Trinity discussion with St Worm2

[klutedavid]

Hello Dartman.

Malachi 3:1
Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

Your explanation of this verse follows.

Yes. Both John and Jesus served Jehovah.

Are you saying the person identified in the verse above by the pronoun, 'me', is Jesus?

The temple is the Jew's temple. Jesus is a Jew.

Your not saying that Jesus is a literal descendant of David I hope?

You keep forgetting, Jesus simply CANNOT be Jehovah. We've already established that.

If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father!

 

[Dartman]

Hello Dartman.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

Are you saying the person identified in the verse above by the pronoun, 'me', is Jesus?

No, it's Jehovah/YHVH God, Jesus' Father, Jesus' God.

Your not saying that Jesus is a literal descendant of David I hope?

Of course I am!! Have you even READ the Bible???
Matt 1:1 record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Acts 2:30 (DAVID) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 13:22-23 And when He had removed him, He raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also He gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all My will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

By the way, this is only a PARTIAL list!

You keep forgetting, Jesus simply CANNOT be Jehovah. We've already established that.

If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father!

So? Do you think Jesus is THE FATHER???
Jesus did NOT say, if you have seen me, you have seen God.
Which heresy do you accept, "oneness" or "trinity"?

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Dartman.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

I asked you who the pronoun (me) in the verse above refers to.

No, it's Jehovah/YHVH God, Jesus' Father, Jesus' God.

The way is prepared by John for YHWH, that is what the verse states.

Thus John prepares the way for YHWH to arrive at His temple.

Of course I am!! Have you even READ the Bible???

We are discussing whether Jesus is a descendant of King David.

You say the Bible states emphatically that Jesus is a descendant of David.

Well now Dartman, I will demand that you explain the following passage. This passage is on this very subject, the genealogy of Jesus.

Matthew 22
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? 45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

So? Do you think Jesus is THE FATHER???

Jesus is the Word, the Word came from the Father, the Word became Jesus and was the author of life. They are both the same God, co-equal, eternal.

Jesus did NOT say, if you have seen me, you have seen God.

That's right Dartman, Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father!

Which heresy do you accept, "oneness" or "trinity"?

Three identities in one God, hence I confess the trinity.

 

[Dartman]

Hello Dartman.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

I asked you who the pronoun (me) in the verse above refers to.

The way is prepared by John for YHWH, that is what the verse states.

Yes.

Thus John prepares the way for YHWH to arrive at His temple.

No, John prepared the way for Jehovah, to fulfill His promise of the Christ (haa-Adown), that Israel was seeking, who would come to the Jewish temple, since Jesus is a Jew, it's his temple too.

We are discussing whether Jesus is a descendant of King David.

You say the Bible states emphatically that Jesus is a descendant of David.

LOL ... Yeah, I pretty much proved THAT beyond any reasonable doubt!

Well now Dartman, I will demand that you explain the following passage. This passage is on this very subject, the genealogy of Jesus.

Matthew 22
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? 45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Yes? And your point?? Are you like the Pharisees, and cannot figure this one out?
If so, when I explain it, you are going to be ... no, sadly you probably won't...
You see, the PUZZLE for the Pharisees was .... they refused to accept that a descendant OF a great man, might out RANK the great man.
So, David calling his own descendant "my Lord", REALLY upset their mindset.
AND, if Jesus REALLY was the Christ, then he truly out ranked David .... (which he most certainly does) ... which made him THEIR superior ..... which SERIOUSLY jepordized their position!!!
[/quote]
Jesus is the Word, the Word came from the Father, the Word became Jesus and was the author of life. They are both the same God, co-equal, eternal.[/quote]Since this is merely opinion, I can counter it easily with .... nope.
However, since your statement is merely a restatement of standard trinitarian boilerplate.... I can do WAY better than countering it .... I can actually show the REAL "Jesus" being PREACHED;
Acts 2:29-36 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

That's right Dartman, Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father!

Three identities in one God, hence I confess the trinity.

Of course Jesus said it, that isn't the question.
The question is, if seeing Jesus actually EQUALS seeing the Father, then how can you claim "no one has seen the Father"??? Jesus just said they did .... in your weird theory.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Dartman.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

John the Baptist prepared the way for YHWH.

No, John prepared the way for Jehovah, to fulfill His promise of the Christ (haa-Adown), that Israel was seeking, who would come to the Jewish temple, since Jesus is a Jew, it's his temple too.

Incorrect and convoluted Dartman, check the Old Testament text.

Isaiah 40:3
A voice is calling, clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

It is a smooth path for the Lord, a highway for our God.

LOL ... Yeah, I pretty much proved THAT beyond any reasonable doubt!

Nonsense, Jesus did not have a human Father, your genealogy is in tatters.

Now for your reply to the text.

Matthew 22
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? 45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Here is what you said.

Yes? And your point?? Are you like the Pharisees, and cannot figure this one out?
If so, when I explain it, you are going to be ... no, sadly you probably won't...
You see, the PUZZLE for the Pharisees was .... they refused to accept that a descendant OF a great man, might out RANK the great man.

Do you seriously think that a great man out ranks the greatest of men?

Jesus was never the son of David, Jesus did not have a human Father. The Pharisees assumed Joseph was the father of Jesus, just like everyone else assumed. The Pharisees were wrong of course, Jesus was the Son of God and not a direct descendant of David.

How many times do I need to remind you Dartman, Jesus was not the product of human genealogy.

So, David calling his own descendant "my Lord", REALLY upset their mindset.
AND, if Jesus REALLY was the Christ, then he truly out ranked David .... (which he most certainly does) ... which made him THEIR superior ..... which SERIOUSLY jepordized their position!!!

Incorrect, you cannot ever say that Jesus was the natural descendant of David, that is impossible. You know that Joseph was not his father, yet you persist. You know that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, yet you persist.

John 6:62
What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

Jesus came from above, not from the lineage of Joseph!

Jesus is the Word, the Word came from the Father, the Word became Jesus and was the author of life. They are both the same God, co-equal, eternal.

Since this is merely opinion, I can counter it easily with .... nope.[/Quote]
Jesus was the author of life and that is a fact.

However, since your statement is merely a restatement of standard trinitarian boilerplate.... I can do WAY better than countering it .... I can actually show the REAL "Jesus" being PREACHED;

Your quotation refers to the lineage of the flesh and not of the Spirit. Do not rely on the early observation criteria when assessing the Holy One of Israel. Any attempt to define the true identity of the Holy One of Israel, must use the entire Bible. Jesus was YHWH.

 

[Dartman]

John prepared the way for Jehovah, to fulfill His promise of the Christ (haa-Adown), that Israel was seeking, who would come to the Jewish temple, since Jesus is a Jew, it's his temple too..

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

John the Baptist prepared the way for YHWH.

Incorrect and convoluted Dartman, check the Old Testament text.

Isaiah 40:3
A voice is calling, clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

It is a smooth path for the Lord, a highway for our God.

Correct, that's what I said.
So, what is it you think is "incorrect"??

Nonsense, Jesus did not have a human Father, your genealogy is in tatters.

We agree Jesus did not have a human biological father. Jesus had a biological human mother, who conceived because God's power caused her to conceive. Jesus was of Mary's genetics, and therefore Jesus was of David, Judah, Abraham and Eve.

Now for your reply to the text.

Matthew 22
41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: 42 “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’? 45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” 46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Here is what you said.

Yes? And your point?? Are you like the Pharisees, and cannot figure this one out?
If so, when I explain it, you are going to be ... no, sadly you probably won't...
You see, the PUZZLE for the Pharisees was .... they refused to accept that a descendant OF a great man, might out RANK the great man.

Do you seriously think that a great man out ranks the greatest of men?

You have it upside down. I seriously think/believe that the greatest of men is a descendant of many great men... exactly like the Scriptures state.
You have come to the conclusion, for whatever reason, that the Scriptures CANNOT be correct regarding Jesus as David's descendant, MERELY because Jewish culture wouldn't recognize Mary's genetics.
You are wrong.

 

[gadar perets]

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I [Father YHWH] will send my messenger [John the Baptist], and he shall prepare the way before me [Father YHWH]: and the Lord [Yeshua], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he [Yeshua] shall come, saith YHWH of hosts [Father YHWH].
3:2 But who may abide the day of his [Yeshua's] coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he [Yeshua] shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto YHWH [Father YHWH] an offering in righteousness.
​

It is obvious that verse one makes a distinction between Father YHWH ("I", "me") and Yeshua ("the Lord", "his", "he").

Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
​

Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah, Luke 3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Isaiah 40:4 & 5. It says, "As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of [YHWH], make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of [YHWH]." "Prepare ye the way of YHWH" does not mean, "Move out of the way because YHWH is coming." And so when Yeshua comes they believe he is YHWH.

How was "the way" to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work? John 4:34 says, "Yeshua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish his work." Almighty YHWH appointed His Son Yeshua to finish His work. Yeshua was YHWH's instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. Yeshua is the "Messenger of the Covenant," "the servant of YHWH," and "the salvation of YHWH." John 14:6 calls Yeshua "the way." He is "the way of YHWH;" the means through which YHWH will finish His work.

 

[miknik5]

Yeshua taught us who the "only true God" is in John 17:3, his Father. He excluded himself in that prayer. Yet, you are making the Son the only true God, thereby denying the Father. I don't know exactly what you believe, but if you believe the Son gave the Ten Commandments and that the Son parted the Red Sea and that the Son did most of the miracles in the OT and that the Son is the "YHWH" of the OT, then you are denying the Father.

I believe HE and THE FATHER are ONE


Just as HE said

And I also believe ALL of what HE said regarding the time would come when we would pray in HIS NAME and HE would not have to pray THE FATHER for us

 

[gadar perets]

I believe HE and THE FATHER are ONE


Just as HE said

And I also believe ALL of what HE said regarding the time would come when we would pray in HIS NAME and HE would not have to pray THE FATHER for us

I believe he and his Father are one as well. That does not mean they are one and the same being/person. It means they are one in purpose, unity, etc. Yeshua told us exactly what kind of oneness they have. It is the same kind of oneness that all believers are to have (John 17:11, 22).

 

[miknik5]

I believe he and his Father are one as well. That does not mean they are one and the same being/person. It means they are one in purpose, unity, etc. Yeshua told us exactly what kind of oneness they have. It is the same kind of oneness that all believers are to have (John 17:11, 22).

No

Did you come forth from GOD and into the world?
Can you claim that you are the bread of life who came down from heaven to give life to the world?
Can you claim that whoever has seen you has seen THE FATHER?

 

[gadar perets]

No

Did you come forth from GOD and into the world?
Can you claim that you are the bread of life who came down from heaven to give life to the world?
Can you claim that whoever has seen you has seen THE FATHER?

No, I can't. What does that have to do with Yeshua's definition of being one? His words in John 17 are undeniable.

 

[miknik5]

No, I can't. What does that have to do with Yeshua's definition of being one? His words in John 17 are undeniable.

So are HIS WORDS in
John 16
John 6
John 14

 

[gadar perets]

So are HIS WORDS in
John 16
John 6
John 14

Yes, they are undeniable as well, but you will need to be more specific than that.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, they are undeniable as well, but you will need to be more specific than that.[/QUOTE

No

Did you come forth from GOD and into the world? (John 16)
Can you claim that you are the bread of life who came down from heaven to give life to the world? (John 6)
Can you claim that whoever has seen you has seen THE FATHER? (John 14)

 

[gadar perets]

Again, what do those verses have to do with Yeshua's definition of being one? John 14 might be relevant when misunderstood. When Philip was looking upon Yeshua, he was NOT seeing the Father since no man has ever seen the Father (God). He was seeing the character image/express image of the Father. An image is not the original. You can look at a very realistic painting of fruit, but it is only an image of the original fruit.

 

[miknik5]

Again, what do those verses have to do with Yeshua's definition of being one? John 14 might be relevant when misunderstood. When Philip was looking upon Yeshua, he was NOT seeing the Father since no man has ever seen the Father (God). He was seeing the character image/express image of the Father. An image is not the original. You can look at a very realistic painting of fruit, but it is only an image of the original fruit.

Again, Who dares to say that if one looks at them they see GOD?
Who dares to say, have I been with you this long and you don't know me....

(understanding that these had asked HIM to show them THE FATHER..understanding THE FATHER to be GOD)

 

[miknik5]

The promise of the FATHER which CHRIST discusses with HIS DISCIPLES in the upper room


Namely, CHRIST telling them that when THE COMFORTER comes, whom HE will send from the FATHER, HE will lead you to all truth

HE will take from ME and give to you

All That is THE FATHER's is MINE
This is why I say HE will take from what is mine and give to you

I will not leave you as orphans

I will come to you


(Can you explain this as well)

 

[miknik5]

Again, what do those verses have to do with Yeshua's definition of being one? John 14 might be relevant when misunderstood. When Philip was looking upon Yeshua, he was NOT seeing the Father since no man has ever seen the Father (God). He was seeing the character image/express image of the Father. An image is not the original. You can look at a very realistic painting of fruit, but it is only an image of the original fruit.

GOD has given us the light of knowledge of HIS SON...the veil has been removed and we see the glory of GOD in the face of JESUS CHRIST

Anyone who has seen THE SON has seen THE FATHER

And CHRIST alone has all authority to show/teach/reveal/declare THE FATHER because HE came forth from GOD

HE is the visible image of the invisible GOD...the exact representation of HIS being and the full radiance of HIS GLORY

For it pleased GOD that in HIM the fullness might dwell

 

[gadar perets]

Again, Who dares to say that if one looks at them they see GOD?

None, since we are not sinless like Yeshua. That was one aspect of him that made him the express image of the Father. He was not sinless because he was the Father.

Who dares to say, have I been with you this long and you don't know me....understanding that these had asked HIM to show them THE FATHER..understanding THE FATHER to be GOD

Yeshua had been showing them the Father throughout his life by the way he lived. We are to show people Messiah by the life we live. I believe Paul came the closest to being Messiah-like, but that did not make him Yeshua.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.​

There were plenty of people that saw Yeshua prior to John 6 and yet, not one of them ever saw the Father. Yet you say Philip saw the Father because you misinterpret the verses in question.

 

[gadar perets]

The promise of the FATHER which CHRIST discusses with HIS DISCIPLES in the upper room


Namely, CHRIST telling them that when THE COMFORTER comes, whom HE will send from the FATHER, HE will lead you to all truth

HE will take from ME and give to you

All That is THE FATHER's is MINE
This is why I say HE will take from what is mine and give to you

I will not leave you as orphans

I will come to you


(Can you explain this as well)

Yes. The Holy Spirit comes to us from the Father through the Son. That means the Son s NOT the Father, but receives from the Father to give to us.