Transparency

[2PhiloVoid]

No, I am very much talking about the Christian God - the same one described in scripture

I may not fully comprehend what all perfection entails, but I can easily see that God, as presented in the bible, falls far short of it!

There is no theory under which the conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm can be classified as "perfect"

God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm
EX: God drowned innocent babies when He didn't have to

So, you believe the God of the Bible exists, then? Or am I missing something?

And...........let me get this straight: you believe that without a perfect Moral Arbitor, there is such thing as a metaphysical "moral goodness" to which we all must adhere? Please tell me you're kidding?

 

[topher694]

Jesus Christ, Himself, begs to differ!

Matthew 22:36-38

Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?

 

[Treeplanter]

So, you believe the God of the Bible exists, then? Or am I missing something?

And...........let me get this straight: you believe that without a perfect Moral Arbitor, there is such thing as a metaphysical "moral goodness" to which we all must adhere? Please tell me you're kidding?

No, I do not believe that the God of the bible exists
What I do believe is that God, as described in the bible, is utterly unworthy of anyone's devotion

You believe in the God of the bible and I am here to try and talk you out of this belief because it is harmful to both yourself and society as a whole

And yes, there IS a standard to which we all should adhere
It's the same standard that most every human being on earth naturally comprehends:

To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another human being is immoral
{Everything else is either moral or, at the very least, morally neutral}

 

[Treeplanter]

Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?

Well, no offense, but apparently more so than you...

I've yet to encounter a self-proclaimed Christian who asserts that Jesus is anything less than the absolute most important thing

What, may I ask, is more important to you than your relationship with Christ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, I do not believe that the God of the bible exists
What I do believe is that God, as described in the bible, is utterly unworthy of anyone's devotion

You believe in the God of the bible and I am here to try and talk you out of this belief because it is harmful to both yourself and society as a whole

And yes, there IS a standard to which we all should adhere
It's the same standard that most every human being on earth naturally comprehends:

To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another human being is immoral
{Everything else is either moral or, at the very least, morally neutral}

Well then, if you're here to try to talk me out of my belief(s), you have your work cut out for you, don't you? I'll give you a couple of guesses as to the reasons "why" I say this in my particular case.

 

[topher694]

Well, no offense, but apparently more so than you...

I've yet to encounter a self-proclaimed Christian who asserts that Jesus is anything less than the absolute most important thing

What, may I ask, is more important to you than your relationship with Christ?

So you know more about Christianity than a Senior Pastor of a church and Bible School? Impressive.

Nothing is more important to me than God, that doesn't make you right. It means you don't understand, which is fine. What is not fine is pretending you know better than those who actually live this and using unsound logic and belitting to do so.

 

[Treeplanter]

Well then, if you're here to try to talk me out of my belief(s), you have your work cut out for you, don't you? I'll give you a couple of guesses as to the reasons "why" I say this in my particular case.

I'll never give up on reason - even if my interlocutor has...

That said, I haven't a clue what "reasons" are applicable to you in particular - care to share?

 

[Treeplanter]

So you know more about Christianity than a Senior Pastor of a church and Bible School? Impressive.

Nothing is more important to me than God, that doesn't make you right. It means you don't understand, which is fine. What is not fine is pretending you know better than those who actually live this and using unsound logic and belitting to do so.

If nothing is more important to you than God then why did you say that I am wrong when I asserted that "there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ"?

You're not making much sense...


Where have I belittled you???
Where, for that matter, have I used unsound logic???

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'll never give up on reason - even if my interlocutor has...

That said, I haven't a clue what "reasons" are applicable to you in particular - care to share?

Sure.

Reason #1) You have little idea as to what I actually believe at this point, nor how I may believe in this or that proposition, nor "why."

Reason #2) I'm educated in Philosophy (even if only moderately so), and I won't let that fact be kicked into the gutter by anyone, either by assertive, confident atheists who happen to run off of some youtube channel and show up on C.F. nor by the typical Fundamentalist Christians who also, in similar fashion, express epistemic, metaphysical or axiological confidence here on this same website.

Reason #3) You could be wrong about at least a few of your own axiological assumptions.

 

[topher694]

If nothing is more important to you than God then why did you say that I am wrong when I asserted that "there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ"?

You're not making much sense...


Where have I belittled you???
Where, for that matter, have I used unsound logic???

I've already explained this. And you keep changing the words which is another logical fallacy. Trusting in Jesus is essential, yes. Just like breathing. But it is not the only thing that is essential. Just like eating food and drinking water... just because Bob is a human doesn't mean he lives in California.

 

[Treeplanter]

Reason #1} You have little idea as to what I actually believe at this point, nor how I may believe in this or that proposition, nor "why."

Your profile indicates that you are a Christian
Assuming this is true, I automatically know a great deal of what you believe

Reason #2) I'm educated in Philosophy (even if only moderately so), and I won't let that fact be kicked into the gutter by anyone, either by assertive, confident atheists who happen to run off of some youtube channel and show up on C.F. nor by the typical Fundamentalist Christians who also, in similar fashion, express epistemic, metaphysical or axiological confidence here on this same website.

What specific philosophy holds to be true even in the face of sufficient evidence to the contrary?

Reason #3) You could be wrong about at least a few of your own axiological assumptions.

Such as?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your profile indicates that you are a Christian
Assuming this is true, I automatically know a great deal of what you believe

This assertion only holds IF you stereotype Christians and what a 'real' Christian has to be.

What specific philosophy holds to be true even in the face of sufficient evidence to the contrary?

Hmmm. Interesting. Asking such a question with the particular semantics expressed here tells me you haven't studied much philosophy, OR you're holding back to see what I'll say.

Which is it in your case?

Such as?

That human life, even that of children, is somehow metaphysically, rather than merely practically (or emotionally), valuable without the presence of a divine Creator behind the scenes.

Of course, you know that to get around my statement, you'll then also have to also explain which atheistic philosophy you resort to and why in order to arrive at your own view since they're not all the same and there is no "one ethical size which fits all atheists everywhere at all times" viewpoint.

 

[Treeplanter]

I've already explained this. And you keep changing the words which is another logical fallacy. Trusting in Jesus is essential, yes. Just like breathing. But it is not the only thing that is essential. Just like eating food and drinking water... just because Bob is a human doesn't mean he lives in California.

I have NOT changed the words!

Here, in full, is our exchange...

My words - post #115:
"A denial that Christianity ultimately boils down to faith in Christ strikes me as nothing short than a "nit-picky" game of semantics...sure, there is more to the existence of a Christian than just following Christ, but there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ - am I wrong?"


Your words - post #118:
"Yes, you are wrong"


My words - post #120:
"Jesus Christ, Himself, begs to differ!

Matthew 22:36-38"


Your words - post #122:
"Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?"


My words - post #124:
"Well, no offense, but apparently more so than you...

I've yet to encounter a self-proclaimed Christian who asserts that Jesus is anything less than the absolute most important thing

What, may I ask, is more important to you than your relationship with Christ?"


Your words - post #126:
"So you know more about Christianity than a Senior Pastor of a church and Bible School? Impressive.

Nothing is more important to me than God, that doesn't make you right. It means you don't understand, which is fine. What is not fine is pretending you know better than those who actually live this and using unsound logic and belitting to do so."


My words - post #128:
"If nothing is more important to you than God then why did you say that I am wrong when I asserted that "there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ"?

You're not making much sense...

Where have I belittled you???
Where, for that matter, have I used unsound logic???"


No, friend, it is YOU who has "changed the words"!!

What I said is that the relationship with Jesus is the MOST IMPORTANT THING

What you have countered with is that a relationship with Jesus is just one of two or more essential things

I asked if faith in Christ is not the most important thing and you said that it is not

And now you're pretending as if you didn't respond in the manner that you did

Is this, too, a logical fallacy?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Your profile indicates that you are a Christian
Assuming this is true, I automatically know a great deal of what you believe



What specific philosophy holds to be true even in the face of sufficient evidence to the contrary?



Such as?

Also, I'm afraid it's my beddy-bye time, so I'm off to see the wizard. You can pick up with me tomorrow and chat if you like. In the meantime, I'll leave you with the following link to another entry here on Christian Forums that I created a while back. You might find it interesting as a point of departure (an intro, if you will) to more realizations about the limits of modern human ethics.

Best Wishes!

Here's the link:

Cracking our humanitarian teeth on Godless Human Rights ...

 

[Treeplanter]

This assertion only holds IF you stereotype Christians and what a 'real' Christian has to be.


Hmmm. Interesting. Asking such a question with the particular semantics expressed here tells me you haven't studied much philosophy, OR you're holding back to see what I'll say.

Which is it in your case?

That human life, even that of children, is somehow metaphysically, rather than merely practically (or emotionally), valuable without the presence of a divine Creator behind the scenes.

Of course, you know that to get around my statement, you'll then also have to also explain which atheistic philosophy you resort to and why in order to arrive at your own view since they're not all the same and there is no "one ethical size which fits all atheists everywhere at all times" viewpoint.

I don't determine what a Christian is - Jesus does!

What makes you think that human life has no value apart from the existence of a divine creator?

For someone who claims to be familiar with philosophy I find it hard to believe that you could be unfamiliar with the concept of man assigning value...

 

[Treeplanter]

Also, I'm afraid it's my beddy-bye time, so I'm off to see the wizard. You can pick up with me tomorrow and chat if you like. In the meantime, I'll leave you with the following link to another entry here on Christian Forums that I created a while back. You might find it interesting as a point of departure (an intro, if you will) to more realizations about the limits of modern human ethics.

Best Wishes!

Here's the link:

Cracking our humanitarian teeth on Godless Human Rights ...

OK - I'll check it out

Have a nice night!

 

[topher694]

I have NOT changed the words!

Here, in full, is our exchange...

My words - post #115:
"A denial that Christianity ultimately boils down to faith in Christ strikes me as nothing short than a "nit-picky" game of semantics...sure, there is more to the existence of a Christian than just following Christ, but there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ - am I wrong?"


Your words - post #118:
"Yes, you are wrong"


My words - post #120:
"Jesus Christ, Himself, begs to differ!

Matthew 22:36-38"


Your words - post #122:
"Oooooh, you are an expert in Christianity now are you?"


My words - post #124:
"Well, no offense, but apparently more so than you...

I've yet to encounter a self-proclaimed Christian who asserts that Jesus is anything less than the absolute most important thing

What, may I ask, is more important to you than your relationship with Christ?"


Your words - post #126:
"So you know more about Christianity than a Senior Pastor of a church and Bible School? Impressive.

Nothing is more important to me than God, that doesn't make you right. It means you don't understand, which is fine. What is not fine is pretending you know better than those who actually live this and using unsound logic and belitting to do so."


My words - post #128:
"If nothing is more important to you than God then why did you say that I am wrong when I asserted that "there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT to a Christian than following Christ"?

You're not making much sense...

Where have I belittled you???
Where, for that matter, have I used unsound logic???"


No, friend, it is YOU who has "changed the words"!!

What I said is that the relationship with Jesus is the MOST IMPORTANT THING

What you have countered with is that a relationship with Jesus is just one of two or more essential things

I asked if faith in Christ is not the most important thing and you said that it is not

And now you're pretending as if you didn't respond in the manner that you did

Is this, too, a logical fallacy?

Lol, you just keep ignoring the substance of what I'm saying and making wrong assumptions about the rest.

As for the wording. We started here:

I know EXACTLY what your view is, friend:
Trust in Jesus Christ

And ended here:

Jesus is anything less than the absolute most important thing

That's changing the wording. It's the fallacy of equivocation.

 

[Treeplanter]

Lol, you just keep ignoring the substance of what I'm saying and making wrong assumptions about the rest.

As for the wording. We started here:


And ended here:

That's changing the wording. It's the fallacy of equivocation.

I stand by my words:

To be a Christian is to trust in Jesus
If one doesn't trust in Jesus then, despite any claim to the contrary, he is not a Christian

To be a Christian means that Jesus is the most important thing to a person
If Jesus is not the most important thing in one's life then one is not really a Christian

What, exactly, are you disagreeing with??


I'll say it again - I know exactly what your view is
Your "view" is one in the same as Jesus' view!
{and if I'm wrong then you are not a Christian}


Fallacy of equivocation my butt!!
There is nothing ambiguous, much less contradictory, in my assertion{s} that you, ostensibly -
1. trust in Christ
and
2. that Christ is the most important thing to you

What are you trying to say???
Stop farting around and say it!!!

 

[topher694]

I stand by my words:

To be a Christian is to trust in Jesus
If one doesn't trust in Jesus then, despite any claim to the contrary, he is not a Christian

To be a Christian means that Jesus is the most important thing to a person
If Jesus is not the most important thing in one's life then one is not really a Christian

What, exactly, are you disagreeing with??


I'll say it again - I know exactly what your view is
Your "view" is one in the same as Jesus' view!
{and if I'm wrong then you are not a Christian}


Fallacy of equivocation my butt!!
There is nothing ambiguous, much less contradictory, in my assertion{s} that you, ostensibly -
1. trust in Christ
and
2. that Christ is the most important thing to you

What are you trying to say???
Stop farting around and say it!!!

I'm saying there is far, far, far MORE to Christianity than trusting Jesus. If that was the only truth in Christianity that mattered my job would be a heck of a lot easier. I'm saying the 2 things I quoted are not the same. I'm saying a conversation about, "what is your view on Christiananity" is different conversation than, "what is most important to you". You started with one and shifted to the other. That is exactly what the fallacy of equivocation is. And I'm saying because of this pattern of behavior it's kinda pointless to continue to engage.

I mean what is your goal here? You've made it clear you know more than the God you don't believe in. You've made it clear HE is indebted to YOU. You've made it clear you know more about Christianity than Christans. You see unsound logic as just, "nit-picking". Sounds like you've already got it figured out. So what should the rest of us conclude about your reason for being here engaging with us? I can see 3 possible reasons:

1) you came to simply complain about God.
2) you came looking for an opportunity to put a few Christians in their place. Or...
3) nope... you're not ready for 3 yet.

 

[Treeplanter]

I'm saying there is far, far, far MORE to Christianity than trusting Jesus.

Not really...

Problem
Solution
Application of solution to problem

This, in a nutshell, is Christianity

What is this strange compulsion to pretend that the faith is somehow more?

I'm saying a conversation about, "what is your view on Christiananity" is different conversation than, "what is most important to you".

Disagree

These two things are one in the same!
Both are centered on Christ

There is no such thing as a "view on Christianity" apart from Jesus Christ
AND
there is no such thing as a Christian for whom Jesus Christ is not the most important thing

I mean what is your goal here?

My goal, ultimately, is to disavow you of a harmful belief

You've made it clear you know more than the God you don't believe in.

In terms of differentiating between right and wrong - yes
My morality is vastly superior to that of God
{as is the morality of most every person on earth}

You've made it clear HE is indebted to YOU.

If He wants me to regard Him as morally virtuous - yes, He does owe it to me to behave virtuously

If He wants me to place my trust in Him - yes, He does owe it to me to explain Himself to me

You've made it clear you know more about Christianity than Christans.

I don't recall saying that!
What I suggested is that I know more about Christianity than you, yourself, do

If you'll recall, I asserted that there is nothing more important to a Christian than following Christ and you claimed that I am wrong!!!

I don't imagine that there is a single Christian who will agree with you over me...

1) you came to simply complain about God.

Nope
Like I said, I came save you from a harmful belief

2) you came looking for an opportunity to put a few Christians in their place.

Nope
I came to save you from a harmful belief

3) nope... you're not ready for 3 yet.

Oh, do tell - what is the 3rd possible reason that you think might have led me here?