Trinity

[rnmomof7]

Would either of these matter to you, or would you still marginalize the CoJCoLDS as a non-Christian cult?



And, I do not see you as being unkind. I just see that you are determined to continue to see the CoJCoLDS in the same light you saw us regardless of me, Twhite, and DocT trying to explain where you do not understand our doctrine. I undoubtedly could find a plethora of Protestant doctrines you reject. If I did so, you rejected them, and I continued to show you the “truth” of your beliefs; would you be as patient as I am trying to be?



Charity, TOm

I learned your doctrine from knowledgeable , and truthful Mormons. I have made an extensive study .

See the post above with the words of your leaders and prophets. They hated Christians and did not wish to be associated with them.
That is because Joseph Smith was not a Christian in doctrine and neither are those that walk in his shoes today

 

[Der Alte]

Oh my goodness!


I never realized that there were so many different kinds of trinities worshiped.

It is way too confusing for me.

I think I will stick with the Father/Son explanation.
Jehovah is the Father and Jesus is the Son.
Jehovah is Almighty God.

Have a good night.

Oh my goodness, I didn't realize there were so many gullible people. If a JW says something about non-JW churches, or it is written in JW literature, regardless how absurd, all other JW's swallow it, without question.

 

[lared]

Prove it.

 

[TOmNossor]

Der Alter,



Sorry I misunderstood. When I said Orthodox Christians, I was being lazy. I meant Easter Orthodox. Sorry.



Concerning the ECF and deification: Wow. I thought you were acknowledging this.

If you ascribe to the test of St. Vincent de Lerins, I think you must seriously consider deification. Here are some.



Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).



Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).



Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 ...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ... how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).



Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. ...man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God... we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods...He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.(ANF 1.522-523).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God...(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]



Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. ...He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. ... keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).



Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one's self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God...But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God...and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."(ANF 2.271).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 By thus receiving the Lord's power, the soul studies to be God; ...To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).







These come from a Catholic friend of mine. I have about 3 times this much if you would like more.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Rnmomof7:

Tom , you are at variance with your own prophet . Joseph Smith believed Catholicism and Protestantism to he heretical .
He had no place of honor for any of them.

He denied all the creeds and spoke against them. He had a minister as the tool of Satan in one of the rituals

It seems that you be" a courting" folks ..perhaps a missionary outreach?? :>)



TOm:



I most definitely have a missionary spirit of some sort. I hope you smile encouragingly.

Concerning the Catholic Church, I left Catholicism in ignorance and while an active LDS I researched the church of my youth to determine if I should be Catholic again. I tell all my Catholic friends that I have become more logically and spiritually convinced of the CoJCoLDS, but I have a door. If God knocks, I will always open to whatever is on the other side.



Concerning non-Catholic Christians I have a few issues that would hold me back, but again if my pitifully inadequate self can hear a knock, I will open the door.



I believe in God first. I have always embraced Christ as my savior and never found a compelling reason not to. This makes me a Christian before a LDS, but oh my do I see an overwhelming strength in the position of the CoJCoLDS even compared to the strength I see in the Catholic Church.



All the quotes you listed with the exception of the BOM quote are past prophets and leaders. I believe they spoke as one who was running from the persecutions and speaking to other church members. Joseph Smith also said very positive things about some Protestant sects and also claimed he would die to defend their right to worship based on the dictates of their own heart. So while I do not embrace many of the statements and I do not have to, I do understand that they are not too dam*ing of the character of those who said them in that these were unusual times of persecutions and mutual misunderstandings.



It is also quite clear that President Hinkley nor any current general authorities are into dam*ing other religions. Today in Sunday school we read the BOM quote you referenced and I waited to correct the first person who tried to point to the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. No one did. I was slightly pleasantly surprised. LDS can learn too!



So who is the church of the devil? I believe that Jesus Christ is at the head of the CoJCoLDS. I believe that any church that has the structure and theology necessary to bring fallen humans from selfishness to the place where with all their mind, body, and spirit they wish to do the will of the Father is serving God too. If my Christian brothers and sisters loose their will in the will of the Eternal God, then I cannot imagine they would not embrace the fullness of his gospel if given a “fair and just opportunity.” So, per my read of LDS theology, the church of the devil is the church that does not convert the spirits of men to the will of God.



I still look to the CoJCoLDS as not only the most logical solution to the available historical data, but also as the most sure path to the surrender of ones will to God. So, I have no trouble encouraging those who are looking to join the CoJCoLDS. And to those who are not looking (like my Catholic friends) I just wish to share in their journey.



The above views are on the edge of the spectrum of what is allowable within my church (the good edge in my mind). In this post I have departed from many of my LDS friends I suspect, but I also doubt they will condemn me for it. I also hope if any of them disagree they might consider what I said. My in depth study of Catholicism and my less in depth study of Protestant views, taught me that the God I know will embrace many of these wonderful Christians and give of them the fullness of his house.



Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Rnmomof7:

I learned your doctrine from knowledgeable , and truthful Mormons. I have made an extensive study



TOm:

I hope you are not suggesting I am not truthful.

I have never met an active LDS who didn’t reject the title of polytheist. The ones you met were surely enigmas.

The spectrum of beliefs allowable within the LDS church is really quite large. I present what I think to be the most logically and spiritually coherent explanation of the scriptures, current and past(not binding) teachings of general authorities, and my observation of the world around me.

I have only been a serious student for about 3 years, but with my pride problems and all I already think I am pretty well versed.

Also, except for my post just before this, I have not gone far of the beaten path.



Rnmomof7
See the post above with the words of your leaders and prophets. They hated Christians and did not wish to be associated with them.
That is because Joseph Smith was not a Christian in doctrine and neither are those that walk in his shoes today



TOm:

I believe it is ridiculous to suggest that the leaders of the CoJCoLDS at any time have hated Christians.

I do not believe that the CoJCoLDS has put forth as sustained attack against Christianity as you have put forth again the CoJCoLDS hardly ever. I do not hate you and I do not think you hate me. In fact since I am pretty sure that you have no intention of becoming a LDS and nothing I say will change your mind, I hope that you speak out against my church because you love me and wish that I would return to the truths you know. I would love you even where I unable to see that you love me, but I enjoy the vision.



Charity, TOm

 

[Der Alte]

Prove it.

You first!​

 

[xsimmsx]

xsimmsx:


What I believe, what I believe history shows us, and what Catholics believe is that I cannot demand that your view of God is wrong based on scripture. I believe we could go in circles for (is it 7 pages) based on scripture and not come to a conclusion. This is why God left his church with authority and priesthood.



Anyway, thank you for the education on Modalism. I will try to add that greater than three caveat into any future post on the nature of God.

I would invite you to not call me, Protestants, Catholics, JW, or anyone who rejects the term, POLYTHEISTS.

I understand that Jews called Sabellian Christians polytheists. I believe that semi-ancient Jews (somewhat hellenized) would also call you polytheistic. If you reject this term when applied to you I invite you to not use it when applied to me.



The Biblical scholar Margaret Barker (I am pretty sure she is Protestant in that her book is published by Westminster/John Knox Press) has recently 1992 written a book entitled, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. In it she suggests that the idea of a Second God is really Jewish and that Christ is that great angel from the Old Testament. I have actually not read this, but I have heard some good things about it. You might be interested in it in that you too hold that some of the “Angels” in the Old Testament” are God.



Charity, TOm

The only thing that limits God is the truth that is his only box.

Actually Jews would not say what I believe is Polytheism. I keep in agreement with the absolute oneness of God. The problem for the jews is that I ascribe that God as being Jesus. It is Jesus that they deny not the ability of God to exist outside the Box. Remember how many sects their were in Jesus days on the earth as man. Examples Saducees, Pharisees, Herodian etc. They were still placing God outside of confines somewhere in their dogma as long as it lined up with their thinking they would go to whatever extreme. The difference between that and a christian belief is that we don't place God in a box of our own thinking we admit that we are in the box and he is outside of it defining the dimensions of the box we live in. Then we study the scripture to get to know him better. We listen for his voice so that we can know what area of the box he is moving in now. our relationship with God is a lot more personal than it is academic. Because we are interested in what God is doing right now in the present not just what he already did or what he is going to do. The scripture is what we base our beliefs in. God never comprimised being absolutely one numerically in person. That is what we believe that he is one. Without any confusion. I don't have to think what member of a Godhead to pray to because I know there is only one member of the Godhead and his name is Jesus. I let them know that Jesus is God absolutely One. They will reject that because they are not his sheep not because of any polytheism in my doctrine. They would have to prove polytheism in what I say in order top be poly there would have to be more than the number one. I say there is no God but the Father. I say Jesus is that God the Father. pretty simple math.

In Love,
Joshua


P.S.

sorry I missed a statement about the Angels let me touch on that. The Angel of God is just another expression of Jesus like all of the other ways God has manifested himself to us. Therefore the Angel is God because he is Jesus, he is Jehovah. Remember Apostle Paul only served one God the Father. Never more than One God the Father and he would never serve any other. Remember Paul's passion and zeal for God at first it was channeled incorrectly. But after he met Jesus that's right God in heaven he knew that Jesus was God. Then he expressed it fully by preaching the Gospel. Well if you notice his journey through acts he talks about the one he serves Remember he only has One Lord Jesus Christ who has purchased him with a price. Therefore he belongs to Jesus as a possesion would. And he says....

Acts 27:23:
For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve

 

[xsimmsx]

For your information Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in two Gods as Supreme and Worshipable Only one Jehovah God Almighty. Jesus will be handed the position by his Father for !,000 years but He will still be Higher than Jesus.

the bible declares that Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. to be king of kings means you are absolutely higher than any other king in existence. to be lord of lords means that you are absolutely higher than any other lord. so if Jesus is a different lord than the father as you say he is then he is higher than the father. your teaching is full of error [Edited by a moderator] the bible also calls Jesus God almighty so who is God almighty Jesus or Jehovah? come on which one because their is only one God. Or are you saying the bible is lying? I say it is truth therefore bothe Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same God the Father because there is no two. God is totally One that is it. If you worship only one God the Father then fall to your knees and worship your Lord and your God as Thomas did. O wait he was worshipping Jesus. It is a Good thing to worship Jesus. It is a bad thing not to. If you have a problem with Jesus then you have a problem with Jehovah. Period.


Still correcting your errors faithfully,
Joshua

 

[pmarquette]

Some items are implied , v's spelled out : Trinity , Rapture , Ectasy , epiphany . Words not found specifically , but explain event , concept , or early church doctrine , dogma , principle .

As a Monotheistic , nontrinitarian , explain the following passages :

Genesis 1 " let us , create man , in our image - plural : elohiem ; singular : eL

The baptism of Jesus :
voice of God , Jesus in water , Holy Spirit descending

The Epistles of John :
the 3 who bear witness in heaven : water [ God ] , spirit [ Holy Spirit ] & blood [ Jesus ]

The testimony of Jesus
It is expedient that I return to the father , so the advocate can come ( Holy Spirit )

If you see me you see the father :
vision of John in Revelation ( Jesus ), identical to vision of Daniel ( ancient of days - God )

 

[rnmomof7]

Rnmomof7:

I learned your doctrine from knowledgeable , and truthful Mormons. I have made an extensive study



TOm:

I hope you are not suggesting I am not truthful.

I am implying you are using the Missionary bob and weave.:>)

I have never met an active LDS who didn’t reject the title of polytheist. The ones you met were surely enigmas.

The LDS I know admitted they believed in a multitude of other gods, but that they were to worship only the god of this planet. and that they hoped they would be gods of their own planets some day.

By definition a belief in more than one god is polytheism

In Mormonism you have the plurality of gods, plurality of marriages, plurality of worlds and even other saviors. The LDS believes other worlds have the fall repeated just like Adam and Eve on earth. So there must be a savior for them as well.

The LDS Godhead doctrine seems to change all the time. It began as Trinitarians, became Unitarians ("modalists", to be precise, the Book of Mormon teaching), then became Binitarians -- two Gods (at Kirtland), then Tritheists -- three Gods (at Nauvoo), then rampant Polytheists -- billions of gods (in early Utah), to then return to their moderate polytheism of three Gods today.
Orthodox Christians have a stable doctrine! There are some really deep teachings in the Bible which man cannot be expected to fathom but which Trinitarian formulations can explain better than LDS polytheism, such as the instance in which Jesus told Nicodemus that He was simultaneously in heaven and on earth, something Mormons in their physical mind-frame cannot fathom.



"...according to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest."
Doctrine and Covenants 121:32

MEN ARE GODS IN EMBRYO


Now I understand you wince at the term polytheism . However Henotheism. is simply a form of polytheism

The spectrum of beliefs allowable within the LDS church is really quite large. I present what I think to be the most logically and spiritually coherent explanation of the scriptures, current and past(not binding) teachings of general authorities, and my observation of the world around me.

I once read an article written by a man that often debated Mormons.

He commented that trying to get a definitive answer out of a mormon was like trying to nail jello to a wall.
It was his opinion that the leadership has intentionally kept actual doctrine (that is written,not taught or believed ) to a minimum so they always had plausible deniability . I have come to se the truth of that .

For instance McConkey caused quite a stir in mormon circles when he denied knowing of progression and denied the snow couplet..kind of "lying for the Lord" I guess..but observant Mormons were upset that he had misstated a church doctrine.

I just read an article written by a Mormon where he said his mother ..a member for 20 years had never heard of eternal progression. There is intentional misstating ,and hiding So it does not surprise me that you may have a different doctrine.

BTW the word of God is fixed as is His nature ..you guys have a doctrine that seems to revolve every 10 minutes.

There is the Father had sex with Mary "speculation" so "the father" was the physical father of jesus

Then there is the ever popular Adam was god "speculation"

I have met Mormons that believe the church had no right to eliminate polygamy

You "doctrine "changed from the POM to the PoGP to the D&C ( the actual teachings by the prophets)

A non Mormon trying to understand what you believe is faced with a religion that claims to restore Christianity has more speculation than answers.

I have only been a serious student for about 3 years, but with my pride problems and all I already think I am pretty well versed.

Till you read another book or a new speculation comes up:>)

Also, except for my post just before this, I have not gone far of the beaten path.



Rnmomof7
See the post above with the words of your leaders and prophets. They hated Christians and did not wish to be associated with them.
That is because Joseph Smith was not a Christian in doctrine and neither are those that walk in his shoes today



TOm:

I believe it is ridiculous to suggest that the leaders of the CoJCoLDS at any time have hated Christians.

I do not believe that the CoJCoLDS has put forth as sustained attack against Christianity as you have put forth again the CoJCoLDS hardly ever. I do not hate you and I do not think you hate me. In fact since I am pretty sure that you have no intention of becoming a LDS and nothing I say will change your mind, I hope that you speak out against my church because you love me and wish that I would return to the truths you know. I would love you even where I unable to see that you love me, but I enjoy the vision.

You are right I am a missionaries worse nightmare:>)

I do not "hate you." or any Mormon , I consider Joseph Smith a deceived reprobate (Brigham too)

I believe that Mormons are a spiritually deceived people that will learn of the day of Judgment there is no second chance , and that indeed hell is for eternity .

Perhaps I should reword my words about JS (and BY) and say he/they hated Christian religions .


"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

"This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..."
- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 10:127

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be ****** with your priest.
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches ... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:172

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."
- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (p. 266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great harlot, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foudation of this (Mormon) church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."
- Supposedly Jesus Christ Himself, Doctrine and Covenants 1:30

Salvation not through accepting Jesus Christ, but Joseph Smith?

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are"
- Prophet Birgham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289

"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- Prophet George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God.. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255


All of this kinnda makes one wonder why the "saints" now want to be called Christians.

So deep was the hatred for the doctrines and practices of the Christian church that the endowment ceremony had a protestant minister as a tool of satan

Tom I believe that the LDS uses deceptive "language" to present them selves as a Christian faith and then uses mind control to indoctrinate them .

I am a Calvinist..so I believe that all that God intends to save will hear the gospel and be saved. So I do not worry about the eternity of mormons ..but I do have an interest in the correct presentation of the gospel as should all Christians.

We can have a friendly exchange..and even be friends..
I offer no threat to the LDS..I trust God to open ears and change hearts.

You said you have only been a "serious " student for a few years" Were you born into the church or are you a convert?

 

[TOmNossor]

Rnmomof7:

I am implying you are using the Missionary bob and weave.:>)



TOm:

Toward what end? Do I trick others into joining the church then they find out the truth too late? I would not dream of walking up to someone who asked me about religion and saying, “Hello, our founding Prophet practiced Polygamy want to hear about my church?”

At the same time I would also not want to trick someone to enter into my church.

I explain what I believe. I explain what members of my church believe.



WRT, polytheism, I point out that it is the Protestants who do not embrace the deification of man.



You correctly noted:

MEN ARE GODS IN EMBRYO



This is absolutely true.



I have in no way every tried to deny Eternal Progression.

I would like to see where McConkie denied it.



Concerning the Snow couplet it is not doctrinal, but MEN can become Gods.



In another thread I showed that deification is Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Early Church doctrine.



Rnmomof7:

I am a Calvinist..so I believe that all that God intends to save will hear the gospel and be saved. So I do not worry about the eternity of mormons ..but I do have an interest in the correct presentation of the gospel as should all Christians.



TOm:

In truth I prolly misunderstand Calvinistic predestination. Does it mean that all of us are strictly predestined to either accept or reject the true Gospel? Thus our works, study, prayer, … have no effect on our salvation?



I have wondered about this ever since I was first introduced to Calvinism. I suspect I am wrong.



And I hardly consider you my worst nightmare. The most difficult witness I have ever dealt with is the non-LDS man who understands my church better than I do. He is thus far a singularity upon all the face of the Internet and my personal life. He is far and away more informed than any non-LDS I have ever met. I am virtually certain he would both agree with what I have said and reject your “missionary bob and weave” statement. I know this partially because I have learned some things about my theology from him (once again demonstrating his uniqueness).



Many Christians love me, but few non-LDS understand much about my church or my beliefs.



Charity, TOm

 

[Der Alte]

Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).

Out-of-context! What did Justin mean by "deified", when he speaks of only one God? Justin did say, “men are deemed worthy of becoming gods”, in the same way as the unjust judges in Psalm 82.

I said, Ye are gods, and are all children of the Most High. But ye die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God! judge the earth, for Thou shalt inherit all nations.' But in the version of the Seventy it is written, `Behold, ye die like men, and fall like one of the princes, ' in order to manifest the disobedience of men,-I mean of Adam and Eve,-and the fall of one of the princes, i.e., of him who was called the serpent, who fell with a great overthrow, because he deceived Eve. But as my discourse is not intended to touch on this point, but to prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, and yet they, becoming like Adam and Eve, work out death for themselves; let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods," and of having power to become sons of the Highest; and shall be each by himself judged and condemned like Adam and Eve. Now I have proved at length that Christ is called God.

Chapter CXXXV.-Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325
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Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Not in the work cited.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-49.htm#P5246_1207437

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

Another out-of-context quote. Let’s read what Irenaeus actually said.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: "God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods."25 He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God-that is, the Son Himself-has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: "The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and hath called the earth." Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, "God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; " that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, "I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not." But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."

2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM That I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you; "31 and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-60.htm#P7297_1937859
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Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]

Becoming sons of god, being immortal and incorruptible is NOT becoming God!

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 ...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).

Does this say that man will be deified or that “God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption?” Throughout this writing Irenaeus constantly repeats “only one God.”

For whatsoever all the heretics may have advanced with the utmost solemnity, they come to this at last, that they blaspheme the Creator, and disallow the salvation of God's workmanship, which the flesh truly is; on behalf of which I have proved, in a variety of ways, that the Son of God accomplished the whole dispensation [of mercy], and have shown that there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption.

Chapter I.-The Lord Acknowledged But One God and Father.

1. Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption, that is, those who believe in the one and true God, and in Jesus Christ the Son of God; and likewise that the apostles did Of themselves term no one else as God, or name [no other] as Lord; and, what is much more important, [since it is true] that our Lord [acted likewise], who did also command us to confess no one as Father, except Him who is in the heavens, who is the one God and the one Father;-those things are clearly shown to be false which these deceivers and most perverse sophists advance, maintaining that the being whom they have themselves invented is by nature both God and Father; but that the I Demiurge is naturally neither God nor Father, but is so termed merely by courtesy (verbo tenus), because of his ruling the creation, these perverse mythologists state, setting their thoughts against God; and, putting aside the doctrine of Christ, and of themselves divining falsehoods, they dispute against the entire dispensation of God. For they maintain that their Aeons, and gods, and fathers, and lords, are also still further termed heavens, together with their Mother, whom they do also call "the Earth," and "Jerusalem," while they also style her many other names.

2. Now to whom is it not clear, that if the Lord had known many fathers and gods, He would not have taught His disciples to know [only] one God, and to call Him alone Father? But He did the rather distinguish those who by word merely (verbo tenus) are termed gods, from Him who is truly God, that they should not err as to His doctrine, nor understand one [in mistake] for another. And if He did indeed teach us to call one Being Father and God, while He does from time to time Himself confess other fathers and gods in the same sense, then He will appear to enjoin a different course upon His disciples from what He follows Himself. Such conduct, however, does not bespeak the good teacher, but a misleading and invidious one. The apostles, too, according to these men's showing, are proved to be transgressors of the commandment, since they confess the Creator as God, and Lord, and Father, as I have shown-if He is not alone God and Father. Jesus, therefore, will be to them the author and teacher of such transgression, inasmuch as He commanded that one Being should be called Father, thus imposing upon them the necessity of confessing the Creator as their Father, as has been pointed out.

Chapter II.-Proofs from the Plain Testimony of Moses, and of the Other Prophets, Whose Words are the Words of Christ, that There is But One God, the Founder of the World, Whom Our Lord Preached, and Whom He Called His Father

Chapter V.-The Author Returns to His Former Argument, and Shows that There Was But One God Announced by the Law and Prophets, Whom Christ Confesses as His Father, and Who, Through His Word, One Living God with Him, Made Himself Known to Men in Both Covenants.

Chapter XL.-One and the Same God the Father Inflicts Punishment on the Reprobate, and Bestows Rewards on the Elect.

2. If, however, it were truly one Father who confers rest, and another God who has prepared the fire, their sons would have been equally different [one from the other]; one, indeed, sending [men] into the Father's kingdom, but the other into eternal fire. But inasmuch as one and the same Lord has pointed out that the whole human race shall be divided at the judgment, "as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goats," and that to some He will say, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you," but to others, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels," one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], "making peace and creating evil things," preparing fit things for both; as also there is one Judge sending both into a fit place, as the Lord sets forth in the parable of the tares and the wheat, where He says, "As therefore the tares are gathered together, and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world. The Son of man shall send His angels, and they shall gather from His kingdom everything that offendeth, and those who work iniquity, and shall send them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the just shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." The Father, therefore, who has prepared the kingdom for the righteous, into which the Son has received those worthy of it, is He who has also prepared the furnace of fire, into which these angels commissioned by the Son of man shall send those persons who deserve it, according to God's command.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226
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[Der Alte]

In another thread I showed that deification is Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Early Church doctrine.

You might want to review all those "proof text" quotes from the ECF, because the ones I have checked do NOT support your assertion. The majority of the ECF did NOT teach that man would be deified! This is the right thread. See my post immediately above.

 

[TOmNossor]

Der Alger:

You might want to review all those "proof text" quotes from the ECF, because the ones I have checked do NOT support your assertion. The majority of the ECF did NOT teach that man would be deified! This is the right thread. See my post immediately above.



TOm:

I am not sure how you do not see that men may become Gods from what I posted. Father Jordan Vajda did a study of LDS deification vs. the ECF. This is what he said about that study (forgive me if I posted this in this thread already).



"The underlying motive for this thesis," Father Vajda states in the new introduction that he has written for FARMS, "was my . . . perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label 'Christian' to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDS Church as to its 'non-Christian' status were equally flawed." Accordingly, he decided that he "wanted to reach beyond the rhetoric and discover for [himself] what the LDS Church actually taught," in the hope of encouraging responsible and accurate interfaith dialogue.


"I firmly maintain," writes Father Vajda, "that the Latter-day Saints are owed a debt of gratitude by other Christians because the Saints remind us all of our divine potential. The historic Christian doctrine of salvation theosis, i.e., human divinization for too long has been forgotten by too many Christians." "Members of the LDS Church," he promises near the beginning of his thesis, "will discover unmistakable evidence that their fundamental belief about human salvation and potential is not unique nor a Mormon invention. Latin Catholics and Protestants will learn of a doctrine of salvation that, while relatively foreign to their ears, is nevertheless part of the heritage of the undivided Catholic Church of the first millennium. Members of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches will discover on the American continent an amazing parallel to their own belief that salvation in Christ involves our becoming 'partakers of the divine nature.'"



Der Alger:

Out-of-context! What did Justin mean by "deified", when he speaks of only one God? Justin did say, “men are deemed worthy of becoming gods”, in the same way as the unjust judges in Psalm 82.



TOm:

I do not see what you are saying when you suggest these are out of context. LDS are totally comfortable with the term One God. We believe it is the communion that Jesus Christ enjoys in which we are invited to partake, and Jesus and the Father are One.



Der Alger:

Does this say that man will be deified or that “God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption?” Throughout this writing Irenaeus constantly repeats “only one God.”



TOm:

LDS believe that they will never be equal to Heavenly Father. We also still embrace “only one God.” So you agree that Irenaeus agrees with us, you just do not understand us.



I will go ahead and post the full list. I had trouble finding the one quote you couldn’t find. I will start my list from the last one you were able to look at radically differently than Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and most Patristic Scholars do.



If you search to see what Patristic Scholars think about these quotes I believe you will find the majority agree with the Catholic church that this is men becoming gods by participation with Christ and partaking of the divine nature. LDS agree with this, but since we reject “Creation ex nihilo,” and we believe that men are already homoousian (of the same substance in the original Nicene meaning) with God we do not posit the extra step of men becoming uncreated. Other than this, LDS and ECF deification are virtually identical as Father Vajda observed in his masters thesis.



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ... how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).



Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.38.3-4 His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. ...man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God... we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods...He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.(ANF 1.521-522).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.39.2 How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God.(ANF 1.522-523).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).



Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God...(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]



Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. ...He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. ... keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.(ANF 2.174).



Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one's self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God...But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God...and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."(ANF 2.271).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 By thus receiving the Lord's power, the soul studies to be God; ...To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 ...they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour.(ANF 2.539).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.13 What, then, shall we say of the [true] Gnostic himself? “Know ye not”, says the apostle, “that ye are the temple of God?” The [true] Gnostic is consequently divine, and already holy, God-bearing and God-borne. (ANF 2.547).



Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.16 But he who has returned from this deception, on hearing the Scriptures, and turned his life to the truth, is, as it were, from being a man made a god.(ANF 2.551)



Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, "I have said, Ye are gods," and "God standeth in the congregation of the gods." But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.(ANF 3.480).



Tertullian - Adv. Marcion 25 Now, although Adam was by reason of his condition under law subject to death, yet was hope preserved to him by the Lord's saying, "Behold, Adam is become as one of us;" that is, in consequence of the future taking of the man into the divine nature.(ANF 3.317).



Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).



Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee.(ANF 5.151).
















TOm

I hope you will not think these are some group of out of context quotes. I believe that most patristic scholars recognize that deification was part of the Early Church. Few like Jordan Vajda have bothered to understand LDS deification and find the overwhelming similarities, but most know that Irenaeus would not baulk the way most Christian do at the statement, “men may become gods.”

I have many more, but I ran into character limit.


Charity, TOm

 

[rnmomof7]

Out-of-context! What did Justin mean by "deified", when he speaks of only one God? Justin did say, “men are deemed worthy of becoming gods”, in the same way as the unjust judges in Psalm 82.

I said, Ye are gods, and are all children of the Most High. But ye die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God! judge the earth, for Thou shalt inherit all nations.' But in the version of the Seventy it is written, `Behold, ye die like men, and fall like one of the princes, ' in order to manifest the disobedience of men,-I mean of Adam and Eve,-and the fall of one of the princes, i.e., of him who was called the serpent, who fell with a great overthrow, because he deceived Eve. But as my discourse is not intended to touch on this point, but to prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, and yet they, becoming like Adam and Eve, work out death for themselves; let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods," and of having power to become sons of the Highest; and shall be each by himself judged and condemned like Adam and Eve. Now I have proved at length that Christ is called God.

Chapter CXXXV.-Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325
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Not in the work cited.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-49.htm#P5246_1207437



Another out-of-context quote. Let’s read what Irenaeus actually said.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: "God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods."25 He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God-that is, the Son Himself-has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: "The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and hath called the earth." Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, "God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; " that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, "I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not." But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."

2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM That I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you; "31 and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-60.htm#P7297_1937859
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Becoming sons of god, being immortal and incorruptible is NOT becoming God!



Does this say that man will be deified or that “God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption?” Throughout this writing Irenaeus constantly repeats “only one God.”

For whatsoever all the heretics may have advanced with the utmost solemnity, they come to this at last, that they blaspheme the Creator, and disallow the salvation of God's workmanship, which the flesh truly is; on behalf of which I have proved, in a variety of ways, that the Son of God accomplished the whole dispensation [of mercy], and have shown that there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption.

Chapter I.-The Lord Acknowledged But One God and Father.

1. Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption, that is, those who believe in the one and true God, and in Jesus Christ the Son of God; and likewise that the apostles did Of themselves term no one else as God, or name [no other] as Lord; and, what is much more important, [since it is true] that our Lord [acted likewise], who did also command us to confess no one as Father, except Him who is in the heavens, who is the one God and the one Father;-those things are clearly shown to be false which these deceivers and most perverse sophists advance, maintaining that the being whom they have themselves invented is by nature both God and Father; but that the I Demiurge is naturally neither God nor Father, but is so termed merely by courtesy (verbo tenus), because of his ruling the creation, these perverse mythologists state, setting their thoughts against God; and, putting aside the doctrine of Christ, and of themselves divining falsehoods, they dispute against the entire dispensation of God. For they maintain that their Aeons, and gods, and fathers, and lords, are also still further termed heavens, together with their Mother, whom they do also call "the Earth," and "Jerusalem," while they also style her many other names.

2. Now to whom is it not clear, that if the Lord had known many fathers and gods, He would not have taught His disciples to know [only] one God, and to call Him alone Father? But He did the rather distinguish those who by word merely (verbo tenus) are termed gods, from Him who is truly God, that they should not err as to His doctrine, nor understand one [in mistake] for another. And if He did indeed teach us to call one Being Father and God, while He does from time to time Himself confess other fathers and gods in the same sense, then He will appear to enjoin a different course upon His disciples from what He follows Himself. Such conduct, however, does not bespeak the good teacher, but a misleading and invidious one. The apostles, too, according to these men's showing, are proved to be transgressors of the commandment, since they confess the Creator as God, and Lord, and Father, as I have shown-if He is not alone God and Father. Jesus, therefore, will be to them the author and teacher of such transgression, inasmuch as He commanded that one Being should be called Father, thus imposing upon them the necessity of confessing the Creator as their Father, as has been pointed out.

Chapter II.-Proofs from the Plain Testimony of Moses, and of the Other Prophets, Whose Words are the Words of Christ, that There is But One God, the Founder of the World, Whom Our Lord Preached, and Whom He Called His Father

Chapter V.-The Author Returns to His Former Argument, and Shows that There Was But One God Announced by the Law and Prophets, Whom Christ Confesses as His Father, and Who, Through His Word, One Living God with Him, Made Himself Known to Men in Both Covenants.

Chapter XL.-One and the Same God the Father Inflicts Punishment on the Reprobate, and Bestows Rewards on the Elect.

2. If, however, it were truly one Father who confers rest, and another God who has prepared the fire, their sons would have been equally different [one from the other]; one, indeed, sending [men] into the Father's kingdom, but the other into eternal fire. But inasmuch as one and the same Lord has pointed out that the whole human race shall be divided at the judgment, "as a shepherd divideth the sheep from the goats," and that to some He will say, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you," but to others, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels," one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], "making peace and creating evil things," preparing fit things for both; as also there is one Judge sending both into a fit place, as the Lord sets forth in the parable of the tares and the wheat, where He says, "As therefore the tares are gathered together, and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world. The Son of man shall send His angels, and they shall gather from His kingdom everything that offendeth, and those who work iniquity, and shall send them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the just shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." The Father, therefore, who has prepared the kingdom for the righteous, into which the Son has received those worthy of it, is He who has also prepared the furnace of fire, into which these angels commissioned by the Son of man shall send those persons who deserve it, according to God's command.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226
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The fact that Joseph Smith could not read Hebrew or Greek (only an " extinct egyptian language)

Left him without understanding that there are two different words for god..one is our God and the other means judge.
Scripture tells us that the saved will be judges.

The inability to rightly divide the word of God leads to false religions.

Thank you for the fine post

 

[Der Alte]

I am not sure how you do not see that men may become Gods from what I posted. Father Jordan Vajda did a study of LDS deification vs. the ECF. This is what he said about that study (forgive me if I posted this in this thread already.

Father Vajda states . . .

I hope you will not think these are some group of out of context quotes. I believe that most patristic scholars recognize that deification was part of the Early Church. Few like Jordan Vajda have bothered to understand LDS deification and find the overwhelming similarities, but most know that Irenaeus would not baulk the way most Christian do at the statement, “men may become gods.”

I have many more, but I ran into character limit.

First, check my name it is Der Alter, it means "The Elder," in German and Yiddish. I don't know who or what "Alger" is.

Now a word from our sponsor.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.​

I start with the assumption that God, speaking here, means exactly what He says and nothing less. If there is, or will be, a god after Him, God would know it, but God very clearly said, there was NO god before Him, NO god beside Him, and NO god after Him. God does NOT know any other god. I also assume that the ECF mean exactly this when they speak of one God, unless it can be conclusively shown otherwise.

I am no more interested in what Vajda said than the other names you mentioned. I would like to concentrate on the ECF and yes that entire list is out-of-context as I have shown by the few that I addressed.

I showed how the ECF I addressed did NOT say that men may become Gods, in an unqualified sense. Many of these ECF quote part of Psalm 82. Let us see if God said that men actually were, or would become, gods?

Psa 82:1 <A Psalm of Asaph.> God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
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Notice what God says about the ones who are called gods, Elohim. They judge unjustly, show favoritism to the wicked, lack knowledge and understanding, and walk in darkness. Although they may be called gods they will die like the ordinary men they actually are.

Unless it can be conclusively shown that this psalm means something else, I assume the ECF are quoting it in this sense, particularly when they go on to say there is only one God. If you want to be numbered among this group of unjust judges, be my guest.

Justin - 1st Ap. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

Out-of-context! What did Justin mean by "deified", when he speaks of only one God? Justin did say, “men are deemed worthy of becoming gods”, in the same way as the unjust judges in Psalm 82.

You did not answer my question. Since Justin went on repeatedly to speak of only one God, and state that man would become immortal, NOT gods, he obviously did not mean that men would become gods. In this prefatory remark Justin shows that pagan emperors are not worthy to be deified, only Christians are.

Note that Justin goes on to say that Christians are “worthy to be called the Son of God, worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him, and shall be clothed with immortality.” but never once, beyond the single use of the word “deification,” does he say that men will become gods.

And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. . . But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

Chapter XXII.-Analogies to the Sonship of Christ.

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods.

For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him.

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967
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Here are some of the quotes from your list which can be quickly eliminated without even referring to the complete writing.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ... how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).

Equivocation, “pass into God,” does not necessarily mean become God.

Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

Equivocation, “join to God” does not necessarily mean become God.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).

Equivocation, “be even what He is Himself ” does not necessarily mean become God. Become a child of God, become immortal, become incorruptible, etc.

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.1.1 Since the Lord thus has redeemed us through His own blood, giving His soul for our souls, and His flesh for our flesh, and has also poured out the Spirit of the Father for the union and communion of God and man, imparting indeed God to men by means of the Spirit, and, on the other hand, attaching man to God by His own incarnation, and bestowing upon us at His coming immortality durably and truly, by means of communion with God...(ANF 1.527).[see also 5.36.3]

Equivocation, “ attaching man to God . . . bestowing upon us . . .immortality. . .communion with God... ” does not necessarily mean become God.

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).

Equivocation, quotes Psalm 82, unjust judges who walk in darkness and die like ordinary men..

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 By thus receiving the Lord's power, the soul studies to be God; ...To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).

Equivocation, “receiving the Lord's power, . . .the likeness of God, . . . adoption and the friendship of God” does NOT mean becoming god.

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 Well, then, you say, we ourselves possess nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do—only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, "I have said, Ye are gods," and "God standeth in the congregation of the gods." But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.(ANF 3.480).

Equivocation, quotes Psalm 82, unjust judges who walk in darkness and die like ordinary men.

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.13 What, then, shall we say of the [true] Gnostic himself? “Know ye not”, says the apostle, “that ye are the temple of God?” The [true] Gnostic is consequently divine, and already holy, God-bearing and God-borne. (ANF 2.547).

Equivocation, “divine, . . .holy, God-bearing and God-borne,” does NOT mean becoming god.

Tertullian - Adv. Marcion 25 Now, although Adam was by reason of his condition under law subject to death, yet was hope preserved to him by the Lord's saying, "Behold, Adam is become as one of us;" that is, in consequence of the future taking of the man into the divine nature.(ANF 3.317).

Equivocation, in Gen 1, “become as one of us” is qualified, “to know good and evil.” NOT like God in every sense. “divine nature,” does NOT mean become God.

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee.(ANF 5.151).

Equivocation, “desirous of also becoming a god” does NOT mean become God. Does Hippolytus ever go on to say that man may actually become a god? That might be relevant.

Don’t bother posting any more of this laundry list, I do not have the time or the inclination to research dozens of quotes from the ECF. As I have shown the overwhelming majority are out-of-context and the conclusion you reached is NOT supported by the bulk of the writings.

 

[TOmNossor]

Der Alter and Malaka,



First, sorry about your name Der Alter.



I find the interpretation interesting concerning God vs Judge. I could look into this more, but I expect that I cannot explicitly deny you this interpretation of the word in most places.

I stick by my assessment that the majority of patristic scholars and many modern day Roman Catholic disagree with you, but that does not mean you are necessarily wrong.



Concerning the one God, as we participate we become just as Jesus is part of the divine community. So I do not reject one God statements.



Anyway, I will not post another long list.



Charity, TOm

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter and Malaka,

I find the interpretation interesting concerning God vs Judge. I could look into this more, but I expect that I cannot explicitly deny you this interpretation of the word in most places.

If one reads Psalm 82, it is clear, God is speaking to those who judge unjustly. If you have a PC Bible program do a search on the word "elohim," it is the generic term for god. You will find it used for pagan idols, judges, kings, and angels.

I stick by my assessment that the majority of patristic scholars and many modern day Roman Catholic disagree with you, but that does not mean you are necessarily wrong.

Which is exactly what I expected. Although I have shown that most of the quotes you posted do not clearly state that man may become god, you continue to insist they do.

Concerning the one God, as we participate we become just as Jesus is part of the divine community. So I do not reject one God statements.

Divine community? Where can I find that in scripture? Did you read Isaiah?

 

[Peterson]

It seems to me that trinitarians, who think that Athanasius was the only one who could define the Godhead, would agree with his other statement that, "God became man, so that man could become God."

Divine community? How about divine family? 1 John 3:1-2; "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2; Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Romans 8:16-17, tells us that we are, "joint heirs with Christ."
It would logically follow, that if your father is a Larson, and your elder brother is a Larson, you would obviously be a Larson.

God, the Father, created man because he is in the process of recreating himself. This earthly existence is only a stepping stone in that direction.