul cannot possible be speaking of the mosaic law alone when he makes this statement for as a Pharisee when he lived under the law he could faultlessly obey the Mosaic law.

Paul makes abundantly clear, when the knowledge of the moral law came to him, he became a worse sinner, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him, for he was living under a law of righteousness concerning it. Therefore:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us,so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6

Once again, Paul cannot solely have been speaking of the mosaic law for he could faultleslly keep it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Point three

Sinless perfection:

I assume you must believe you are sinless, as you keep quoting scripture that you believe states we can reach sinless perfectionism while we walk this earth. Let us see if that view is correct:


If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.


So that answers your insistence a person is expected to be perfect/sinless according to the law. As I said yesterday. John plainly tells us someone with your view does not have the truth in them. Therefore, you do not understand the truth of the covenant, or the justification/sanctification process.

And yet, you put all those words in my mouth yesterday, because I believe what John wrote. If you are consistent, you should use those same words concerning him!


So the Christian cannot be sinless on this earth. James states:


Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.


So to recap. The christian has no righteousness of obedience to the whole law. The Christian dies to a righteousness of obeying the law, for Christ is their one and only righteousness before God-full stop! But though the Christian dies to a law of righteousness, they do not die to in their hearts wanting to obey the moral law, for that law has been written on their mind and placed on their heart by the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion-they have in this sense been born again. Therefore the licence to sin has been removed. Jesus told Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again. Being born again supernaturally changes you into someone who in your heart wants to obey the law God desires you to keep. The reason ye must be born again under the new covenant is that if you were not you would have a licence to sin as Christ died for your sins at calvary. Therefore, the fact the penalty of sin has been withdrawn from the truly born again Christian, DOES NOT result in them viewing this truth as a licence to sin, but rather to get down on their knees, and with a truly grateful heart praise God for what he has done for them in Christ. The law that is in their inner most parts cannot condemn them,

for Christ is their righteousness, not their efforts to obey the law. In that knowledge sin shall not be your master/you will obey (Rom 3:31, &Rom 6:14)


But the logical mind of man cannot comprehend such a covenant, only the Holy Spirit can convict a person of the truth of it

 

[stuart lawrence]

......

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jason could you please respond to the following, I have put it up five times now, Thank you

As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. (Jasons words)

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith


Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6) And if Paul could faultlessly obey it, why did he state no one who relies on obeying this law is justified before God?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Jason

Let us address the three core points of disagreement, which are:

1)You believe the Christian only has a righteousness before God from the mosaic law

No, I believe the righteousness of God is imputed to the believer by Christ's death and resurrection when we receive His free gift of salvation (receive Him into our heart) and repent of our sins. From there, we continue to allow Christ to do His "good work" in our life as we continue to submit and or surrender to Him. When we allow Christ to work in us, we are conforming more and more to His image and His sacrifice or work at the cross continues to be applied to our lives (Glorifying the work of Christ on calvary and glorifying the work of Christ done personally in our lives). For I cannot obey and do nothing on my own. There is none good but God. It is only Christ Jesus who can do any good in my life. So I surrender to Him and call for Him to do the good works in my life. Therefore, there is no boasting and no looking to take the credit.

Seeing Christ (God) is Holy, He is going to naturally do those things that are Holy and good. So I will pray, read His Word, and love others both in words and in deeds. Yet not I, but Christ living within me will do these things thru me. That is what you fail to understand or refuse to see.

Also, I believe the Law of Moses is made up of 613 Commands. The Bible testifies to this and even the Jews believe this. I believe the ceremonial laws and judicial laws (and not God's eternal moral laws) are no longer in effect. Scriptures says he nailed to the cross those ordinaces (i.e. not all law whatsoever) that were against us (Colossians 2:14). God abrogated the death penalties to certain laws and he no longer requires us to observe the Saturday Sabbath (even though one can still observe it) and he no longer requires us to be circumcised like the Israelites (Among other ceremonial laws). I believe the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant Law is not a binding Covenant anymore as a whole or package. Yes, certain moral laws have been carried over into the New. But we do not look to the Old so as to allow the Lord to work in us so as to obey Him.

I believe the 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament alone are exclusively binding for man today. God calls all men to repentance so as to be a born again New Testament saint and to submit to Him so as to work in their lives so as to obey Him and His Word. Righteousness is done by Christ (God) working in the believer. RIghteousness of Christ's work at Calvary is applied to the believer as they stay in conformity to being conformed to the image of the Son.

In fact, Jacob taking on Esau's identity so as to obtain the firstborn blessing from his father Isaac is a parallel of how we as believers are to take on the the identity of the Son so as to obtain the firstborn blessing from God the Father. It is only if we conform to the image of the Son whereby God the Father will passover us. God is not condoning the sin of "lying" in this "type of Christ", but he is merely showing that Jacob was a "Type of Christ" loosely in the fact that Jesus who knew no sin was made to be sin for us.

Now, imagine you are Isaac feeling the furry arms of Jacob (trying to pass himself off as the firstborn son - Esau). This is what God the Father will metaphorically do in a way when the faithful believer stands before Him and shows that He has conformed to the image of His Son.

For we are to conform to the image of the Son (Romans 8:29). Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Peter 4:1). He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 John 2:6).

2)You believe if that is not so the Christian has a licence to sin

Yes. I think you believe that this is true, too. But that is not the reality of what your belief teaches (that you cannot see), though. I have already stated my reasons before on this point in my recent posts (So there is no reason to repeat them).

3)You believe in sinless perfectionism

Yes, I believe "Sinless Perfectionism" is not committing those sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, murder, hate, theft, idolatry, drunkenness, and adultery, etc. I believe God can empower the believer to stop sinning those serious or grievious sins. I believe the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in a believer's life (Which proves they have the Spirit in their life). I do not believe all sins lead unto spiritual death, though (See 1 John 5:16-18, and Revelation 21:8). For example: If a believer fails to obey in being baptized and yet they are doing many other great things for the LORD by His Spirit and then they die, they are not condemned because baptism is not a sin that leads unto spiritual death. Peter is clear that baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) in 1 Peter 3:21. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In 1 Thessalonians 5:17, we are told to pray without ceasing. Yet, the Bible makes no mention of being condemned if we fail to keep this Command in the New Testament. I believe Jesus automatically pays the price for any of those sins (or the breaking of God's Commands in the New Testament) that do not lead unto spiritual death.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(1 John 1:8)

Actually, you have things opposite and backwards. Anyone who says they have fellowship with Him and does not keep His Commandments is a liar (See 1 John 2:3-6). 1 John 1:6 says the same thing. He that says he has fellowship and walks in darkness is a liar and the truth is not in Him. So if you say you walk in darkness on occasion and yet have fellowship with Him, you are lying.

1 John 1:8 is written to the brethren warning them against false believers who thought they had no sin whatsoever on any level (1 John 2:26). So for these false beleivers, confessing sin was a pointless exercise. This is very similar to what many Antinomians believe today (and what they have told me many times). They believe that confession of sin is not necessary for them to be forgiven if they do sin. They say they are forgiven of their sin: Past, present, and future. They have no sin spiritually to worry about. They are saying they have no sin on a spiritual level and there is no need to confess so as to be forgiven of sin. Yet, what does 1 John 1:9 say? Let's go ahead and read it.

1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven. The real believer recognizes sin if it arises and deals with it appropriately.

But wait..... there's more!

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Again, walking in the light is in context to keeping His commandments. For the very next chapter (which I said before) says this in 1 John 2:3-6. So in order to be forgiven, one has to confess and forsake sin. How do we know you have to absolutely forsake sin as a part of repentance? How can we know for sure according to the Bible?

Well, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Now, if you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would see that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. One has to turn away completely from sin and evil. There is no.... "Hey, I can sin sometimes. Everybody does it." That is wrong and evil to even think that way. God does not want you to sin ever. For it only took one sin in the Garden by Adam for all of mankind to fall into sin and death.

The Bible tells us that you can cease or stop from sin.

Read 1 Peter 4:1. It says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Peter identifies false believers as not having ceased from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Jesus said if your eye is in darkness, then your whole body is in darkness. So there is no room for a little bit of sin to take place in your life. You can stop sinning now if you work with God and believe the Scriptures. But will you believe Him? Do you want to stop sinning and please God? That my friend is between you and God and if you choose to ignore His Word, you will have to give an answer to Him.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, if you don't believe the Scriptures I shown you (above), let me use a real world example to help you to relate to what I am trying to tell you. Why? Well, because Jesus used real world examples (i.e. parables). Alright, what you are basically saying is that it is okay to slip up into sin every now and then and that you will forever be a slave to your sin. In other words, when an alcoholic who is honestly struggling to stop in their addiction to alcohol, they are far better in doing the right thing versus say the alcoholic who could care less about stopping (or who thinks it is impossible to stop). So yes; Believers can indeed stop sinning those types of sins that lead unto death, such as hating, lying, lusting, and in getting drunk, etc. For it would be like telling an alcoholic that they will forever be engulfed in their addiction or that they can drink or get drunk every once and a while. But lets look at the different options side by side.

Option #1. A person is Alcohol free or Sober

Option #2. A person has slipped up on occasion in their honest struggle to stop on their road to recovery (From Alcoholism).

Option #3. A person who is Alcoholic believes they can not be an Alcoholic and yet still drink every once and a while on their road to recovery.

Option #4. A person who is Alcoholic believes they will forever be an alcoholic and yet their choice to not habitually drink makes them okay.​

The first two options are Biblical and the last two options are not. For the believer who thinks they can habitually sin and still be saved is essentially saying you are a slave to your sin. Yet, Romans 8 says we are free from the Law of sin and death. In other words, sin will not have rule or dominion in a believer's life because Jesus lives in their heart and life. For the Scriptures say that Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

For what did Jesus say to his disciples' after they said "Who then can be saved?" in Matthew 19?

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheldthem, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:24-26).​

Did you catch that? The disciples were shocked that a rich man could not enter into Heaven and they were thinking who then can be saved? Meaning, this sure is a tough road to salvation. Who can do it? Jesus response was with man this is impossible, but with God.... all things are possible. What does that mean?

Well, let's take a look again at Ezekiel 36:26-27.

It says,

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."​

Did you see ? Here in this passage it is saying God will give a person a new heart and a new spirit and then God will place His Spirit within them and CAUSE them to walk within His statutes (laws). So when a person repents of their sins for real and accepts Jesus, they are born again spiritually and they then have the power by the Spirit (working in them) to keep God's good ways (and or to stop sinning).


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, I believe the righteousness of God is imputed to the believer by Christ's death and resurrection when we receive His free gift of salvation (receive Him into our heart) and repent of our sins. From there, we continue to allow Christ to do His "good work" in our life as we continue to submit and or surrender to Him. When we allow Christ to work in us, we are conforming more and more to His image and His sacrifice or work at the cross continues to be applied to our lives (Glorifying the work of Christ on calvary and glorifying the work of Christ done personally in our lives). For I cannot obey and do nothing on my own. There is none good but God. It is only Christ Jesus who can do any good in my life. So I surrender to Him and call for Him to do the good works in my life. Therefore, there is no boasting and no looking to take the credit.

Seeing Christ (God) is Holy, He is going to naturally do those things that are Holy and good. So I will pray, read His Word, and love others both in words and in deeds. Yet not I, but Christ living within me will do these things thru me. That is what you fail to understand or refuse to see.

Also, I believe the Law of Moses is made up of 613 Commands. The Bible testifies to this and even the Jews believe this. I believe the ceremonial laws and judicial laws (and not God's eternal moral laws) are no longer in effect. Scriptures says he nailed to the cross those ordinaces (i.e. not all law whatsoever) that were against us (Colossians 2:14). God abrogated the death penalties to certain laws and he no longer requires us to observe the Saturday Sabbath (even though one can still observe it) and he no longer requires us to be circumcised like the Israelites (Among other ceremonial laws). I believe the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant Law is not a binding Covenant anymore as a whole or package. Yes, certain moral laws have been carried over into the New. But we do not look to the Old so as to allow the Lord to work in us so as to obey Him.

I believe the 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament alone are exclusively binding for man today. God calls all men to repentance so as to be a born again New Testament saint and to submit to Him so as to work in their lives so as to obey Him and His Word. Righteousness is done by Christ (God) working in the believer. RIghteousness of Christ's work at Calvary is applied to the believer as they stay in conformity to being conformed to the image of the Son.

In fact, Jacob taking on Esau's identity so as to obtain the firstborn blessing from his father Isaac is a parallel of how we as believers are to take on the the identity of the Son so as to obtain the firstborn blessing from God the Father. It is only if we conform to the image of the Son whereby God the Father will passover us. God is not condoning the sin of "lying" in this "type of Christ", but he is merely showing that Jacob was a "Type of Christ" loosely in the fact that Jesus who knew no sin was made to be sin for us.

Now, imagine you are Isaac feeling the furry arms of Jacob (trying to pass himself off as the firstborn son - Esau). This is what God the Father will metaphorically do in a way when the faithful believer stands before Him and shows that He has conformed to the image of His Son.

For we are to conform to the image of the Son (Romans 8:29). Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (1 Peter 4:1). He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 John 2:6).



Yes. I think you believe that this is true, too. But that is not the reality of what your belief teaches (that you cannot see), though. I have already stated my reasons before on this point in my recent posts (So there is no reason to repeat them).



Yes, I believe "Sinless Perfectionism" is not committing those sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, murder, hate, theft, idolatry, drunkenness, and adultery, etc. I believe God can empower the believer to stop sinning those serious or grievious sins. I believe the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in a believer's life (Which proves they have the Spirit in their life). I do not believe all sins lead unto spiritual death, though (See 1 John 5:16-18, and Revelation 21:8). For example: If a believer fails to obey in being baptized and yet they are doing many other great things for the LORD by His Spirit and then they die, they are not condemned because baptism is not a sin that leads unto spiritual death. Peter is clear that baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) in 1 Peter 3:21. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In 1 Thessalonians 5:17, we are told to pray without ceasing. Yet, the Bible makes no mention of being condemned if we fail to keep this Command in the New Testament. I believe Jesus automatically pays the price for any of those sins (or the breaking of God's Commands in the New Testament) that do not lead unto spiritual death.


...

So you now believe sinless perfection is not committing sins that lead to spiritual death, not all sin is that correct?
You have provided no scriptural support as to your view the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning the moral law. You will have noted I gave much scriptural support concerning my view
Do you know what all of these 1050 commands are btw? If you have notcrecited then all to memory how will you know if you break them?
John is quite clear in 1john 1:8 as you said to me, you can either accept the scripture as written or make it say what you want it to say

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason could you please respond to the following, I have put it up five times now, Thank you

As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. (Jasons words)

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith


Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6) And if Paul could faultlessly obey it, why did he state no one who relies on obeying this law is justified before God?

Paul was addressing the heresy of those trying to go back to the Law of Moses by way of circumcision. Again, we have already been over this. See verse 17 for the context (Galatians 3:17). For verse 17 and others are telling us that the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses. We are not under the Law of Moses. Paul was addressing THEIR problem of trying to be justified by the Old Law alone. Paul in no way said we can disobey the Commands of Jesus Christ or His own written Commands. Paul essentially says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I

Actually, you have things opposite and backwards. Anyone who says they have fellowship with Him and does not keep His Commandments is a liar (See 1 John 2:3-6). 1 John 1:6 says the same thing. He that says he has fellowship and walks in darkness is a liar and the truth is not in Him. So if you say you walk in darkness on occasion and yet have fellowship with Him, you are lying.

1 John 1:8 is written to the brethren warning them against false believers who thought they had no sin whatsoever on any level (1 John 2:26). So for these false beleivers, confessing sin was a pointless exercise. This is very similar to what many Antinomians believe today (and what they have told me many times). They believe that confession of sin is not necessary for them to be forgiven if they do sin. They say they are forgiven of their sin: Past, present, and future. They have no sin spiritually to worry about. They are saying they have no sin on a spiritual level and there is no need to confess so as to be forgiven of sin. Yet, what does 1 John 1:9 say? Let's go ahead and read it.

1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven. The real believer recognizes sin if it arises and deals with it appropriately.

But wait..... there's more!

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Again, walking in the light is in context to keeping His commandments. For the very next chapter (which I said before) says this in 1 John 2:3-6. So in order to be forgiven, one has to confess and forsake sin. How do we know you have to absolutely forsake sin as a part of repentance? How can we know for sure according to the Bible?

Well, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Now, if you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would see that the Ninevites had turned from their wicked ways as a part of their repentance. One has to turn away completely from sin and evil. There is no.... "Hey, I can sin sometimes. Everybody does it." That is wrong and evil to even think that way. God does not want you to sin ever. For it only took one sin in the Garden by Adam for all of mankind to fall into sin and death.

The Bible tells us that you can cease or stop from sin.

Read 1 Peter 4:1. It says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Peter identifies false believers as not having ceased from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Jesus said if your eye is in darkness, then your whole body is in darkness. So there is no room for a little bit of sin to take place in your life. You can stop sinning now if you work with God and believe the Scriptures. But will you believe Him? Do you want to stop sinning and please God? That my friend is between you and God and if you choose to ignore His Word, you will have to give an answer to Him.


...

have responded to this already. 1 john 1:8 is very clear in what it states . I repeat, as you said to me. Will you accept the scripture as written or make it say what you want it to say?

 

[stuart lawrence]

As

Well, if you don't believe the Scriptures I shown you (above), let me use a real world example to help you to relate to what I am trying to tell you. Why? Well, because Jesus used real world examples (i.e. parables). Alright, what you are basically saying is that it is okay to slip up into sin every now and then and that you will forever be a slave to your sin. In other words, when an alcoholic who is honestly struggling to stop in their addiction to alcohol, they are far better in doing the right thing versus say the alcoholic who could care less about stopping (or who thinks it is impossible to stop). So yes; Believers can indeed stop sinning those types of sins that lead unto death, such as hating, lying, lusting, and in getting drunk, etc. For it would be like telling an alcoholic that they will forever be engulfed in their addiction or that they can drink or get drunk every once and a while. But lets look at the different options side by side.

Option #1. A person is Alcohol free or Sober

Option #2. A person has slipped up on occasion in their honest struggle to stop on their road to recovery (From Alcoholism).

Option #3. A person who is Alcoholic believes they can not be an Alcoholic and yet still drink every once and a while on their road to recovery.

Option #4. A person who is Alcoholic believes they will forever be an alcoholic and yet their choice to not habitually drink makes them okay.​

The first two options are Biblical and the last two options are not. For the believer who thinks they can habitually sin and still be saved is essentially saying you are a slave to your sin. Yet, Romans 8 says we are free from the Law of sin and death. In other words, sin will not have rule or dominion in a believer's life because Jesus lives in their heart and life. For the Scriptures say that Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

For what did Jesus say to his disciples' after they said "Who then can be saved?" in Matthew 19?

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheldthem, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:24-26).​

Did you catch that? The disciples were shocked that a rich man could not enter into Heaven and they were thinking who then can be saved? Meaning, this sure is a tough road to salvation. Who can do it? Jesus response was with man this is impossible, but with God.... all things are possible. What does that mean?

Well, let's take a look again at Ezekiel 36:26-27.

It says,

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."​

Did you see ? Here in this passage it is saying God will give a person a new heart and a new spirit and then God will place His Spirit within them and CAUSE them to walk within His statutes (laws). So when a person repents of their sins for real and accepts Jesus, they are born again spiritually and they then have the power by the Spirit (working in them) to keep God's good ways (and or to stop sinning).


...

you again early on in this post put words in my mouth I had not said, I didn't then read the rest of it. I know why you do it, for you cannot repudiate what I am showing you according to scripture. So you react as many do when that happens

 

[mercy1061]

Dear Jason

Let us address the three core points of disagreement, which are:


1)You believe the Christian only has a righteousness before God from the mosaic law


2)You believe if that is not so the Christian has a licence to sin


3)You believe in sinless perfectionism


Point one:


I can address scripture specific to this, you cannot for your belief is not written in the NT.


Jesus said:


The worlds sin is unbelief in me John 16:9 He did not say the worlds sin is unbelief in me alongside disobedience to the moral law. Therefore Jesus was not nor could he have been stating you have a righteousness before God of observing part of the law, for the law came as a whole.


Paul states:


For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,e]'>[e] just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’f]'>[f] Rom 1:17

A righteousness solely by faith, not also by observing part of the law, and that righteousness is from first to last, the whole of your Christian life

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify

Let us read this verse very slowly, to increase our understanding. Make sure you read this verse a few times before responding.

But now A PART FROM THE LAW the righteousness of G-d has been made known TO WHICH THE LAW AND PROPHETS DO TESTIFY.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you now believe sinless perfection is not committing sins that lead to spiritual death, not all sin is that correct?

Being "perfect" is tied to one's right standing with God.

"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God." (Revelation 3:1-2).

You have provided no scriptural support as to your view the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning the moral law. You will have noted I gave much scriptural support concerning my view

I have several times. You just chose to ignore them. I am not so sure they are going to help you (by my repeating them here), unless you honestly want to see them again.

Do you know what all of these 1050 commands are btw? If you have notcrecited then all to memory how will you know if you break them?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html

John is quite clear in 1john 1:8 as you said to me, you can either accept the scripture as written or make it say what you want it to say

But you have to ignore 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 1:6-7 to make your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 true, though.


...




...

 

[stuart lawrence]

C

Paul was addressing the heresy of those trying to go back to the Law of Moses by way of circumcision. Again, we have already been over this. See verse 17 for the context (Galatians 3:17). For verse 17 and others are telling us that the word "law" is in reference to the Law of Moses. We are not under the Law of Moses. Paul was addressing THEIR problem of trying to be justified by the Old Law alone. Paul in no way said we can disobey the Commands of Jesus Christ or His own written Commands. Paul essentially says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.


...

Clearly this does not answer my question. You stated in gal 3:10&11 Paul was solely speaking of the mosaic law. Please tell me why if that is the case Paul would be cursed by trying to obey it to be righteous in Gods sight, for he said himself he could faultlessly obey that law.
So I repeat, why was Paul cursed and unable to be justified before God concerning a law he could faultlessly obey?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Y

Being "perfect" is tied to one's right standing with God.

"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God." (Revelation 3:1-2).



I have several times. You just chose to ignore them. I am not so sure they are going to help you (by my repeating them here), unless you honestly want to see them again.



http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html



But you have to ignore 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 1:6-7 to make your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 true, though.


...




...

YOu cannot provide one plain verse of scripture from the entire NT that states the christian has only been freed from a righteousness of observing the mosaic law. I know your reasoning here, but it is faulty, as proved by the amount of scripture your belief clearly contradicts
So there I no misunderstanding here, please tell me if you believe sinless perfection means a person does not sin, or they do not commit what you term sins Tha lead to death. I am sure you would want ne to understand which your view is.
Concerning 1john 1:8 it is not advisable to try to find other scripture to contradict it, it is after all very plainly written
I note you did not tell me I you have memorised those 1,050 commands, so I will assume you have not, which must lead you to an obvious problem!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let us read this verse very slowly, to increase our understanding. Make sure you read this verse a few times before responding.

But now A PART FROM THE LAW the righteousness of G-d has been made known TO WHICH THE LAW AND PROPHETS DO TESTIFY.

Romans 3 is the chapter that really hits a home run in letting us know that Paul is talking about the "Law" as being in reference to the "Law of Moses."

"What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Paul is saying we are not justified by the deeds of the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (Romans 3:28). We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. This faith not only involves a faith in the man Christ Jesus alone but it also includes having faith in everything He taught and did, too (Along with the teachings that come from His followers, as well).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Y
Ou cannot provide one plain verse of scripture from the entire NT that states the christian has only been freed from a righteousness of observing the mosaic law. I know your reasoning here, but it is faulty, as proved by the amount of scripture your belief clearly contradicts
So there I no misunderstanding here, please tell me if you believe sinless perfection means a person does not sin, or they do not commit what you term sins Tha lead to death. I am sure you would want ne to understand which your view is.
Concerning 1john 1:8 it is not advisable to try to find other scripture to contradict it, it is after all very plainly written
I note you did not tell me I you have nenotised those 1,050 commands, so I will assume you have not, which must lead you to an obvious problem!

Yet, you are not explaining 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 1:6-7, though. Hence, why your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is false.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Clearly this does not answer my question. You stated in gal 3:10&11 Paul was solely speaking of the mosaic law. Please tell me why if that is the case Paul would be cursed by trying to obey it to be righteous in Gods sight, for he said himself he could faultlessly obey that law.
So I repeat, why was Paul cursed and unable to be justified before God concerning a law he could faultlessly obey?

You must be reading a different Bible then me. Where in Galatians 3 does Paul say he could have faultlessly obeyed the Law of Moses without Jesus Christ?




...