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Featured transgression of desolation vs abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Of course this would be the way you would reason things like this. After all, you are Pretrib, correct?

    I was Pretrib for years and years. I eventually changed to Post trib. But not because anybody convinced me Post trib is the correct position, but because the Bible convinced me of that once I began studying these things with an open mind, thus setting Pretrib aside at the time. IOW I began reading these Scriptures involved, without any already formed Pretrib bias. In my mind then since no one knows me better than me, I'm convinced I have arrived at the correct conclusions, that there is no Pretrib rapture being taught in Scriptures. I'm also convinced by Scripture, that the rapture can't precede the DOTL. In earlier posts I explained some reasons why. One of them being that they are saying peace and safety when the DOTL suddenly comes upon them. That doesn't fit with a rapture having already preceded this. But a rapture can happen at the same time though, meaning the same time the DOTL suddenly commences.
     
  2. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't the bible that convinced you brother because that is not Gods truth, and no matter what people believe its not going to change the facts. You began listening to men's arguments, because nowhere in the bible does it say the Rapture is not pretrib. I can overcome any argument otherwise with facts.

    THEY...........Are not Christians and not the Repentant Jews, THEY........Are those in the Dark.
     
  3. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    IMO, the peace and saftey is after the two witnesses are killed. I believe what we see here is the resurrection/rapture taking place. Just like the interlude of Rev 14:14-20, another picture. If that is not a picture of the resurrection, I don't what is. :rolleyes:

    The problem is we think the 3.5 years of the two witnesses must be right at the start of the 70th week, or right in the middle. How about like 2.5 years into the 70th week-after the 2nd seal is broke-which = one for each year of the 70th week? This way the resureection/rapture happens with one year left, at the six seal-the sign the Day of The Lord is about to start.

    The thing is they have 3.5 to witness, and then the Beast kills them, but they are protected before. The world will blame a lot of the stuff on the two witnesses. So, this is the "peace and saftey" Paul was talking about, IMO. But what they do is only a prelude to the DOTL! :eek: You can't get around that we are not appoited to undergo the DOTLs wrath. Paul makes that clear.

    Understanding the interludes and where they fit into the chronology is crucial in understading Revelation, IMO. And this depends on when you place the DOTL starting at. I see it starting at the six seal becuse the earth is not hurt by God until the first Trumpet, the 144,000 are only being sealed then- just before, and the Great Tribulation is shown as over-by the multitude shown as coming out of it, and the signs are the same Jesus gave before He comes to rescue us before the DOTL wrath, as in the days of Noah-rescue before wrath. So too many things happening right at this point to ignore, IMO. We just all have biases for sure, and if we have biases, God won't reveal the truth I've found.

    Remeber, I use to be Pre, and then Post, before moving to Pre-Wrath. I find it answers most questions and fits the key events better. Once you get the DOTL right, it all falls into place it seems. :)


    Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. 

    Rev 11:10  And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 

    Rev 11:11  Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 

    Rev 11:12  And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.


    Mat 3:12  His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." 
     
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Pretty clever, I have to admit. :)
     
  5. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Oh yeah? What did Jesus teach us? Study out the word Parousia and you'll find out the Parousia starts at Mat 24:29-30. Just study this word out and observe the contexts and what they are describing. It's all the same thing. Then go to Revelation 6-7, and see how they match up with what jesus said. The great Tribulation is the key word here.

    Are we going to listen to Jesus or what our denomination teaches? That is the question.


    Mat 24:3  AndG1161 as heG846 satG2521 uponG1909 theG3588 mountG3735 of Olives,G1636 theG3588 disciplesG3101 cameG4334 unto himG846 privately,G2596 G2398 saying,G3004 TellG2036 us,G2254 whenG4219 shall these thingsG5023 be?G2071 andG2532 whatG5101 shall be theG3588 signG4592 of thyG4674 coming,G3952 andG2532 of theG3588 endG4930 of theG3588 world?G165 
     
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I think we are somewhat on the same page in regards to the peace and safety involving the death of the 2W. I myself, though I could be wrong here of course, tend to think the 2w are killed at the end of the 42 reign of the beast, and not killed 3.5 days after they finish their testimony, which basically makes their deaths mid 70th week.

    The 42 month reign of the beast is meaning after the 1260 days the 2W prophecy. And that the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning the GT. The DOTL though, it occurs after the GT. In order for the peace and safety to involve the deaths of the 2W, and also involve the DOTL coming suddenly, the 2W have to be killed towards the end of the 42 month reign of the beast, otherwise this indicates the DOTL and the 42 month reign of the beast, these run parallel. Yet the 42 month reign of the beast is the day of the beast, and not the DOTL as well. The DOTL involves payback. The beast first wages war against the saints, overcomes them 42 months, then it's payback time, that being the DOTL afterwards.
     
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Per my understanding, right or wrong, the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming and not the first trumpet instead.
     
  8. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Its clear you do not understand the chronological order of the book of Revelation.

    You don't seem to get that Rev. 11 is a 1260 day period that starts before the Middle of the week thus 75 days before Rev. ch. 6 starts. Thus it ends with the Two-witnesses deaths at the 2nd Woe, but we are then shown the final battle of Armageddon's results via Jesus "TAKES OVER". The 7th Trumpet as its blown in Rev. 11 = the 7 Vials because the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe !!

    Rev. 1-3 are Chapters of the Church on earth. Rev. 4-5 is the Church in Heaven after the Rapture but BEFORE the Seals are opened, thus the Marriage in Rev. 19 has ALREADY HAPPENED because they have White robes on in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9.

    Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and [15 and] 16 are the Judgments, the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. In Rev. 7 God is in the process of protecting ALL Israel, the 144,000 is a Metaphor, you KNOW WHY I KNOW ? There will not be 144,000 virgins floating around in Israel, LOLOL........That is 144,000 men virgins out of 6 Million people, GET OUT........It means they have been made WHOLE in the Blood of Christ Jesus, they have REPENTED !! The 144,000 represents Fullness, as in 12 x 12 x 12 represents ALL ISRAEL, not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation is saved, just like God promised Abraham, his seed would endure forever. So God Seals (protects Israel in Petra) and then the Trumpet Judgments start. Eventually the Three Woes come to pass and the Last Woe is the 7 Vials.

    Then we go to Rev. 20 the Judgment Seat followed by Rev. 21-22 the 1000 year reign/ever-after and the New Jerusalem. That is the chronological order of Revelation.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations or Set-a-side Chapters that are about EVENTS that happened in the other chapters but were not mentioned in depth or at all in the original overview.

    Rev. 11 starts 75 days before Rev. ch. 6. Then we have Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 that all start with the First Seal being opened in the Middle of the Week, thus when Rev. ch. 6 starts. In Rev. 12 we see Israel Flees for 1260 Days (exact time the Beast rules for 42 Months) we see the SAME PICTURE in Rev. 7 (144,000) and Rev. 18:4 where God calls Israel to "Come out of her my people".

    In Rev. 13 we see the Beast arise out of the Sea (exact same thing as the White Horse Conquering) and his False Prophet RELIGIOUS BEAST arises out of Jerusalem (earth/land). This starts in Rev. 6.

    In Rev. 17 we see that the Beast's Kings WIPE OUT all Religions to make way for BEAST WORSHIP, there can be no other Religions, period. Thus the Harlot (All False Religions) are Judged and wiped out by the Beast in Rev. ch. 6, that is a part of the 1/4 of all Mankind he kills off !!

    In Rev. 18, Babylon (Whole World), the BEAST GOVERNMENT(S) the Harlot rides is hit by PLAGUES that destroy her COMMERCE via the 7 Seals, 7 Trumps and 7 Vials. Of course it destroys the Commerce of the World. All the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees burn, 1/3 of the sea creatures die after 1/3 of the seas turn to blood, and 1/3 of the ships are destroyed and 1/3 of the drinking waters are poisoned. That's after the Seals kill off 1.5 to 2 Billion people. Of course the COMMERCE is Destroyed !! Then we get the Three Woes, a horde of Demons are released from the pit and they maim and harm mankind for 5 months. Then we get a 200 million Angelic Army that kills off 1/3 of all remaining mankind, that should be another 1.5 Billion people, and the 3rd Woe or 7 Vials have yet to be poured out on mankind.

    So 3 to 3.5 Billion people are killed off and you have all of these Plagues brought by God. Of course Babylon's (THE WHOLE WORLD) Commerce is destroyed via Rev. chapters 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16.

    Then we have Rev. 19, its the FULL 7 Years of the Church in Heaven, so it has to start BEFORE Rev. ch. 4, because they already have White Robes on there !!

    Rev. 14 shows the RAPTURE and then the Armageddon Judgment. Two Harvests.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  9. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Fairly standard Pre-Trib senario, and thanks for sharing! :oldthumbsup: I agree with most of what you said. After all Pre-trib, Pre-Warth, or Post-Trib, we are all Pre-Mill, and we have more in common that not. Mostly we disagree on the timing of the Rapture-which of course is huge and contentioius, and that will also influence on how we see the chornolgy of Revelation, in relation to the DOTL.

    But we belive in a mostly literal interpretation of prophecies, and most Pre-tribers are watching current events-eventhough they believe Jesus could come, like today. ;) So I'm not an enemy of Pre or Post Trib.

    And the way I figure, If I'm wrong, oh well! Doh! :doh:But if you are wrong, and we are the generation that must go through the Tribulation, it's going to be awefully rough on Pre-Tribers like yourself. :( Post Tribers, heck, them not having to go through the DOTL, it will be like a pic-nic! :p... But did you study the word Parousia out? :)
     
  10. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    But you just admitted, by and large, you are guessing brother. The Holy Spirit never leads us that way, we are taught things of a surety, we are not taught to poke ad hope brother. I am not guessing, I have been preaching for 30 years, but I like you felt it didn't matter enough to dig deep, even though I believed in the pre-trib. Then I started seeing how its very dangerous, either way, to be wrong on this matter, thus I went on a journey to find the 100 percent truth and I juxtaposed all the talking point of both sides against each other.

    The Pre-trib argument is the only argument that withstands scrutiny brother. Once I read Rev. 19 in full on my journey, I understood that anyone seeking the truth, who reads Rev. 19, sees the Church in Heaven, BECOMING the Bride, then returning with Jesus on White horses (as Conquerors) where the Beast and all of his armies await them ON EARTH, and refuse to admit that the Rapture has to be Pre-trib is just not being serious, they are holding on the the pride that men seem to have (I can't be wrong) because we as men are competitive by nature.

    By the way Matt. 24:29-31 is the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
     
  11. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Love that last line! Ha! :) Agree with you 100% on us being in Heaven and coming back with Jesus in Rev 19! Going to be AWESOME brother! :amen:
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your problem is the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
    These passages destroy the Two Peoples of God doctrine, and its pretrib removal of the Church.





    .
     
  13. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I like the same time idea. It is exactly what Paul shows us.
     
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    "You don't seem to get that Rev. 11 is a 1260 day period that starts before the Middle of the week thus 75 days before Rev. ch. 6 starts."

    I have to challenge you on this, for it does not fit the scriptures! We have been through this before and you still have not seen it. EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 years mentioned in Revelation is for the last half of the week. BELIEVE IT for it is truth!

    You are mistaken about the two witnesses. Just like the 42 months of trampling, their testimony will begin just before the abomination that breaks the week into two halves. What you are missing is that 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. The truth is, they will be put to death just 3 1/2 days before the end of week.

    God is trying to REVEAL things to us, not confuse us! To write of 42 months for the last half, and then write of 1260 days for the first half, and then later 1260 days for the last half? NO NO NO! John saw the two witnesses arrive! Right in 11:3 is when they arrive from heaven. Then show up then because in 11:1-2 the man of sin arrives in Jerusalem. THEY come then because HE came then.

    Did you just not notice that much of chapter 13 is also written as a parenthesis? John takes us down the path of the last half of the week with the two Beasts, showing us what they will do. But in chapter 14 John is right back near the midpoint - PROVING much of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis. Do you imagine God would send His warning not to take the mark TO LATE? Not a chance! So the warning will actually come BEFORE the mark is created.

    It is the same with the two witnesses: John takes us down the last half of the week with them only, showing what will happen. The earthquake is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial. But in verse 14 & 15 John is right back at the exact midpoint.

    THE TRUTH then, is that Revelation 11 is a MIDPOINT chapter, starting just before the midpoint and ending at the midpoint. 12:6 is perhaps two seconds after the midpoint. They will have seen the abomination and are starting to flee.

    we are then shown the final battle of Armageddon's results via Jesus "TAKES OVER". This again is myth! Yes, at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus, but there are simply NO WORDS even hinting He comes to earth then! He has promised the BEAST 42 months and will keep to His word. There IS NO ARMAGEDDON in chapter 11! That is myth. You are reading into scripture what is simply NOT THERE.

    Rev. 4-5 is the Church in Heaven after the Rapture Sorry, but MORE MYTH! Rev. 4:1 is NOT THE RAPTURE! It is JOHN called up to heaven. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and so the church is still here until the total number of martyrs will have taken place. That is what God tells them. You are reading into scripture what is simply NOT THERE.

    thus the Marriage in Rev. 19 has ALREADY HAPPENED because they have White robes on in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9. MORE MYTH! You can't tear apart Revelation and rebuild it to fit your theory! ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong! White robes prove nothing but white robes. Do you imagine God has only one kind of white robe?

    I will go with what is written: that exactly 144,000 will be sealed. There is no hint that this is not a real number!

    the Last Woe is the 7 Vials. I don't agree. John TELLS US what the woe is: the 7th trumpet is the signal for Michael to go after Satan to take him down. And it is written, WOE to those upon the earth for the devil is very angry. THAT is the 3rd woe.

    So God Seals (protects Israel in Petra) and then the Trumpet Judgments start. Why not just go with what is written? Why rearrange to fit a theory? Why not form your theory from what is written AS it is written? You are rearranging again! Your theory will be proven wrong. The trumpet judgments come in the FIRST HALF of the week. The fleeing begins at the midpoint and those that flee will not arrive in Petra (if that is where then end up) for weeks. Their fleeing then comes AFTER the trumpet judgments - all 7 of them.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations But a REAL TIME event - the 7th trumpet - occurs in chapter 11!

    The rest of your post is just as far off. I wish you would just believe Revelation as written. Then your theories would be right. NO ONE has the right or the need to rearrange Revelation. It is written in perfect order!
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    .

     
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Just before the 1290 (Daniel calls the 1290 the AoD) is the 1335, so you are correct. The Two-witnesses do show up just before the AoD, 45 days before the AoD.

    It fits the scriptures, you just can't see it brother, we all have blind spots we have to overcome. You seem to be hung up on preconceived ideas. The 42 Months in Rev. 13 is for the last 1260 days. The 1260 days and Time, times and half time in Rev. 12 is also for the last 1260 days.

    But since the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, their 1260 day period BY DEFINITION can not be about the last 1260 days. Its just really basic math. They show up BEFORE the DOTL, just like Malachi 4:5-6 says, you guys who can't see that are being confused by other things besides the facts brother. Its 1335 days from the time the Two-witnesses show up until the Second Coming.

    I am not missing anything. You not understanding that the 7 Vials take much longer than 3 1/2 days is all on you brother. The 3 1/2 days is how long they lay in the streets, meaning their 1260 day ministry is over. They then ascend to Heaven and the 7th Trumpet sounds which is the 3rd Woe, thus the 7 Vials, collectively, all together are the 3rd Woe.

    The Whole (Rev. 11) Chapter is a Parenthetical Citation. Its a 1335 day period that starts 45 days before the AoD and 75 days before the First Seal is opened, sending the Anti-Christ forth to thus become THE BEAST, and ends via us being shown the 7th Trump RESULTS (Jesus takes over) but we are not shown what the 7th Trumpet entails. In other words, just like we see the Two-witnesses dying at the end of the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, the DETAILS of the 2nd Woe are seen in Rev. ch. 9, not in Rev. ch. 11. Likewise the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe are seen in Rev. ch. 16. Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Chapter !! PERIOD.

    No one is writing of or about a 42 Months for the first half. The Two-witnesses 42 Months STARTS before the Middle of the week, and thus it has to, in order to get Israel to REPENT BEFORE the DOTL !! Elijah is sent 75 days before the DOTL.

    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    You allow the Old Type Scriptures to confuse you here and there it seems brother. In Rev. 11:1-2, its being told to John what is going to happen to the Two-witnesses for a 42 Month period. Also, the Anti-Christ will become THE BEAST for a 42 Month period of time, so DON'T measure that outward court of the Temple. BUT....Measure Temple, the Alter and them that Worship therein !! Do you get that brother ? Its ALL ABOUT the Jews here !!

    So in your mind you think this is about the Anti-Christ when its JUST THE OPPOSITE, who does it start with ? The PEOPLE of God, the Jews, MEASURE the TEMPLE, the ALTER, and the people that WORSHIP THEREIN (Jews). BUT.............do not measure the COURT OUTSIDE the Temple !! Its not speaking about the Anti-Christ/Beast here at all brother. God is telling John to not worry about taking the MEASUREMENT of the OUTSIDE COURT because this is about the Jews, you get its intention backwards my friend. This is "bird dogging" the Jews or pointing towards the Jews and you think its pointing to the Beast. But John is being told this basically..........I want you to look at (Take Measure of) the Jews here, not the Gentiles who will tread the Court, but MEASURE the Jews only. Then he is told about the Two-witnesses 42 months !!

    Let me break this down in plain speak, not God Code.

    Hey John, THIS IS ABOUT the Jews and the Two-witnesses, not about the Gentiles and the Beast.

    Take MEASURE of the TEMPLE and the Jews that Worship therein (Alter) don't MEASURE (Look at) the Gentiles who will rule the City for 42 Months, this IS NOT ABOUT THEM per se.

    Then we get 42 Months of information about the Two-witnesses ministry. They die BEFORE THE BEAST DIES, and since he rules for 42 Months as they do, and they die before the Beast dies the Two-witnesses must show up BEFORE the Beast does !! Thus Malachi 4:5-6 is fulfilled.

    So John was being told about the Two-witnesses 42 Month ministry here, not about the Beast.

    TO BE CONTINUED.............
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  17. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    All of ch 13 is a Parenthetical Citation. Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are NOT ANY PART of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.

    Rev. 14 is about the Two Harvests. Thus, if you understand the Pre-trib Rapture, verse 14 is Jesus ON A CLOUD thrusting in the Cycle or Harvesting the Church via the Rapture, and its Jesus before the 70th week. The other Cycle later on is THRUST in by an Angel WATCH BELOW BROTHER:

    Rev. 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Jesus), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. {{{RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH HARVEST HERE }}} 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    Battle of Armageddon HARVEST BELOW:

    Rev. 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city,(Meggido/Armageddon) and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    So we have the RAPTURE of the Church by Jesus in verses 14-16, he thrust in the Cycle himself. Then you have the Harvest of the wicked, and we all know an Angel pours out the 7th Vial, thus its an Angel that thrusts in the Cycle to Harvest the Wicked !!

    Rev. 13 happens during Rev. ch. 6 brother. Thus its a Parenthetical Chapter. Rev. 14 happens before the 70th Week and when Jesus returns.

    John is shown the Two-witnesses 1260 day ministry, and the 7th Trumpet sounding, which is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials. No details are given, we are just shown that Jesus takes over. So we see the Two-witnesses 1260 days and the 75 days of the 3rd Woe, but are not given details, that is given in ch. 16.

    Verses 14 and 15 are about the 2nd Woe. That is nowhere near the Midway point.

    Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the Midway point and ENDS with Jesus' Second Coming, why do you think it says Jesus TAKES OVER ?

    Chapter 12 is about the "Midway point on"............Correct.

    No, its just you not understanding the passage brother, I know its confusing, if I didn't understand via revelation from God I would be right there with you, but once I am given something, its settled with me. The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe and the Angel says the 3rd Woe comes quickly !! Thus the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe. NO DETAILS are given, just like we are given no details about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, the details are given in Rev. ch. 9.

    The problem is you are just not getting the gist here, the 7th Trumpet REPRESENTS the 3rd Woe and the 3rd Woe are ALL SEVEN VIALS, just like the 7th Seal was ALL SEVEN TRUMPETS rolled into one !! So when the 7th Trumpet Sounds, that represents ALL 7 Vials having been poured out onto earth and thus Jesus TAKE THE DEED BACK from Satan !! REMEMBER, this is about the Two-witnesses, not the 7 Vials of Gods Wrath (3rd Woe). They DIE.....Thus their prayers having brought forth all the plagues heretofore, continue forth their EFFECTIVENESS after they die, thus the results of their "PRAYERS" are also shown, thus the 7th Trumpet results in Jesus taking back the deed to earth again from Satan.

    Try reading chapter 10 after chapter 16, and remember, Rev. 11 and 16 is the SAME ENDING.

    Once again, just because you can't see it changes nothing. Rev.1-3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4:1 represents the Rapture because "before everything we are shown hereafter", the Rapture will have taken place and John will be a part of that Rapture in actuality. John is also shown the Church in Heaven wearing White Raiment (Robes), no matter how much you protest brother, this is a fact.

    The 5th Seal has ZERO to do with the Church, this frustrates me to no end, especially when a guy is supposed to be a Pre-trib guy !! The 5th Seal is ONLY Tribulation Saints, Rev. 20:4 TRIES TO TELL YOU THAT !! It says those that were BEHEADED because they refused the MARK of the BEAST.

    Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    So those who were BEHEADED are those that REFUSED the Mark of the Beast !! So it can not be the Church Pre 70th Week brother !! Thus those under the Alter at the 5th Seal are the BEHEADED Remnant Church of Rev. 12:17, those who the Beast came after once he saw God was protecting the Jews in Petra !!

    Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    So those under the Alter in the 5th Seal want VENGEANCE against those that DWELL ON EARTH, meaning only THOSE CURRENTLY ALIVE ON EARTH could have KILLED THEM !!

    Then they are given White Robes but told they must REST/SLEEP in the Grave until their FELLOW BROTHERS (of the Tribulation period) are KILLED just as they were, should be FULFILLED !!

    These have nothing to do with the Raptured Church !! The Raptured Church are seen in Rev. 4:4, and Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-16, having already Married the Lamb.

    You are CONFLATING Tribulation Saints with the Raptured Church brother. These are the REMNANT CHURCH who come unto Christ after the Rapture. (Wouldn't you repent if you missed the Rapture ? I know I would)

    You have just not been given this revelation it seems, most haven't, don't feel bad. I can preach the facts, irrelevant of what other men's traditions say. Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation that covers the Marriage of the Lamb unto the Bride in Heaven. White Robes are the righteousness of the Saints, so says the scriptures brother.

    Rev. 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints..........THEN.........14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    You just don't seem to quite get the Chronological Order of Revelation brother.

    And I will go with it is a Metaphor, because in Rev. 7 God clearly via an Angel tells them to HOLD OFF hurting the Earth, Sea and TREES until they have been SEALED (Protected). The first four Trumpets do what ? They hurt the Grass, Trees, Seas and the Earth !! In Rev. 18:4 God tells Israel to come out of her MY PEOPLE that you RECEIVE not of her (Babylon/WHOLE WORLDS) Plagues. In Rev. 12 we see Israel Flees Judea where God Protects them for 1260 days. Nowhere does it say the 144,000 are Preachers, THAT'S THE MYTH !! The number 12 = Fullness, thus 12 x 12 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL but not every Jew.

    Micheal kicks Satan out close to the Midway point, not with 75 days to go out of the 70th Week. That happens at about Seal 6, I think the Stars being cast to earth are Demonic Angels !! The Last Woe is the 7th Trumpet which is ALL SEVEN VIALS.

    I am going with what is written, you have just been taught men's traditions and REMEMBER God was not going to reveal much of this until the End Times, and that is the HERE & NOW !! No one is rearranging, what you mean to say is this destroys all of the ideas you have been taught heretofore. That is Gods ways isn't it ? Men teach.......then God teaches reality.

    No Judgments come in the 1st half of the 70th week. Jesus opens the FIRST SEAL at the Midway point. The teaching that "All of those Seals were opened long ago" understandings are wrong brother.

    Just like the 2nd Woe is SHOWN in Rev. 11 but happened in Rev. 9, likewise the 7th Trumpet is SHOWN in juxtaposition to the Two-witnesses ministry, but its not a REAL TIME EVENT, in that the Details are shown in Rev. 16. You see, Rev. 16, IMHO, was misplaced, it should follow Rev. ch. 9. Not that it matters, but pages from an old writer can easily get jumbled up. I understand it nevertheless. Maybe God wanted it jumbled up !! But Rev. 15 & 16 fits right after Rev. ch. 9. Rev. 11 just shows Jesus takes over after the 7th Trumpet which equals after the 3rd Woe which = after the 7 Vials in full. Then yes, Jesus takes over, but the REAL TIME EVENT is Rev. 16, that is why its far more detailed/graphic.

    I might be the only guy you ever meet that knows Revelation from front to back, that is a gift from God, nothing to do with me, except I studied hard and prayed harder.

    The Spirit knoweth the Spirit. God Bless brother.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I just happened to have a study on that word on the thread at the link below.......

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-parousia-in-matthew-24.8076395/#post-73031604
    The "PAROUSIA" in Matthew 24

    I would like to discuss the "parousia<3952>" of Matt 24 and how it is used in the rest of the NT.

    First thing to notice is that Matt 24 is the only chapter out of the 4 Gospels to use the word "parousia".

    "Parousia" mentioned 24 Times only 4 times in Gospels all in Matt 24

    Strong's Number G3952 matches the Greek παρουσία (parousia), which occurs 24 times in 24 verses

    parousiaV/παρουσίας<3952> Mentioned 6 times.

    Matthew 24:3;
    Philippians 1:26;
    2 Thessalonians 2:1,8;
    James 5:7;
    2 Peter 3:4

    parousia/παρουσία <3952> Mentioned 15 times.
    Matthew 24:27, 37, 39;

    1 Corinthians 15:23, 16:17;
    2 Corinthians 7:6,7, 10:10;
    Philippians 2:12;
    1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23;
    2 Thessalonians 2:9;
    James 5:8,
    1 John 2:28

    parousian/παρουσίαν <3952> Mentioned 3 Times
    1 Thessalonians 4:15;
    2 Peter 1:16;
    2 Peter 3:12


    Matthew 24
    1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple, and His Disciples came near to show Him the buildings of the Temple
    2 and Jesus said to them, ‘Do ye not see all these? amen I am saying to ye, not no may being left here a stone upon a stone, which not shall be being thrown down<2647>.’

    3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own saying, be telling to-us!
    when shall these be?
    and what? the sign of-the Thy parousiaV <3952>

    and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age<165>?'
    kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV
    eipe hmin pote tauta estai
    kai ti to shmeion thV shV parousiaV
    kai [ths] sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV

    27 for even as the lightning<796> comes-out from risings/east<395>, and is appearing till of west<1424>,
    thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

    37 For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
    39 and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted<142> all away.
    Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.


    3952. parousia par-oo-see'-ah from the present participle of 3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; specially, of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physically, aspect:--coming, presence.
    3844. para par-ah' a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e.
    3776. ousia oo-see'-ah from the feminine of 5607; substance, i.e. property (possessions):--goods, substance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  19. oldrunner

    oldrunner Member Supporter

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    Nice! :oldthumbsup: Thanks!

    That is exactly what I found too. When observing the context of the obvious resurrection/rapture passages, and add this verse, showing the DOTL is impending and you have the Pre-Wrath understanding of things.

    This is why I'm Pre-Wrath in my view, because I believe it is pretty clear that Mat 24 is talking about the "gathering together" just like Paul was-if we drop our biases. Mark teaches the gathering together is in Heaven and on Earth, just as Paul taught-in the air. So this cannot be a gathering together of Jews after the 70th week. Plus it is clear it is before wrath comes from the examples Jesus gives afterward-days of Noah, Lot. And no wonder, Paul was teaching from the Olivette Discourse, this would be what the people were familiar with- along with the Book of Daniel. The signs, the angels gathering together, Antichrist, the Trump of God= the same thing with the connector being the specific word "Parousia", not just the word for coming and going.

    Mat 24 (along with mark 13, Luke 17:20-37 and 21) gives us the time stamp along with this verse. Rescue then wrath, over and over, after the Great Tribulation is cut short by His coming, on the very same day-like Noah and Lot. Paul taught rescue and then the DOTL wrath too. Rev 7 shows all those that came out of the great tribulation (only used in the Olivette Discourse and here), the 144,000 being sealed to be protected before the DOTL starts with the blowing of the 1st Trumpet.

    I know you and others don't believe this or agree with this, and I don't really want to go back and forth arguing about who is right, this is not my intention. But this is what I believe, and what the Pre-Wrath view point is pretty well- if you were wondering. :)

    And we will all find out one day anyway, if we are the generation chosen to partake in the blessing of being alive when the Lord returns! Just think how many generations waited to see the return of the Lord, and it is looking like we could be it! This will be 10X better than His first coming because we get new bodies and we will see Him face to face! :clap: And this crappy old world system will be destroyed and His righteous Kingdom will be set up! I'm ready! No more LBTQXYZZ, or whatever. :D No more liberal dribble and tripe we will have to put up with ever again, but THE KING will be here!!! Can I get an Amen! :amen:

    In summary:

    In my mind it solves the problem of the Pre-Trib position of no signs before Jesus comes, and it takes His teaching at face value; that He was teaching He is not coming back before the Great Tribulation, but after, and not just relegating the Olivette Discourse for the Jews only.

    And on the other hand, the Post-Trib position that puts the Church under the DOTL wrath of God, and not seeing the Church getting married in Heaven during this period of wrath. :cool:


    Rev 6:16  AndG2532 saidG3004 to theG3588 mountainsG3735 andG2532 rocks,G4073 FallG4098 onG1909 us,G2248 andG2532 hideG2928 usG2248 fromG575 the faceG4383 of him that sittethG2521 onG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 wrathG3709 of theG3588 Lamb:G721 

    Rev 6:17  ForG3754 theG3588 greatG3173 dayG2250 of hisG848 wrathG3709 is come;G2064 andG2532 whoG5101 shall be ableG1410 to stand?G2476 


    G4383

    πρόσωπον

    prosōpon

    pros'-o-pon

    From G4314 and ὤψ ōps (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.
     
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Faisal II who died in 1958 was the last king of Iraq. There hasn't be a king there since then.

    The Revelation Babylon has nothing to do with geographical Babylon, that's just a decoy teaching some use to try and get the heat off of Jerusalem being the endtime Babylon which Revelation is actually pointing to (Rev.11:8).
     
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