True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

The bible does not state anyone can perfectly uphold the law which is what sinless perfection entails. Please read James 2:10, Gal3:10&11, Rom 4:14&15

Well, I already provided verses that say we can be perfect or holy in Post #269.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...tional-security.7914686/page-14#post-68805885

And Post #275.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...tional-security.7914686/page-14#post-68806109

As for James 2:10: Well, this verse is talking about breaking the Royal Law (or one of God's eternal moral laws). James is talking about being hypocritical in breaking such laws (Which is the point he is trying to make about showing favoritism when the body gathers to have fellowship). Paul says the same thing.

"Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written." (Romans 2:21-24).

For Paul is concerned with keeping the moral law.

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

Love fulfills the Law. The ceremonial and judicial law? No. The eternal moral law (Which was present even in the Old Testament Law of Moses). For loving my neighbor does not have anything to do with keeping the Sabbath. Paul is talking about the eternal moral law.

As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. Context is key. Verse 17 says that the law came 430 years after the Promise to Abraham.

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. " (Galatians 3:17).

"This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise" (Galatians 3:17) (New Living Translation).

As for Romans 4:14-15: Well, you have to keep reading.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:15-18).

So is one a servant or slave to righteousness if they are enslaved to sin?

I say thee nay.


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[Bible Highlighter]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

~ A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (James 1:8).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let me re-stress this last part, too.

HIS work. Not my work or some work by man.


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[stuart lawrence]

Yes, they were.(born again under the old covenant) Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again.



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Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

4 ‘How can someone be born when they are old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!’

5 Jesus answered, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, “You must be born again.” 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit John 3:3-8

So we see ye MUST be born again. So those born again become so because the holy Spirit has come and given them this new life. As you can hear the wind though you cannot tell where it comes from and where it is going, so it is with everyone born again of the spirit.
1) Under the Old covenant, you were born into it. Born a Jew you were immediately under the covenant. The holy spirit did not have to come to as Jesus stated in John 3. The fact you were a physical Israelite entitled you to be under it
2) In what way were the Israelites born again? Most of the time their hearts were hard, they did not want to obey God.
3) As you mentioned Deuteronomy 30:

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Clearly the above is speaking of after the Israelites have been exiled from the promised land, to a time in the future when God will return them to the land. It CANNOT THEREFORE HAVE BEEN SPEAKING CONCERNING THE OLD COVENANT. How were the Israelites hearts circumcised under that covenant? God told Moses they were a stiff necked people who would soon desert him once they reached the promised land!

No, being born again is when the Holy Spirit enters your life and writes the law on your mind and places it on your heart. Then you instinctively know how God wants you to live, and in your heart you want to obey. You have been supernaturally changed from someone who wants to live a life of sin into someone who in your heart wants to obey God, in this sense you have been born again. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus of the new covenant, under that covenant you must be born again, otherwise you have a licence to sin, for Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness

 

[stuart lawrence]

With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. Also, again, I am not stating that all sin is the same, either. There are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (See 1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are those sins that lead unto the Second Death or the Lake of Fire (See Revelation 21:8).


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You believe in sinless perfection Jason. I assume you believe therefore you have no sin in you. Once again John states:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John 1:8

Notice, the truth is not in those who claim to be without sin
As I previously told you, a very eminent Baptist minister in the UK stated 85% of Evangelicals did not understand the justification/sanctification process. I believe him, and I was brought up in such a church.

I really do not mean this unkindly, but you simply do not understand the covenant. Granted you have read the bible a lot. But I repeat yet again, the literal letter is not enough to know the truth, you have to understand the heart of the message that letter contains. The Pharisees of Jesus day prove this to be true. They knew the literal letter inside out, but they did not understand the message did they

 

[stuart lawrence]

To further illustrate the point. Sinless perfection is perfectly obeying God's laws. James states:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it James 2:10

But it is Paul who makes it very clear sinless perfection is out of reach(perfectly obeying the law)

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith Gal 3:10&11

Why are you under a curse if you rely on works of the law to be justified/righteous(striving to obey the law, striving not to sin) ? Because you cannot reach the pass mark to be righteous under the law, which is perfection, 100% perfect obedience(sinless perfection). As Paul goes on to say, you would have to do everything written in the book of the law, and no one can perfectly obey it all(be sinless) that is why you are under a curse if you rely on it.

Paul confirms this:

14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath Rom 4:14&15

Once again he tells us law brings wrath, why? Because you cannot attain the pass mark to be righteous before God under it, which is perfect obedience(sinless perfection) If you rely on the law (being sinless to you Jason) faith can mean nothing to you, therefore you are cut off from grace for grace comes through faith

 

[stuart lawrence]

As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses.

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith


Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6)
Come on Jason, it is ridiculous

As for Romans 4:14-15: Well, you have to keep reading.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:15-18).

So is one a servant or slave to righteousness if they are enslaved to sin?

I say thee nay.


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As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. (Jasons words)

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith


Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6)
Come on Jason, it is ridiculous

(Jasons comment)
''As for Romans 4:14-15: Well, you have to keep reading.

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:15-18).

So is one a servant or slave to righteousness if they are enslaved to sin?'''


Read on:

I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness

You are being led into holiness, you are not perfect in your flesh or you would already be perfectly holy, not being led into holiness, its called the sanctification process. Now how does one cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, is it instantaneous? Remember, Paul tells the romans they cross over from one state to another by following the form of teaching they have been given(Grace) So again, is this crossing over instantaneous?

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified(in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness) by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law(striving to obey the law/striving to defeat the sin) no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:15-18


Now that is as plain as day, it takes time to cross over from one state to the other, it is NOT instantaneous. And the crossing over is not by striving to defeat the sin(a work of the law) but faith in Christ.
Some sin the new convert can immediately cease, it may not have much of a hold over him, but Paul is referring to sins we are a slave to, for as you pointed out, we have to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness

 

[ToBeLoved]

But your salvation doesn't depend on Jesus, it depends on a righteousness of observing the law

What denomination are you that you would say that?

The entire New Testament is how we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[stuart lawrence]

What denomination are you that you would say that?

The entire New Testament is how we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't believe that, I wrote that to Jason. He believes he has a righteousness before God of observing the moral law, hence the reason I wrote it to him. I agree with you, our righteousness is faith in Chrtist

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe that, I wrote that to Jason. He believes he has a righteousness before God of observing the moral law, hence the reason I wrote it to him. I agree with you, our righteousness is faith in Chrtist

Again, your words, and not mine. You are essentially trying to say that because I believe I must breath oxygen that I cannot also believe in Jesus Christ by the righteousness of faith. Also, as I said before, I believe it is Christ that works in me. He helps me to obey. It is not of my own effort or struggle. Christ is God and is good and is going to lead me into paths of righteousness for His name's sake.


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[ToBeLoved]

I don't believe that, I wrote that to Jason. He believes he has a righteousness before God of observing the moral law, hence the reason I wrote it to him. I agree with you, our righteousness is faith in Chrtist

Ok. Good, glad to hear it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok. Good, glad to hear it.

But that's not what I believe, though. He is painting a picture of something that I do not believe. I believe Jesus Christ saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification.


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[stuart lawrence]

But that's not what I believe, though. He is painting a picture of something that I do not believe. I believe Jesus Christ saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification.


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Justification is the same as righteousness. You believe you have a justification/righteousness before God of obeying the Ten Commandments

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, your words, and not mine. You are essentially trying to say that because I believe I must breath oxygen that I cannot also believe in Jesus Christ by the righteousness of faith. Also, as I said before, I believe it is Christ that works in me. He helps me to obey. It is not of my own effort or struggle. Christ is God and is good and is going to lead me into paths of righteousness for His name's sake.


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Justification is the same as righteousness. You believe you have a justification/righteousness before God of obeying the Ten Commandments

 

[stuart lawrence]

But that's not what I believe, though. He is painting a picture of something that I do not believe. I believe Jesus Christ saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification.


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Jason
I hope you will respond to the point concerning your belief Paul is speaking of the mosaic law in Galatians 3:10&11
I asked you how Paul could be cursed by seeking a justification of obedience to those laws when he could faultlessly obey them. I hope you will respond

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Justification is the same as righteousness. You believe you have a justification/righteousness before God of obeying the Ten Commandments

And your stuck in a loop of believing something about me that is not true. Again, I said multiple times so far that I believe the 9 moral laws out of the 10 are in effect. I also believe there are other moral laws in the Old Covenant that have been repeated in the New Covenant, too. But none of the Ceremonial or Judicial Laws have been carried over into the New Testament. So the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding (even though one can still observe it).



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[stuart lawrence]

And your stuck in a loop of believing something about me that is not true. Again, I said multiple times so far that I believe the 9 moral laws out of the 10 are in effect. I also believe there are other moral laws in the Old Covenant that have been repeated in the New Covenant, too. But none of the Ceremonial or Judicial Laws have been carried over into the New Testament. So the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding (even though one can still observe it).



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Then take the fourth commandment out. You have continuously said you believe you have a righteousness/justification before God of observing the moral law/nine commandments

 

[stuart lawrence]

And your stuck in a loop of believing something about me that is not true. Again, I said multiple times so far that I believe the 9 moral laws out of the 10 are in effect. I also believe there are other moral laws in the Old Covenant that have been repeated in the New Covenant, too. But none of the Ceremonial or Judicial Laws have been carried over into the New Testament. So the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding (even though one can still observe it).



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As for Galatians 3:10-11: Again, this in reference to being justified alone by the Law of Moses. (Jasons words)

This is what Gal 3:10&11 states:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith


Now why would Paul be cursed trying to be justified according to the law of Moses when he could faultlessly obey it(Phil3:6)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Justification is the same as righteousness. You believe you have a justification/righteousness before God of obeying the Ten Commandments

Justification is declaring something or someone righteous. We are not only Justified by believing but by actions too. James says we are justified by works. Granted, this is not our work but the work of God done thru us (So we can't take the credit or boast). Justification would include calling out to God by way of prayer so as to repent of one's sins and accept Christ into one's heart. This involves believing Jesus died, was buried, and was risen 3 days later so as to be saved. Calling out to God by way of prayer to be saved is a work. Again, but it is a God directed work and not a man directed work.

Most people believe Jesus saves in Justification, but they do not believe He truly saves in Sanctification.




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