Trinity

[True Believer]

No you did NOT “simply” post the Catholic rendering, you went on to reinterpret what the article said. The word “group” does NOT appear in the article you quoted. And you said , “not 1 GOD.” and the article says, “not three God but one God..” If you have trouble seeing the difference I have highlighted it in red.





You are only partly correct the JW has nothing to do with writing of the articles in the Catholic Encyclopedia but they have everything to do with misquoting or quoting out of context, or misinterpreting the articles as you have done.

”Why go to a site other than the official site of the Knights of Columbus, Advent which is both run and supported by the Catholics, now that sounds like second and third hand information!” I don’t even understand what this is talking about.

You don't understand because all you want to do is argue not discuss. I posted and linked the official Catholic site and you came back with it not being right and posted a link to some other site instead as if the Knights of Columbus had some secret agenda
I will explain one more time. If you quote the Catholic Encyclopedia, then quote it, NOT what some other source claims the C.E. says. I happen to know that the first quote supposedly quoted from the C.E. is misquoted in exactly the same way in certain denominational literature. And I posted more of the context of the article to show how it was misquoted.

This is exactly what I am talking about I copied the paragraph directly from the article AND left the link so anyone could follow and check for to see if I changed anything which I did not!!!!!!!!!!!!! and still you attack because after words I said what I felt an except meant as far as my reading of it said.

When you have 3 GODS Jehovah God, Jesus God and Holy Spirit God and then you say but they are only 1 GOD That to me says a Group of Gods like a company partnership. BUT everthing written about Jehovah and Jesus is in the light of a Family All of the Bible relationships are written as we are all one huge Family with some Black Sheep Satan,Demons, and some Humans.
As Head of the Family Jehovah is the One in Charge and as such he Is the One to be given the most respect to not even his most beloved and favorite son Jesus has that position. It is just logical.
( Now before you start attacking the JW's again this is no where I repeat no where in their writtings this is my findings after 40 years of study of different Bibles (there are no 2 alike)and making sense of what has been written by many different writers.)
I don't just accept ANYONES word for anything if I can't agree with them I won't. The Society has made changes as they have done more research and things written in the past that they found to be wrong have been updated as more accuracy has been learned. So printing old early information and error does not mean they are wrong just as the Apostles had to learn and change they also learn and change to follow better understanding.At least they will admit to not knowing everything.

 

[lared]

We know full well that Jehovah and Jesus are not the same person because Jehovah was in heaven when Jesus was being baptized. Jehovah's voice came down from heaven and said of Jesus.....that Jesus was his beloved, the one whom he approved.

One can claim ancient Greek scholarship or adherence to traditional creeds or even to mysteries, but as for me....I see that as two different persons in two different places.

Oh yes.....one can take a hand full of scriptures and use them to defend the trinity. But I can take a truckload of scriptures to disprove them.

Just as a homosexual may take the verse that says you must love your neighbor. Anyone can take a verse or verses and defend their cause.

But to me, it is not worth arguing. I only jump in now and then for the sake of the one person who may come across this site and be able to discern truth.

It is not worth spending centuries of time because that time could be better spent declaring the good news of the kingdom.---Matthew 24:14......something that the trinity god worshipers fail to disclose.

As mentioned above.....a voice in heaven (Jehovah God) approving of his son (not self, but....Jesus) who was being baptized.

If someone could be approved, they could also be reproved, etc.

 

[KennySe]

hello, everyone.

The below quote is post #15 of this thread.

This is directly from the website the same place you copied from beforeand I believe it flat states what the original doctrine was, I highlighted the part about 3Gods being persons
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
I left the link so any one else could go and read the entire section for themselves, THIS IS FROM THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD
I also enjoyed the part where they say NOTWITHSTANDING because it points to the fact that there is a problem with this Idea.

You say "This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD"

You are wrong. You cannot bold properly. Allow me.

"...yet there are not three [/u]Gods but one [/B]God."

If you still are unclear on the Catholic Church's Dogma of the Holy Trinity,
1)read the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.
2)Upon reading it, ask a Catholic priest if YOUR interpretation is what the Catholic Church teaches. (Check to see if you understand what you have read.)

Here are parts of the Catechism.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

[snip]

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

[snip]

83 Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
84 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.
85 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.

Now that you have read it, go to step 2. Ask a Catholic Priest to answer your questions. 1) How many Gods are in the Godhead? 2) How many Gods are in the Trinity?

 

[KennySe]

When you have 3 GODS Jehovah God, Jesus God and Holy Spirit God and then you say but they are only 1 GOD That to me says a Group of Gods like a company partnership.

There are not 3 Gods.

There is not a Group of Gods.

"...you say but they are only 1 GOD" Whoever "you" is, "you" is correct: the three Persons are only 1 God.

***

Christianity teaches there is only One God.

The Father is God.

The Son is God.

The Holy Spirit is God.

Not that these are 3 Gods, but they are The One God.

And if this is too hard to understand, congratulations for it does not make sense to the human senses.
Saint Augustine could not fully understand it; he could not fully explain it.
He accepted it on faith.

CHRISTIANITY accepts it on faith.

***********

 

[Der Alte]

Where does Elohim translate to three or trinity? It is more closely identified as a uniplural word, such as "family," which now consists of Father and Son.

Where has anyone ever said elohim translates to three or trinity? The most that has ever been said by any Trinitarian scholar is approximately what you said. "Elohim" is a plural word and indicates a plurality in the essence of God.

 

[Der Alte]

This is exactly what I am talking about I copied the paragraph directly from the article AND left the link so anyone could follow and check for to see if I changed anything which I did not!!!!!!!!!!!!! and still you attack because after words I said what I felt an except meant as far as my reading of it said.

And you admit you reinterpreted what the Cath. Ency. said to agree with your presuppositions. The article said "one God" you said "NOT one God" The article did NOT say "group", you said "group."

When you have 3 GODS Jehovah God, Jesus God and Holy Spirit God and then you say but they are only 1 GOD That to me says a Group of Gods like a company partnership.

There are NOT three Gods, there is ONE God. There is NOT a group of anything, there is ONE God.

Perhaps the reason you cannot understand this is because you are thinking in human terms. God is NOT a human and is NOT bound or restricted by any so-called laws of physics, reason, logic, or anything else. God can do anything He wants to do, any where He wants to do it, any time He wants to do it, any way He wants to do it. God exists outside of time so even our concept of time, as past, present, and future are meaningless when associated with God.

Christianity did NOT copy the Trinity from any culture because there was NO extant Trinity in any culture from which it could have been copied. There was NO pagan trinity or even a triad of deities. Christianity did NOT impose the Trinity on God but derived the Tri-Unity of God from His specific Theophanies, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[True Believer]

hello, everyone.

The below quote is post #15 of this thread.

You say "This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD"

You are wrong. You cannot bold properly. Allow me.

"...yet there are not three [/u]Gods but one [/B]God."

If you still are unclear on the Catholic Church's Dogma of the Holy Trinity,
1)read the Cathecism of the Catholic Church.
2)Upon reading it, ask a Catholic priest if YOUR interpretation is what the Catholic Church teaches. (Check to see if you understand what you have read.)

Here are parts of the Catechism.




Now that you have read it, go to step 2. Ask a Catholic Priest to answer your questions. 1) How many Gods are in the Godhead? 2) How many Gods are in the Trinity?

The article reads God the Father God the Son and God the HolySpirit all are being called God then it says YET they are not 3 Gods but One
Tell me what is wrong logicaly with this picture
This is why I can not believe the Trinity it makes no sense

 

[True Believer]

Maybe you need to read this part again
the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

 

[True Believer]

I like your reasoning Der Alter.You might just as well said it doesn't have to make sense.The trouble with that is that God is a God of Order not Disorder.

 

[Der Alte]

I like your reasoning Der Alter.You might just as well said it doesn't have to make sense.The trouble with that is that God is a God of Order not Disorder.

Which comes down to this is what you presupposed before you ever engaged in this discussion, You have ignored everything posted and come back to the same argument. I can teach a parrot to say, "God is a God of order not disorder." That does not mean the parrot is right or even understands what it is saying.

A man walking on water does not make any sense in human terms. A dead man rising from the dead, does not make sense in human terms. If so then let's see you do these two things. Dead is dead, a human body is heavier than water, that is order not disorder.

 

[Der Alte]

Maybe you need to read this part again

the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

Maybe you need to read this part again, "there are not three Gods but one God. God is infinite beyond times, beyond beginning or ending, not constrained by any limitation which affects finite humanity.

The thoughts and ways of God are higher than any human being. My God can do anything He wants to do, anyway He wants to do it, anywhere He wants to do it, anytime He wants to do it.

The JW god cannot. The god of the JW is limited by what JWs can conceive.

 

[True Believer]

Which comes down to this is what you presupposed before you ever engaged in this discussion, You have ignored everything posted and come back to the same argument. I can teach a parrot to say, "God is a God of order not disorder." That does not mean the parrot is right or even understands what it is saying.

A man walking on water does not make any sense in human terms. A dead man rising from the dead, does not make sense in human terms. If so then let's see you do these two things. Dead is dead, a human body is heavier than water, that is order not disorder.

As I have always said what I believe and post is from myself. I do not "Parrot " others sayings. Parroting would be posting quotes of others and posting their Ideas instead of your own Which is what you do you feel that proof is if someone else you agree with writes something it is proof but if someone else writes something I agree with it is somehow False. Quoting someone else must mean you can not think for yourself. Or you are so unsure of your convictions you need others approval to make it so.

 

[xsimmsx]

Jesus is the Father who walked in the flesh. You must see past the vail. Then you will get it.

 

[Peterson]

Here's a little something to think about from the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Baker Books (P.521), under the title Holy Spirit: "In the NT, the third person of the Trinity; in the OT, God's power."
O.T. "In the OT the spirit of the Lord (ruah, yhwh, to pneuma kyriou) is generally an expression of God's power, the extention of himself whereby he carries out many of his mighty deeds."
The last paragraph at the bottom of the page states: "The OT does not contain an idea of a semi-independent divine entity, the Holy Spirit."

 

[True Believer]

Jesus is the Father who walked in the flesh. You must see past the vail. Then you will get it.

What is the veil? You can't mean all of the scriptures were Jesus points to his Father as God or the one where his Father says from heaven "this is my son whom I approve or maybe the one where Jesus says he does nothing on his own but only by the power of his Father or maybe The one where he says not he but only the Father knows. Come on now be reasonable!

 

[rnmomof7]

I posted this on another thread.

Doc: Who said that I concluded that the writing of Novatian to be anti-trinitarian? He is not anti-social trinitarian, like the LDS, but anti-trinitarian post-Nicean trinity. He says:

Now that does not sound like the kind of trinity that I hear around these parts. They are one in unity not in persons. That is LDS doctrine if I have ever heard it.

Could some of you here tell me how this is similar and how this is different to your understanding of the Trinity.

Looking forward to your response.

Doc

Doc if Snows couplet is correct and as Man now is as god once was and man will be as god is now

And every god that exists progressed to godhood from being a man first.. Where did the first god come from?

As I understand your theology a spirit child must be born , then come to earth to get a body (necessary for godhood ) He must be an observant Mormon , He must be married . He will then go to the Celestial kingdom and He must later be resurrected to be united with the body .

He then waits for an intelligence to ask him to be a spirt parent ..He then "creates "his own new world and is god there.

As it is jesus as a spirit and physical child of god has completed all the requirements but is still sitting in council with the father.

Is he free to leave to be god to his own world?

will the holy spirit ever come to earth and get a body so that he can be a god some day?

 

[xsimmsx]

What is the veil? You can't mean all of the scriptures were Jesus points to his Father as God or the one where his Father says from heaven "this is my son whom I approve or maybe the one where Jesus says he does nothing on his own but only by the power of his Father or maybe The one where he says not he but only the Father knows. Come on now be reasonable!

The veil is Jesus's Flesh. The Father dwelt in the body of Jesus. Remember the prophecy and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel which being interpreted is God with Us. God was with us in the body of his dear Son Jesus Christ.



You have to be baptized into his body in his name to remove the veil. And when you do so you must do it with all of your heart, mind and might.

II Corinthians 3:14-16
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

I thought you said his flesh is the veil? Well yes I did it seperates us from God within.

Hebrews 10:20:
By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

But why did you say I had to be baptized in his name to remove the veil? Because then your inside his body and nothing seperates you from direct access to the Father O yeah except for your own flesh but that is another topic.

Galatians 3:27:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Isn't it Wonderful to hear the Truth

With Love,
Joshua

 

[Isaiah 53]

The veil is Jesus's Flesh. The Father dwelt in the body of Jesus. Remember the prophecy and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel which being interpreted is God with Us. God was with us in the body of his dear Son Jesus Christ.



You have to be baptized into his body in his name to remove the veil. And when you do so you must do it with all of your heart, mind and might.

II Corinthians 3:14-16
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

I thought you said his flesh is the veil? Well yes I did it seperates us from God within.

Hebrews 10:20:
By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

But why did you say I had to be baptized in his name to remove the veil? Because then your inside his body and nothing seperates you from direct access to the Father O yeah except for your own flesh but that is another topic.

Galatians 3:27:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Isn't it Wonderful to hear the Truth

With Love,
Joshua

If Modalism is correct then to whom did Jesus pray? Whom did Peter, James and John hear on the Mount of Transfiguration? Whom did John hear when he baptized Jesus and saw the Spirit land bodily upon Him? To whom was Jesus appealing to upon the cross when He asked, 'my God my God why have you forsaken me?"

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[xsimmsx]

If Modalism is correct then to whom did Jesus pray? Whom did Peter, James and John hear on the Mount of Transfiguration? Whom did John hear when he baptized Jesus and saw the Spirit land bodily upon Him? To whom was Jesus appealing to upon the cross when He asked, 'my God my God why have you forsaken me?"

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

Forget about using religous terms to describe what God has done. If it is modalism so be it it doesn;t matter what title you give to it. It is still accurate and direct. It is Truth. Jesus was literally the Son of God why because he was born and created through a woman by God. Because he was a man a body a vessel. But the difference between him and any other being is that he had the Spirit of God Living in him Because he was that Spirit. As far as his Identity was concerned he could speak as God or he could speak as the Son of God. Either way he was telling the truth. Remember we have one God the Father and no other. To make the claim that you are God at all is to claim that you are the Father. The problem a lot of people have is explaining the distinction between Father and Son. That doesn't however mean that Jesus is not the Father because according to his Spirit he is. According to his Flesh he is the Son of God. So the flesh was appealing to the Spirit that gave Life The father which is the Holy Spirit. If you think that the Father and the Holy Spirit are different then you are in error. remember the bible says that the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty. It also says that Jesus is conceived by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:20:
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, you son of David, fear not to take to you Mary your wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Anything that conceives something is the Father of that thing which it conceives. Therefore the Holy Ghost is The Father of Jesus. Therefore the Holy Ghost is God the Father. Now tell me this does that mean that Jesus has two Fathers? Of course not he has One Father which is God the Father who is a Spirit which is the Holy Ghost Which was one with the Son because he lived in the Son That kills The idea of a trinity. Remember the Bible Says We have One God, The Father.

Peace in Jesus Christ

 

[xsimmsx]

O I forgot to explain the Sign at his Baptism. And I will explain it simply that God is omnipresent. Meaning he can be at more than one place at one time and still be the same One God. So The Father our God was all over the place.