True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Yet, you are not explaining 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 1:6-7, though. Hence, why your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is false.


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Oh my interpretation is not false. It is written as plain as day. It is a verse where everyone I have met in the flesh accepts it as written. For no minister I know of holds the view you do. In truth I am concerned for you. A christian cannot sin in ignorance for they have been born again. Therefore if someone on the internet claims to be sinless alarm bells go off in my head.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You must be reading a different Bible then me. Where in Galatians 3 does Paul say he could have faultlessly obeyed the Law of Moses without Jesus Christ?




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You should read the bible more. He doesn't state it in Gal 3, he states it in phillipians 3:6:

As for zeal persecuting the church (obviously he is speaking of his time as a Pharisee) as for legalistic righteousness faultless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As
you again early on in this post put words in my mouth I had not said, I didn't then read the rest of it. I know why you do it, for you cannot repudiate what I am showing you according to scripture. So you react as many do when that happens

My apologies. I should have clarified that better. I was speaking also to those who do believe they can habitually sin and be saved (of which you did not claim). However, I lump their belief into what you believe because I do not see them as being all that different from what you believe because you still hold to the view that you can sin on occasion and still be saved or that you can die in unrepentant sin (like lying, adultery, unforgiveness, or hate, etc.) and still make into heaven.


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[stuart lawrence]

My apologies. I should have clarified that better. I was speaking also to those who do believe they can habitually sin and be saved (of which you did not claim). However, I lump their belief into what you believe because I do not see them as being all that different from what you believe because you still hold to the view that you can sin on occasion and still be saved or that you can die in unrepentant sin (like lying, adultery, unforgiveness, or hate, etc.) and still make into heaven.


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Please show me where I actually stated the sins you have mentioned concerning a person dying of them with unrepentant sin. If you cannot show me where i stated that, a person who wishes to follow Gods laws and not sin will apologise for making false statements about me I have not made

 

[stuart lawrence]

Thou shalt not bear false witness is a moral law Jason. Why do you not have a conscience when breaking it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You should read the bible more. He doesn't state it in Gal 3, he states it in phillipians 3:6:

As for zeal persecuting the church (obviously he is speaking of his time as a Pharisee) as for legalistic righteousness faultless

No. Paul was talking about how he was blameless in the ritual laws of the Pharisees and not God's laws. For it says he persecuted the church. Also, Paul compelled believers of Jesus to blaspheme.

"10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem; and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities". (Act 26:10-11)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". (I Timothy 1:15).

So Paul is not saying he was blameless in the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant being justified by faith in God (like all faithful OT saints) before Jesus came.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Please show me where I actually stated the sins you have mentioned concerning a person dying of them with unrepentant sin. If you cannot show me where i stated that, a person who wishes to follow Gods laws and not sin will apologise for making false statements about me I have not made

You said that there is no consequence to breaking God's laws because you are not under them (salvation wise) but yet you think your belief leads to obedience. However, the belief of saying that you are not under any of God's Laws (salvation wise) implies that you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins and still be saved. This means you do not have to do anything but believe in Jesus to be saved, right? For is not confession a work? Or do you believe a believer MUST continually confess and or repent of their sin to stay right with God?



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[JLB777]

But the Bible DOES teach that one can be perfect and holy.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus does not say shoot for perfection. He says be ye therefore perfect.

Elsewhere Scriptures states,

"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16).

James says,

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2).

Jesus says,

"...If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21).

Jesus also says,

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul says,

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:"

Paul also says,

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Philippians 3:15).

Paul also says,

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Colossians 1:28).

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may standperfect and complete in all the will of God." (Colossians 4:12).

The author of Hebrews says,

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20-21).

James says,

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4).

Peter says,

"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." (1 Peter 5:10).

1 Peter 4:1-5
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles — when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. NKJV

Surely all believers can cease or stop from sin entirely according to the passage above. We either believe the LORD in what His Word says plainly, or we don’t believe Him, hence the terms: believers, or unbelievers. Paul says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). David says he hid His Word (i.e. God''s Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD (Psalm 119:11). Jesus said he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). John says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). John also says he that does evil hates the light (John 3:20).

Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."


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I agree with you concerning the Christian's responsibility to "stop sinning", for we are told -

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:13-14

We are to put to death the deeds of the body and it's sinful cravings.


However, as far as the word "perfect", it seems that you are applying a meaning to what the scriptures require of us, that the original language does not mean.

In most cases the English word "perfect", carries the meaning of "complete" or "mature", as well as "mend" or repair" or "put in order".


Strongs 2675 - katartizō - perfect

to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete

1. to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
   
   to complete
   
   1. to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
      
      1. to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
         
   2. ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

JLB

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thou shalt not bear false witness is a moral law Jason. Why do you not have a conscience when breaking it?

I am more than happy to apologize if you do not believe that. But by what you said so far, it is a logical conclusion that this is what you would naturally believe. For I have talked with others who do believe they can die in unrepentant or unconfessed sin and still be saved (and yet they sing the same song that you do), my friend.


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[mercy1061]

You must be reading a different Bible then me. Where in Galatians 3 does Paul say he could have faultlessly obeyed the Law of Moses without Jesus Christ?




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Saul the Pharisee, was circumcised on the eighth day, as was Yeshua. Saul the Pharisee circumcised on the eighth day, as Torah teaches, long before his conversion.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. Paul was talking about how he was blameless in the ritual laws of the Pharisees and not God's laws. For it says he persecuted the church. Also, Paul compelled believers of Jesus to blaspheme.

"10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem; and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities". (Act 26:10-11)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". (I Timothy 1:15).

So Paul is not saying he was blameless in the Law of Moses under the Old Covenant being justified by faith in God (like all faithful OT saints) before Jesus came.


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Paul was not speaking of the moral law, for he admitted as a Pharisee he could nit keep the moral law, but he could faultlessly obey the rest of the law, the law you say is the only law mentioned in gal3:10&11

 

[stuart lawrence]

9

Paul was not speaking of the moral law, for he admitted as a Pharisee he could nit keep the moral law, but he could faultlessly obey the rest of the law, the law you say is the only law mentioned in gal3:10&11

all those laws you mentioned are moral laws, not legalistic laws. We know Paul could not obey the moral law as a Pharisee so your scriptures do not relate to the issue at hand

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am more than happy to apologize if you do not believe that. But by what you said so far, it is a logical conclusion that this is what you would naturally believe. For I have talked with others who do believe they can die in unrepentant or unconfessed sin and still be saved (and yet they sing the same song that you do), my friend.


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If you want my opinion on something please ask, do not put words in my mouth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree with you concerning the Christian's responsibility to "stop sinning", for we are told -

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:13-14

We are to put to death the deeds of the body and it's sinful cravings.

Excellent passage brother. I love this one. Thank you.

However, as far as the word "perfect", it seems that you are applying a meaning to what the scriptures require of us, that the original language does not mean.

In most cases the English word "perfect", carries the meaning of "complete" or "mature", as well as "mend" or repair" or "put in order".


Strongs 2675 - katartizō - perfect

to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete

1. to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
   
   to complete
   1. to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
      1. to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
   2. ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

JLB

Yes, I partly agree with you. I think in some instances the word "perfect" or it's related words is in reference to how you defined it above. A passage that would support this is:

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14).

Yet, there are going to be tears cried by some believers at the Bema Seat and loss of rewards. So not everyone is going to be 100% perfect. However, I also believe the word "perfect" in some cases means exactly that, though. For Jesus does call us to be 100% perfect as the Heavenly Father is 100% perfect. The Father is perfect because He is Holy and cannot sin. So Jesus sets the goal of perfection for us. God the Father. This is why we need a mediator betwen God and man. We cannot obey and or do the good things of God without a Savior. For Jesus died so as to cover our imperfections (or sins that do not lead unto death) and Jesus works in our hearts and lives so as to keep God's Commands under the New Covenant.

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[stuart lawrence]

You said that there is no consequence to breaking God's laws because you are not under them (salvation wise) but yet you think your belief leads to obedience. However, the belief of saying that you are not under any of God's Laws (salvation wise) implies that you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins and still be saved. This means you do not have to do anything but believe in Jesus to be saved, right? For is not confession a work? Or do you believe a believer MUST continually confess and or repent of their sin to stay right with God?



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You still do not understand the new covenant do you. That is tragic as we are speaking here of the core of the christian faith. It is a two part covenant, not one part. And no matter how much I tell you the first part mentioned cuts out the licence to sin you refuse to accept it. Either that, or you won't accept i am right in debate

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you want my opinion on something please ask, do not put words in my mouth.

Okay, tell it to me straight then. Do you believe that a saint can die in one or two unrepentant sins (like murder, hate, lying, adultery, etc.) and still be saved?

Yes, or no?

If you say "yes", then I was not really putting words in your mouth but I was merely telling you what I know you already believed.

If you say "no", I will be happy to make amends and apologize. But I would love an explanation as to how this belief is consistent with what you stated before, though.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You still do not understand the new covenant do you. That is tragic as we are speaking here of the core of the christian faith. It is a two part covenant, not one part. And no matter how much I tell you the first part mentioned cuts out the licence to sin you refuse to accept it. Either that, or you won't accept i am right in debate

Yet, Christ believed that believers could not be forgiven. For Jesus spoke to believers in Matthew 6:15 and not unbelievers. For it does not do any good for an unbeliever to forgive others so as to be saved. Also, we see nowhere else in the Bible where this Command of Jesus to not forgive others and not be forgiven by the Father is somehow undone.


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[Bible Highlighter]

9all those laws you mentioned are moral laws, not legalistic laws. We know Paul could not obey the moral law as a Pharisee so your scriptures do not relate to the issue at hand

You said he kept the law blamelessly. The law includes not blaspheming God and not sinning of which Paul did.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Saul the Pharisee, was circumcised on the eighth day, as was Yeshua. Saul the Pharisee circumcised on the eighth day, as Torah teaches, long before his conversion.

What are you trying to say? That we have to obey all of the Law of Moses or parts of it? I believe only the moral law has been carried over (of which we can see repeated in the New Testament).


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[stuart lawrence]

Yet, Christ believed that believers could not be forgiven. For Jesus spoke to believers in Matthew 6:15 and not unbelievers. For it does not do any good for an unbeliever to forgive others so as to be saved. Also, we see nowhere else in the Bible where this Command of Jesus to not forgive others and not be forgiven by the Father is somehow undone.


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Do you think the holy spirit who dwells in a believer is powerless to convict them concerning such a thing as you have mentioned. Do you believe in the baptism of the holy spirit as you seem not to mention the holy spirits work much