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Featured transgression of desolation vs abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The sequence of events:



    In the role of the King of Israel (but illegitimate), the Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle - beginning the 70th week.

    In the early middle part of the 70th week, he commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thess2:4 - Day of the Lord begins.*

    God has him killed for the act - Ezekiel 28:1-10

    In disdain for the person, God brings him back alive - Isaiah 14:19-20.

    Back alive, now in the role of the beast, 8th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire - the image is made of him, which is the abomination of desolation. Which when it is placed in the temple to be worshiped triggers the great tribulation.



    * the rapture takes place before the Day of the Lord begins. How far before is not known.
     
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  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Over speculations Douggg.

    The "day of the Lord" does NOT begin in the middle of the 70th week. The "day of the Lord" event begins on the FINAL DAY of this present world, the day of Christ's return to do battle against all His adversaries. That is when the "day of the Lord" will come 'as a thief in the night', burning man's works off the earth according to 2 Peter 3:10-12.

    The rapture will happen on that FINAL DAY of this world when Jesus comes. This is why on the 6th Vial, our Lord Jesus is still... warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15). The very next verse is the battle of Armageddon and the 7th Vial.

    The Antichrist is not killed, and then made alive again. That's made up by those who cannot understand that the deadly wound is about one of the seven heads of the beast kingdom, i.e., a location on earth, as Jesus defined the seven heads as seven mountains.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where in your post have you addressed the title of this thread -transgression of desolation vs abomination of desolation ?

    Do you know where the term transgression of desolation is found in the bible?
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.


    Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


    Daniel 9:27
    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


    The above is confirmed by Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal that the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

    After the end of the 70th week, the Church entered the times of the Gentiles.
    Based on Luke 21:24-28, and Romans 11:25, the times of the Gentiles will not end until the Second Coming of Christ.

    Your Bible says the same thing.


    .
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The sequence in Daniel 9:26-27 is....

    1. the messiah is cuttoff - Jesus crucified.
    2. the people of the prince who shall come destroy the city and temple - 70 AD
    3. the person confirms the covenant for 7 years - which is after 70 AD.

    So your theory of the gospel taken to the Jews for 7 years being the 70th week does not fit the sequence - proven by history.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Where in your post do you address the subject of this thread - transgression of desolation versus abomination of desolation ?
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The 1599 Geneva Bible addressed that issue below.

    Daniel 9:27
    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

    .
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I am not reading anything in your post about the transgression of desolation.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    A "theory" is something that has not been proven.
    Einstein's theory of Relativity was proven the first time an atomic bomb exploded.
    It is no longer just a theory. It is a confirmed fact.

    We can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Gospel was taken first to the Jewish people for a period of about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, based on the New Testament scripture.
    Therefore, it is not a "theory".

    Scholars have found 4 Passovers in the New Testament during the earthly ministry of Christ.
    Therefore, we know His earthly ministry lasted for about 3 1/2 years.

    We know that during the beginning of His ministry in Matthew 10:5-7 Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken to "the house of Israel".
    The focus of His ministry was mainly to Israel.
    This lasted for about 3 1/2 years.
    Romans 1:16 says that the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews.

    Paul was converted after the Day of Pentecost and after Stephen was stoned.
    Therefore, we know it was at least several months after Christ was crucified.

    In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals that he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion.

    A person does not need a calculator to see that the Gospel was taken to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles, based on the text of the New Testament.
    The only way to get around this fact is by ignoring the text.

    .
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The transgression of desolation is in the bible, it is not a theory. And it takes place in the end times.

    What you have, instead, is a theory that falls out of sequence of not following historic 70 AD destruction of the city and sanctuary.

    In Daniel 9, you will find that Daniel himself was praying about his people "transgressing" the covenant.

    11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

    1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

    What does the person in 2thessalonians2:4 do?

    4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    So that act is the transgression of desolation in the end times in Daniel 8:12-17.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Jews of Jesus day understood the passage above, because they celebrated the feast of Hanukkah every year.

    Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


    Josephus records this fact below.

    From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

    "6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


    The only way to make your claim work is by erasing the books on ancient middle east history.

    .
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't understand what you posted connects to the sequence in Daniel 9:26-27.

    The messiah is cutoff.

    Then the temple and city is destroyed - which happened in 70 AD.

    Then the person confirms the covenant for one week.


    What does Antiochus or hannukkah got to do with any of that or the transgression of desolation of the end times? Are you trying to say that Antiochus who live 160 years before Jesus, lived in the end times? Bab2, I am not getting your rationale process.
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I addressed this you said:
    So now do you want me to address what your reference to the transgression of desolation is? It's from Daniel 8, and it's the same subject of the placing of the abomination that makes desolate in Dan.11:31, and in Dan.9:27. It is the same event Jesus warned of for the very end with the "abomination of desolation".
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And concerning the 'deadly wound' of Revelation...

    Rev 13:3
    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    KJV

    The "deadly wound" is not upon the Antichrist. It's upon one of the seven heads of Rev.13 which are seven mountains according to our Lord in Rev.17.



    Rev 13:12
    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    KJV

    The first beast of Rev.13 is a kingdom beast. This second beast is an entity, a person, i.e., the Antichrist. He will exercise all the power of the first beast kingdom which will have ten horns (ten kings), seven heads, and ten crowns. The suggestion is that this "another beast" Antichrist will come to heal the deadly wound.


    (Personally, I believe this deadly wound will be about Jerusalem for the end with the "league" the vile person (Antichrist) of Dan.11 will make. It represents a seven year peace plan for Jerusalem that will require the pseudo-Christ to heal.)


    Rev 17:9
    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    KJV

    The seven heads = seven mountains. Thus it's pointing to the seven heads being about geographic locations on earth. And there's a deadly wound upon one of those seven areas. I believe it will be Jerusalem for the end prior to our Lord Jesus' return.



    Rev 17:1
    17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    KJV

    Rev 17:15
    15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    KJV

    The great whore sits upon the seven mountains per Rev.17:9, and the symbol of waters is also given in that, and are defined as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. So the seven mountains represent basically the areas of the earth divided up by the nations. One of those seven areas will suffer the "deadly wound" and it is then healed with the showing up of the "another beast" (Antichrist).
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Absolutely nothing.

    That is the point.

    You are connecting Daniel chapter 8 to the future, when it was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes during 167 BC.

    It has nothing to do with Daniel chapter 9.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Antiochus, 160 years before Jesus, is the time of the end?

    That makes zero sense. I am connecting the parts of Daniel 8 regarding the little horn to time of the end because it says so in the text.



    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    .
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Did Antiochus live at when John said those words? Or over a 160 years before? And John did not say time of the end.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    How can it be before?

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    The brethren adressed here are obviously meaning the saved. If Paul thought that they would not even be present when the DOTL initially begins, why then is Paul saying what he says in verse 4? You don't find it silly to be told about that day not overtaking you as a thief, that being because you won't even be here to see that day? The way that day can or cannot overtake one as a thief though, it requires the ones not overtaken as a thief, to still be present when that day initially begins. Otherwise Paul is making a ridiculous point in verse 4.
     
  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Readers: "early middle" is bogus when Daniel tells us that it comes in the midst (to divide in half). John proves this exact half division by giving us two verses with 1260 days, which is an exact division.

    What does all this mean? It means, the man of sin will enter the temple on day 1260 of the week (1260 days after the week is confirmed) and desecrate the temple, which will stop the daily sacrifices, just as Daniel said. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that time in heaven.

    Next, there is no verse anywhere that tells us the man of sin turned Beast will die! What it does say is that one of its heads receives a deadly wound. We know the heads represent nations with kings. So one of the 7 nations (7 heads) got a deadly wound. Would Babylon be one of the 7? Most commentators would say so. Is modern Iraq on the same land area as old Babylon? Yes. What has happened to Iraq? It was conquered (deadly wound) and its king put to death.
     
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