Transparency

[DamianWarS]

Yes, I believe that man is the measure of all things

then this is your bias but if we are going to discuss "what if's...." then you need to lay down your bias and begin to frame your world like there is a God

Any God worthy of our devotion would put us ahead of Himself - just like a human parent places his/her child first

that's Irrelevant. the concept of God is innately worthy. again you need to lay down your bias, you're answering the question like there is no God, answer it like there is a God.

Irrelevant

Will you praise me for pulling you out of your burning house even after discovering that it was I who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire?

That God gives us Heaven does not make up for God making life on earth a living hell

A good and just and loving God worthy of our devotion would never, ever cause us needless harm!

goodness and justice need to be evaluated on a larger picture and is not measured by your closed-off world. in a world where sin has its day goodness and justice will prevail in the end. but how many times you stub your toe in the meantime is the irrelevant part. you're looking at this like God owes you something, he doesn't yet he still gives. in that mindset, we owe him all.

 

[topher694]

Not really...

Problem
Solution
Application of solution to problem

This, in a nutshell, is Christianity

What is this strange compulsion to pretend that the faith is somehow more?


Disagree

These two things are one in the same!
Both are centered on Christ

There is no such thing as a "view on Christianity" apart from Jesus Christ
AND
there is no such thing as a Christian for whom Jesus Christ is not the most important thing


My goal, ultimately, is to disavow you of a harmful belief


In terms of differentiating between right and wrong - yes
My morality is vastly superior to that of God
{as is the morality of most every person on earth}


If He wants me to regard Him as morally virtuous - yes, He does owe it to me to behave virtuously

If He wants me to place my trust in Him - yes, He does owe it to me to explain Himself to me


I don't recall saying that!
What I suggested is that I know more about Christianity than you, yourself, do

If you'll recall, I asserted that there is nothing more important to a Christian than following Christ and you claimed that I am wrong!!!

I don't imagine that there is a single Christian who will agree with you over me...



Nope
Like I said, I came save you from a harmful belief


Nope
I came to save you from a harmful belief


Oh, do tell - what is the 3rd possible reason that you think might have led me here?

Wow, the hubris and self delusion on display here is impressive

 

[BeyondET]

Scripture describes a global event wherein the entire human race {sans Noah & co} are consciously and purposefully wiped out by God

And will happen again total wipe out of the human race

 

[Treeplanter]

then this is your bias but if we are going to discuss "what if's...." then you need to lay down your bias and begin to frame your world like there is a God



that's Irrelevant. the concept of God is innately worthy. again you need to lay down your bias, you're answering the question like there is no God, answer it like there is a God.



goodness and justice need to be evaluated on a larger picture and is not measured by your closed-off world. in a world where sin has its day goodness and justice will prevail in the end. but how many times you stub your toe in the meantime is the irrelevant part. you're looking at this like God owes you something, he doesn't yet he still gives. in that mindset, we owe him all.

1. Why is it my responsibility to lay aside a bias of "no God", but not your responsibility to lay aside a "God exists" bias?

2. I believe my worldview is perfectly consistent with the possibility of God existing anyway!

2A. Why couldn't God have created us as the measure of all things?
2B. Why couldn't God put us ahead of Himself?
2C. Why couldn't God refrain from the infliction of needless harm?

 

[Treeplanter]

Wow, the hubris and self delusion on display here is impressive

Is it due to an inability to address what I have actually said that you resort to an unnecessarily disparaging assessment of my character?

 

[Treeplanter]

And will happen again total wipe out of the human race

Then why did you say:
"Well I’m on the thinking of a local event not a global event, Hebrew language is quite interesting"
in post #87?

You seem to be all over the place...

 

[BeyondET]

Then why did you say:
"Well I’m on the thinking of a local event not a global event, Hebrew language is quite interesting"
in post #87?

You seem to be all over the place...

I was being sarcastic, I apologize that was rude of me. Please forgive me my friend

 

[DamianWarS]

1. Why is it my responsibility to lay aside a bias of "no God", but not your responsibility to lay aside a "God exists" bias?

because it's in response to your challenge on God

2. I believe my worldview is perfectly consistent with the possibility of God existing anyway!

except that you seem to blame this possibility for the suffering of this world refusing to allow God to operate as God. so in your "possibility" you make it impossible for God to exist because you reject the foundational concepts of God. What you create instead is a god that can only fail.

2A. Why couldn't God have created us as the measure of all things?

because that would be a contradiction. If God is God, then he is innately the measure of all things. You seem to want a God that bows down to his creation. In Christian understand God sent his son to be humiliated by the world to save the world. But this wasn't for the glory of man, it was so that man could experience God's glory.

2B. Why couldn't God put us ahead of Himself?

again, that would be a contradiction. if God is God everything is created for his purpose and glory, anything else God would cease to be God.

2C. Why couldn't God refrain from the infliction of needless harm?

the concept of God demands complete perfection, anything else would be less than God. So in that space, every action God does is also perfect and without flaw. How you describe these actions in ways that show God as less is your interpretation but doesn't actually change anything about God. an action of "infliction of needless harm" is imperfect. "needless" for example shows that God acts arbitrarily and without purpose which would disqualify him from being God. Your arguments are flawed and bias because they judge God as though you have already rejected God.

the thing is it's a contradiction to say God is evil because God is incapable of evil as he is the definition of good. If you say God is evil it means either you misunderstand who God is, or you misunderstand what evil is.

 

[topher694]

Is it due to an inability to address what I have actually said that you resort to an unnecessarily disparaging assessment of my character?

I think it is a very fair assessment when you insist you know more about Christianity than an ordained pastor. Plus, the reasons you gave for posting are not the real reasons anyway.

 

[Treeplanter]

I think it is a very fair assessment when you insist you know more about Christianity than an ordained pastor. Plus, the reasons you gave for posting are not the real reasons anyway.

Let's put it to a vote, shall we?

Who knows more about Christianity?

The person who says that following Christ is the most important thing
or
the person who says that following Christ is NOT the most important thing?


See my new thread titled: Is Christ The Most Important Thing Or Not?

 

[topher694]

Let's put it to a vote, shall we?

Who knows more about Christianity?

The person who says that following Christ is the most important thing
or
the person who says that following Christ is NOT the most important thing?


See my new thread titled: Is Christ The Most Important Thing Or Not?

Except I didn't say that. You said I did. I explicitly said God was the most important thing to me. What I have said repeatedly is that is not the only critically important thing, which you just dismiss and go about declaring you know better.

It's seriously silly. It's the equivalent of you saying you know more about being a doctor than actual doctors simply because you know the hippocratic oath.

 

[Treeplanter]

because it's in response to your challenge on God

That's not true

Your "God exists" bias exists independently of my "No God" bias

except that you seem to blame this possibility for the suffering of this world refusing to allow God to operate as God.

Not true

I do not blame God for the suffering of the world - I blame God for consciously and purposefully inflicting needless harm

so in your "possibility" you make it impossible for God to exist because you reject the foundational concepts of God. What you create instead is a god that can only fail.

Not true

God can exist in any way, shape, and form that He chooses to

Unfortunately for us, God chooses to exist as a being who sometimes consciously and purposefully chooses to inflict needless harm upon His creation

If God is God, then he is innately the measure of all things.

If God is God then He can choose to elevate us

In Christian understand God sent his son to be humiliated by the world to save the world. But this wasn't for the glory of man, it was so that man could experience God's glory.

Not true

God's offer of salvation is for HIS OWN benefit - not our's

God saves us so that His name be glorified
It is for HIS OWN GLORY

an action of "infliction of needless harm" is imperfect.

Correct

And this is what God does

God can achieve any and every end He desires by any means that He desires

When God chooses to achieve an end by means of 1st inflicting harm - the harm, by definition, is needless because God was not required or forced to inflict harm

God could have produced the exact same end result WITHOUT causing harm in the process!

Needless...

the thing is it's a contradiction to say God is evil because God is incapable of evil as he is the definition of good.

I reject this

Our actions dictate whether we are good or evil

God's actions, sometimes, are evil

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus Christ, Himself, begs to differ!

Matthew 22:36-38

I don’t think when he said yes you are wrong was referring exactly to following Christ not being the most important thing fir a Christian but probably more towards the conversation you were having.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, I am very much talking about the Christian God - the same one described in scripture

I may not fully comprehend what all perfection entails, but I can easily see that God, as presented in the bible, falls far short of it!

There is no theory under which the conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm can be classified as "perfect"

God, according to scripture, consciously and purposefully inflicted needless harm
EX: God drowned innocent babies when He didn't have to

Your looking at death from a nonbeliever’s perspective not from a believer’s perspective or God’s perspective. What is death from God’s perspective? It’s a relocation of someone from one place to another.

 

[Treeplanter]

I don’t think when he said yes you are wrong was referring exactly to following Christ not being the most important thing fir a Christian but probably more towards the conversation you were having.

If he didn't intend to suggest that following Jesus is not the most important thing then he could have simply said so and the issue would have resolved

Instead, he decided to respond with a mocking
"Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?"
when I pointed out to him that Jesus, Himself, tells us that loving God is the
FIRST AND GREATEST commandment
and
went on to call me self-delusional

 

[BNR32FAN]

If he didn't intend to suggest that following Jesus is not the most important thing then he could have simply said so and the issue would have resolved

Instead, he decided to respond with a mocking
"Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?"
when I pointed out to him that Jesus, Himself, tells us that loving God is the
FIRST AND GREATEST commandment
and
went on to call me self-delusional

He did say that it was taken out of context.

 

[Treeplanter]

Your looking at death from a nonbeliever’s perspective not from a believer’s perspective or God’s perspective. What is death from God’s perspective? It’s a relocation of someone from one place to another.

It may be that death and going to Heaven is infinitely better than what we are experiencing now, but a wonderful end does not justify lousy means

To be ripped away from this earth and the only life that we have known {regardless of however flawed it may be} is still a harmful thing and ending up in a better place doesn't erase the infliction of harm

 

[BNR32FAN]

It may be that death and going to Heaven is infinitely better than what we are experiencing now, but a wonderful end does not justify lousy means

To be ripped away from this earth and the only life that we have known {regardless of however flawed it may be} is still a harmful thing and ending up in a better place doesn't erase the infliction of harm

That’s an opinion based on ignorance of what is to come. You have to remember that God is omniscient and omnipresent and knows exactly what those people would’ve preferred.

 

[Treeplanter]

That’s an opinion based on ignorance of what is to come. You have to remember that God is omniscient and omnipresent and knows exactly what those people would’ve preferred.

Are you seriously claiming that a baby drowned in the Flood was grateful to have been made to endure the pain and terror of drowning and prefers drowning, as a means of conveyance, to any number of peaceful and pain free trips to Heaven?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you seriously claiming that a baby drowned in the Flood was grateful to have been made to endure the pain and terror of drowning and prefers drowning, as a means of conveyance, to any number of peaceful and pain free trips to Heaven?

I would be.