Trinity

[Doc T]

Der Alter: It appears you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one being God, whith three disctinct personas, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No orthodox Trinitarian church or school teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one person.

Doc: Thank you for catching my error. Sometimes the fingers type faster than the brain. That should have read "one substance (ousia)" not one person.

Der Alter:Here is the Nicene creeed, please show us where Novatian and the creed differ.

Doc: Show me where Novatian (or any of the pre-300 AD early christians) teaches that the Father and the Son are one substance (ousia).

 

[Isaiah 53]

27 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly
Teach There is Only One God

There are not a few ambiguous Biblical passages that teach that there is only one God, but many explicit passages that clearly declare this cardinal truth. Each of the following 27 passages explicitly teach that there is one — and only one — true and living God. The Mormon plurality of Gods doctrine (found most explicitly in the Pearl of Great Price/Book of Abraham 4-5) contradicts this fundamental biblical teaching.

Please note that the King James Version (used here) designates the Hebrew name Jehovah (or Yahweh) with "LORD" spelled with all letters capitalized; Adonai, meaning "Lord" or "Master," is designated by "Lord;" and "Elohim," is translated as "God." Thus, in Deut. 4:35, for example, the phrase "the LORD he is God," would be literally translated, "Jehovah, he is Elohim." (In those instances were Adonai is used as a compound with Jehovah, the latter term is spelled GOD, so that the compound name "Lord GOD" designates the Hebrew, "Adonai Jehovah").
​

1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

5. 1 KINGS 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

6. 2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

7. 2 KINGS 19:15 — And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

8. NEHEMIAH 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

9. PSALM 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

10. PSALM 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

11. ISAIAH 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

12. ISAIAH 43:10,11 — Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

13. ISAIAH 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

14. ISAIAH 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

15. ISAIAH 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

16. HOSEA 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

17. JOEL 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

18. ZECHARIAH 14:9 — And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

19. MARK 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

20. JOHN 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

21. ROMANS 3:30 — Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

22. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

23. GALATIANS 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

24. EPHESIANS 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

25. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

26. 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

27. JAMES 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Compiled by:
Institute for Religious Research
​

http://www.irr.org/mit/onegod.html​

 

[Doc T]

Isaiah 53, thank you for your list, but as a LDS, I accept those scriptures as true, and despite IRR assertion does not contradict LDS doctrine.

But they do not demonstrate that God and Christ are "one substance." That is what I asked for.

Doc

 

[Ben_Hur]

As long as one believes they should FULLY understand the Trinity, then they will never accept the orthodox christian view, verses, explanations, whatever.

The sad part is if you expect you should understand EVERYTHING about God, then you are committing a bit of arrogance that will separate you from God. Jesus said we are to be like children. Children are teachable. Children eventually accept the fact that they can't fully understand the "thoughts" and "ways" of their parents. If you truly believe in the LARGENESS of God and don't try to fit him in a box, then you can believe that you don't need to, and maybe are not even capable of, understanding everything about Him.

 

[Doc T]

As long as one believes they should FULLY understand the Trinity, then they will never accept the orthodox christian view, verses, explanations, whatever.

The sad part is if you expect you should understand EVERYTHING about God, then you are committing a bit of arrogance that will separate you from God. Jesus said we are to be like children. Children are teachable. Children eventually accept the fact that they can't fully understand the "thoughts" and "ways" of their parents. If you truly believe in the LARGENESS of God and don't try to fit him in a box, then you can believe that you don't need to, and maybe are not even capable of, understanding everything about Him.

Doc: Perhaps the most fundamental questions a religion must answer are those relating to the nature of God and man's relationship to Him. Jesus said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) In order to "know God" fully, one must also know about Him. As our Lord told the Samaritan woman, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship . . . ." (John 4:22)

The Prophet Joseph Smith claimed to have restored vital truths about God and man that had been lost for many centuries. However, some of these doctrines are controversial to the rest of the Christian world, and so this is exactly the area where Latter-day Saints are most often criticized by their Christian neighbors.

 

[Ben_Hur]

Knowing and studying Bill the mechanic doesn't help me know and understand Joe the barber.

 

[Doc T]

Knowing and studying Bill the mechanic doesn't help me know and understand Joe the barber.

Doc:And just because you sit in a garage doen't make you a Buick.

 

[True Believer]

I agree with this definition but I don't think this is quite how you worded it before. And maybe you can help me out here. Where exactly does this article say, "3 seperate persons acting as a group" and where does it say, "there is a problem with this Idea?"

And before you get all carried away, trying to make this article says what you want it to, anyone can make almost anything say what they want it to say by misquoting and quoting out-of-context. So just how ignorant do you think, or want us to think, the editors of the Cath. Ency. were?

I deliberatly made my statement seperate with bold type so readers would see it was not part of the site but my gist of what I read.I DID NOT MISQUOTE ANYTHING. it is a direct copy along with the link.
They used the term Godhead I see it as a group of 3 persons being god according to their writings that is all I said on the subject. I run into varying differences in what ones who say they believe the Trinity interprete it to be. Yours being one of them I simply posted the official Catholic rendering.

 

[True Believer]

The New Catholic Encyclopedia is still in copyright and thus is not available online. The Catholic Encyclopedia that is online at Newadvent is the 1912 edition.

Many anti-Trinitarian groups, such as JW, misquote and selectively quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia and other Trinitarian literature, trying to prove that Trinitarian sources support their views. For anyone who wants to use try to second hand quotes from their denominational literature to prove that the articles support your views. No it don't. Substantially the entire Trinity and Holy Spirit articles from the NCE are available at this link. So if you are going to quote it, get it right.

And just FYI I prefer to discuss resources which whoever is posting has read for themself, not second or third hand quotes from their denominational literature.

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-Catholic.htm#cath1975

This is getting ridicules! The JW society has nothing to do with the Advent site it is Catholic and it says it is the NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.
You are just using everything written to attack anyone who is a Jehovah's Witness because you have some grudge against the Society.
Anything written and copyrighted remains copyrighted.
Why go to a site other than the official site of the Knights of Columbus, Advent which is both run and supported by the Catholics, now that sounds like second and third hand information!

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter:Here is the Nicene creeed, please show us where Novatian and the creed differ.

Doc: Show me where Novatian (or any of the pre-300 AD early christians) teaches that the Father and the Son are one substance (ousia).

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I have not read as much Novatian as I have Justin, the fact that Novatian may not have used the term "ousia" is inconclusive. Novatian did NOT say that the Father and the Son were not of one substance.

Here is a passage from Justin where he clearly states that the Father and the Son were of the same substance, as fire from fire without cutting off.

Dialogue of Justin Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew [a.d. 110-165.]
Chapter CXXVIII.-The Word is Sent Not as an Inanimate Power, But as a Person Begotten of the Father's Substance.

"And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said." And do not suppose, sirs, that I am speaking superfluously when I repeat these words frequently: but it is because I know that some wish to anticipate these remarks, and to say that the power sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men); is called Glory, because He appears in a vision sometimes that cannot be borne; is called a Man, and a human being, because He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself.. . .

And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission [cutting off], as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325
​

 

[True Believer]

Now you must define substance. God is not a substance.Spirit and Flesh are substance.

 

[twhite982]

As long as one believes they should FULLY understand the Trinity, then they will never accept the orthodox christian view, verses, explanations, whatever.

The sad part is if you expect you should understand EVERYTHING about God, then you are committing a bit of arrogance that will separate you from God. Jesus said we are to be like children. Children are teachable. Children eventually accept the fact that they can't fully understand the "thoughts" and "ways" of their parents. If you truly believe in the LARGENESS of God and don't try to fit him in a box, then you can believe that you don't need to, and maybe are not even capable of, understanding everything about Him.

While I agree in part with what you've said, we shouldn't be satisfied with just drinking milk, just because the meat takes a little more effort, prayer, and studying. We should understand God the best we can with what we have available, but to imply there are too many things beyond our level of comprehension, so we shouldn't even try, to me is a cop-out.

TW

 

[Ben_Hur]

While I agree in part with what you've said, we shouldn't be satisfied with just drinking milk, just because the meat takes a little more effort, prayer, and studying. We should understand God the best we can with what we have available, but to imply there are too many things beyond our level of comprehension, so we shouldn't even try, to me is a cop-out.

TW

On the contrary, there are at least 4 topics worth of trying going on, and I'm sure you've looked into it even more than that outside of this forum. I'm guessing that you've come to the conclusion that since the traditional christian view of the Trinity is not understandable to you that you prefer the Mormon view, despite the problems it presents with polytheism.

 

[twhite982]

On the contrary, there are at least 4 topics worth of trying going on, and I'm sure you've looked into it even more than that outside of this forum. I'm guessing that you've come to the conclusion that since the traditional christian view of the Trinity is not understandable to you that you prefer the Mormon viewQUOTE]
Not at all.

 

[Peterson]

Isaiah 53,
You're right , and the scriptures you present, clearly show that there is only ONE God, the Father - not three gods, not three essences, not three coequal gods - one God, and one God only, the Father and his son Jesus Christ.
Here's another scripture: 1 John 2:22-24;
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
V. 23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Soin, hath the Father also.
V. 24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Ther is no possible way that one can construe a trinity, in whatever form, from any of these verses, or the ones that you quoted.

1 John 4:1; Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone into the world.
If there were many false prophets in John's day, they are everywhere today.

 

[Der Alte]

Now you must define substance. God is not a substance.Spirit and Flesh are substance.

I refuted your argument, you made from an uniformed position, now you are changing your argument. This is called the logical fallacy of "Not a true scotsman." And no I must not define anything. What God is Jesus is. In the beginning was the logoV, and the logoV was with [toward] God, and the logoV was God.

 

[Der Alte]

I deliberatly made my statement seperate with bold type so readers would see it was not part of the site but my gist of what I read.I DID NOT MISQUOTE ANYTHING. it is a direct copy along with the link.
They used the term Godhead I see it as a group of 3 persons being god according to their writings that is all I said on the subject. I run into varying differences in what ones who say they believe the Trinity interprete it to be. Yours being one of them I simply posted the official Catholic rendering.

No you did NOT “simply” post the Catholic rendering, you went on to reinterpret what the article said. The word “group” does NOT appear in the article you quoted. And you said , “not 1 GOD.” and the article says, “not three God but one God..” If you have trouble seeing the difference I have highlighted it in red.

THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD
I also enjoyed the part where they say NOTWITHSTANDING because it points to the fact that there is a problem with this Idea.

This is getting ridicules! The JW society has nothing to do with the Advent site it is Catholic and it says it is the NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.
You are just using everything written to attack anyone who is a Jehovah's Witness because you have some grudge against the Society.
Anything written and copyrighted remains copyrighted.
Why go to a site other than the official site of the Knights of Columbus, Advent which is both run and supported by the Catholics, now that sounds like second and third hand information!

You are only partly correct the JW has nothing to do with writing of the articles in the Catholic Encyclopedia but they have everything to do with misquoting or quoting out of context, or misinterpreting the articles as you have done.

”Why go to a site other than the official site of the Knights of Columbus, Advent which is both run and supported by the Catholics, now that sounds like second and third hand information!” I don’t even understand what this is talking about. I will explain one more time. If you quote the Catholic Encyclopedia, then quote it, NOT what some other source claims the C.E. says. I happen to know that the first quote supposedly quoted from the C.E. is misquoted in exactly the same way in certain denominational literature. And I posted more of the context of the article to show how it was misquoted.

 

[obediah001]

The Trinity is in the Bible starting with Genisis 1 In the begining God which is Elohim the plural word for God = trinity.

 

[Peterson]

Where does Elohim translate to three or trinity? It is more closely identified as a uniplural word, such as "family," which now consists of Father and Son.

 

[True Believer]

I refuted your argument, you made from an uniformed position, now you are changing your argument. This is called the logical fallacy of "Not a true scotsman." And no I must not define anything. What God is Jesus is. In the beginning was the logoV, and the logoV was with [toward] God, and the logoV was God.

and which arguement would that be since I see no corralation between my quote and this reply.IF you are refering to my arguement on John 1:1 my position has not changed. Maybe your perception of my position has changed