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Trinity discussion with St Worm2

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Dartman, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Are you suggesting that you could if it were given you?

    There's nothing more to say
    You have said enough
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  2. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    You are not THE CHRIST
    And there is no other
    You are very deceived in thinking that you even could be if it were at all possible


    But it isn't possible
    And it NEVER could be possible
     
  3. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course not, we both know I never claimed to be, we both know you diverted the topic to this ludicrous point, simply to avoid answering my questions.
    Stop wasting our time.
     
  4. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Gadar Perets.

    Your reply contained the following points.
    The scripture does not testify to your interpretation. The scripture declares that Jesus came down from above. Jesus had His own will that He even suppressed in order to do His Father's will.

    John 6
    62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

    Jesus came from heaven, Jesus ascended back to the place of His origin, i.e., heaven, where He was before. Whereas you say that Jesus only existed in Bethlehem, if that were true, then, Jesus would be going to heaven for the first time. But Jesus was there before!

    John 3:13
    No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

    Jesus came down from heaven, Jesus descended to earth, Jesus did not first exist at Bethlehem. Your distorting the scripture with your interpretation.

    John 3:31
    He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth.

    Jesus was from above, Jesus was not from Adam or from Bethlehem.

    John 6
    38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

    Jesus had His own will and His own thoughts, Jesus suppressed His own will in order to implement His Father's will. If Jesus was a personified thought, he would not have a will of his own.

    John 8
    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

    Jesus existed before Abraham existed, Jesus did not start His existence at Bethlehem.

    John 13
    3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God.

    Jesus came from heaven, from God, not from Bethlehem, Jesus was returning to heaven. He came forth from God and was returning back to God. This is a round trip not a one way trip that Jesus follows.

    John 16
    28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.

    Jesus came from the Father, Jesus was sent, Jesus did not come from Bethlehem.

    Romans 1:3
    Concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh.

    Jesus was born of a descendant of David, not the descendant of Mary. Before Mary even existed, Jesus in fact existed.
    Yes He did, Jesus partook of the flesh.

    Hebrews 2:14
    Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same.
    Incorrect gadar perets, Mary was only a surrogate mother, found to be with that child. A child that did not belong to her, a King that was not from her. Jesus was without biological Father or Mother, no genealogy to speak of.
     
  5. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    You couldn't say it
     
  6. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Here is the answer you need sir
    Since it appears you think that any other could be the CHRIST and HE is no different than any other:

    JESUS came not only to "show us THE FATHER" but to model for every other son and daughter the exact relationship we, as children of GOD are supposed to have with THE FATHER who is in heaven


    If the cup passed, we'd be lost and still dead in our sins

    And HIS crying out in all things by supplication and prayer is a model of what we too are called to during our sufferings


    Cry out to HIM
    And anyone and everyone who calls on the name of THE LORD, shall be saved


    It doesn't work the same way for just any or every other supposed man who somehow thinks he is a prophet

    More than he should have known himself to be A WITNESS of JESUS to a lost world
     
  7. Forgive 70 times 7

    Forgive 70 times 7 New Member

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    1 John 5:7 is one of the best verses talking about trinity , however because of that devils usually remove this from new versions of Bible , you would need to go to KJV to this .

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
  8. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    Thank you

    But even 1 John 5:6 should have been sufficient

    This is HE who came not by "water" only

    One could tie that "water" back to John 4 to see if they can make a right judgement about what "water" is being discussed
     
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    It is significant that you would pick a verse invented by trinitarians, as "one of the best".
    I would go even farther, and say it is the only.
     
  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and so was EVERY prophet;
    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    John 1:6-7 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

    Yes, Jesus FREQUENTLY told the Jews, in parabolic language, that he "came down from heaven".

    This statement contradicts the Scriptures.
    Luke SPECIFICALLY lists Adam as Jesus' forefather, AND Scripture REPEATEDLY states Jesus is "of the seed of David", and is Abraham's "seed" (Gal 3). Genetically Jesus IS a Jew, of the tribe of Judah, a direct descendant of David, according to Paul's gospel (2 Tim 2:8)
    Jesus WAS born, "came forth unto" Jehovah, in Bethlehem (Luke 1, Matt 2:1, Micah 5:2)

    Of course Jesus had his own spirit, will, and thoughts, which he subjected to his God's spirit, will and thoughts. Jesus stated plainly, "My Father is greater than I", and "Let Thy will be done, and NOT mine". So does EVERY human! You reasoning is flawed. This fact contradicts the trinitarian tenet of "co-equallity". This fact in NO WAY contradicts Jesus ONLY existing, prior to Bethlehem, as a promise, a plan in his God's mind.

    Jer 1:4-5 Now the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Of course! Just read Gen 3:15! Jesus IS there! He is a promise to Eve!
    Of course Jesus didn't literally exist before Bethlehem, but he clearly existed as God's promised Christ before creation.
     
  11. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    No more prophets
    Only witnesses who hold to and will testify of THE ONE TESTIMONY
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Sorry for the late reply. I was not notified that someone replied.

    I did not say Yeshua did not come down from heaven. He "existed" in the mind of his Father YHWH. At the appointed time, YHWH turned His plan of salvation that existed in His mind into reality by speaking His Son into existence in Mary's womb.

    John 17:8 reads; "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me." The Greek word "exerchomai" translated "came out" specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yeshua existed "inside" of YHWH in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the "loins of his father" before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father YHWH). While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an "inside," that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too, is figurative and equates with the mind of YHWH.

    There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has "loins." Nor am I suggesting Yeshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). YHWH is Spirit. His Holy Spirit "came upon" Miriam and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.

    Luke 1:35 says, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

    Yeshua declared this truth in John 16:27-30 as well. "For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God [YHWH] . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God [YHWH]."


    This verse does not say he "clothed" himself. It simply means he partook/shared flesh just as every other human being does. We did not clothe ourselves in flesh and neither did he. However, we were both clothed in flesh by our Creator, Almighty YHWH.

    If she was only a surrogate mother, then Yeshua could not be from the lineage of David. He would be a spirit being from outerspace put inside her womb with no lineage to David. If he had no genealogy to speak of, then you are saying neither NT genealogy belongs to Mary.

    The NT tell us Yeshua was "conceived". Mary was pregnant with a child developing in her womb from her egg that was fertilized.
     
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Psalm 65, Numbers 6:2 Supporter

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    It just occurred to me in reading the above post that of course having that lineage to the throne of David was absolutely essential for Jesus. But, Christ in His Risen state is said to be like the lineage of Melchezedec. Mary was the mother of Jesus but the bible says in Hebrews that Christ has no mother or father, no lineage. There is no mother or father of God.
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Hebrews does not say Yeshua is without father or mother or lineage. That was written concerning Melchizedek who was made like unto the Son of God in that he has a continual priesthood. In fact, Hebrews 7:14 traces Yeshua's lineage from Judah;

    "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood."​
     
  15. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Psalm 65, Numbers 6:2 Supporter

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    Yes, now that I think about it, sorry just waking up, He is there for the specific purpose of running interference with the Father to save us from the Father's wrath. His priesthood is the better priesthood to accomplish that which could not otherwise be accomplished by shadows. We need someone like Melchezedec in that Christ's reign is of peace and rightiousness , without beginning or end.

    Me needs coffee lol
     
  16. miknik5

    miknik5 "Let not your heart be troubled"

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    What do you think is meant by 2 John 1:7?
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The comparison to Melchezedec is regarding 2 similarities;
    1) Both Melchezedec and Jesus are NOT of the tribe of Levi.
    2) Both Melchezedec and Jesus ALSO are Kings, Melchezedec about 4,000 years ago, Jesus when he returns.

    No, that's discussing Melchezedec. AND, it isn't saying he didn't have a mother or a father at ALL ... it is indicating he didn't have any LINEAGE that qualified him to be "high priest".
    Absolutely true .... which is yet ANOTHER proof that Jesus is NOT God.
     
  18. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    It means exactly what it says.
    A classic example is the Jews, who reject Jesus as the messiah.
     
  19. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Psalm 65, Numbers 6:2 Supporter

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    How do you explain that in eternity all things are handed over to the Father in the light of what is said about the 1000 yr reign of Christ?
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    You quoted the ASV:

    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.​

    False teachers, most likely Gnostics which held varying beliefs about Messiah, were teaching that Messiah Yeshua was not a literal flesh and blood man. Some Gnostics believed Messiah was the embodiment of God who became man to bring gnosis (knowledge) to the earth, while others denied that God came in the flesh, claiming Yeshua was a human who attained divinity through gnosis. As I understand it, both Gnostic variations were wrong. God (Father YHWH) did not become a man and Yeshua did not become divine through gnosis (knowledge).

    I believe John was warning believers to not believe false teachers that denied Yeshua came as a literal flesh and blood man.
     
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