Toxic Masculinity Vs Toxic Femininity

[Christopher0121]

IDK. It's all carnal nonsense at the end of the day, isn't it?

When the SHTF and society has gone full on Walking Dead under the beast system, it isn't going to matter if a woman looks traditional enough, or if a guy is limp-wristed and flamboyant.

What's going to matter is your faith under threat of death.

True... if that eschatological model manifests.

 

[Christopher0121]

Everyone hears how hard it is to be a woman yet overlook that men also have it hard. Most people in prison are men, most homeless are men, most victims of violent crime are men, most who commit suicide are men, the draft affects only men, workplace deaths, false rape allegations, family court bias, lose custody, lack of male resources for domestic violence, lack of resources for single fathers, who do worse in school and drop out are men. So generally speaking men have it worse in some areas and women have it worse in others. Yet today men are overlooked and masculinity is considered toxic.

Excellent points. In a lot of ways society has conditioned women to only see and hate men for male privilege. Society doesn't inform women about any burdens males face, and its my experience that when you treat a woman as truly equal... few can hack it. I was in the Army for 8 years. I know women who are total beasts. Women who are truly strong and can hang. But the average liberal feminist activist would loose her mind and emotionally shatter into a million pieces if she was truly treated as an equal to men.

 

[Christopher0121]

Perhaps the answer to toxic masculinity is the gentleman. In a truly civilized society, there is no need for combat. There is energy to devote to things other than mere survival (like CF), which is a very human thing to do. The gentleman is capable of battle, that's where the gentle part comes in, but never has to engage because society is civil. Whether one can be a gentleman or not has little to do with the individual and everything to do with the society. That's why we can't have gentleman in our society; we're a bunch of brutes lol.

Honestly, I think what seems to go for masculinity is a caricature of a bad idea. Acting tough doesn't guarantee toughness. Ideas of masculinity seem like an attempt to be Stoic with no connection to virtue, or anything really. Anyone can be strong, courageous, efficient, whatever; it's not just men. But, as a whole, we dont seem to care about virtue or goodness. So masculinity is often like a facade. It's all Putin on a horse, every last bit of it lol. These days folks (men and women) act tough with guns, so it's about as toxic and counterproductive as it could be. It's stupid. I'm going with toxic humanity. We're not doing well at this society thing, at all.

Excellent points! I've seen a lot of what they call "toxic masculinity" coming from men who are putting up a façade to appear tough.

However, as an 8 year Army veteran who is also a 911 Police/Emergency Dispatcher... some of us have actually experienced things that change us. And yes, we are often "Stoic". Many of us disassociate or keep people at arms reach. Many of us don't get close to anyone. Many of us are on guard and in a constant state of alert. For many it's conditioning and training. For others its PTSD. I've had counseling for years for my PTSD and I am still not the kind of person anyone would ever want to live with. Oh, most wouldn't realize this 90% of the time. However, during a PTSD episode... most realize I'm just too much to handle. Oh well. It is what it is.

 

[Christopher0121]

"Toxic masculinity" is not a phrase which indicates that masculinity is toxic. It describes a particular cultural and ideological take on masculinity, which was given the tag "toxic masculinity" by men observing its negative effects on men.

There is such a thing as healthy masculinity. But in order to talk about that, we need to be able to also identify and talk about its opposite.

I think public hermit is right about toxic humanity. The fact that we can identify gendered aspects of this has a lot to do with the way power imbalances play out across the genders.

I hear what you're saying. However, in "my experience" the moniker "toxic masculinity" is typically thrown at me by soy boys and feminists who have no clue about the scars I carry and experiences that have shaped me. They act like I can just turn off PTSD. Once I was told, "We all have bad days, just get over it." Yeah, I'm to just "get over" things I've seen an done during my 8 years of serving in the U.S. Cavalry. Ignorance. Some things you never get over. I'm not going to list the horrors I've seen, experienced, and inflicted. However, I will simply say that I have zero tolerance for such ignorance. Today, as a 911 Dispatcher I might be removed from the gunfights, suicides, beatings, stabbings, etc... but I'm right there on the line living through it with the caller on every call. When my officers are shot at and they drop a 99 I'm on the radio listening to the gunfight, taking down everything the officer is saying, dispatching back up and medics. I know the that metallic taste of adrenaline when you're under fire. I know how your body and hands shake after you survive a firefight. I'm living it with the officer. I've been the last voice some people have heard. So, if I seem like I'm the poster child for "toxic masculinity" please know I just don't have time for BS and I am incapable of small talk. Yes, I sleep with a gun within reach. And yes, I wake up at sounds throughout the night. Yes, I get agitated. Yes, the sound of firecrackers can trigger me. I simply am who I am. And I sacrificed who I could have been... for ungrateful snots. I've got lefty friends and family who berate me as a police dispatcher because they hate cops.

Honestly, I don't know if I have "toxic masculinity" and frankly I don't care. I simply am who I am.

Tell me more about how terrible the average woman has it. Frankly, she's spitting her privilege all over wounds and scars she knows nothing about. Wounds and scars that cause nearly 20 veterans like me to shoot themselves every day. Male haters are clueless.

I think some men simply have experiences and come from worlds that shape them into being who and what they are and society simply doesn't know what to make of us. So it panics and labels us... "toxic". Sadly, some of us don't fit in anywhere but the VFW.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

True. Unfortunately, women have been oppressed historically. However, your post also acknowledges that society is now oppressing men.

Personally, I think the answer is to relieve all oppression and bring justice to all... not support the notion of "pay back". Because that isn't justice, that's vengeance.

Your post makes no sense to me. Who is doing the payback and vengeance?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What are your thoughts on society bashing toxic masculinity yet leave out toxic femininity as today people want to shun only masculinity. This gets shoved on children especially boys. Just like you hear how bad it is to be a misogynist, but yet misandry ideals are alright in today’s society.

By today’s standards many men of the Bible would be considered in the box of “toxic”. Is this alright?

I know I have made some comments on this thread but then I looked up what toxic masculinity and femininity are. It's not what I thought as the OP reference seemed different. Thoughts?

Toxic masculinity
A set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.

1. "the destructive messages associated with toxic masculinity can lead to men feeling entitled to engage in violence against women"

Toxic Femininity
Refers to the adherence to the gender binary in order to receive conditional value in patriarchal societies. It is a concept that restricts women to being cooperative, passive, sexually submissive, gentle, and deriving their value from physical beauty while being pleasing to men.

 

[Margot Lugo]

Toxic masculinity is when a guy burps at the table, doesn't excuse himself, gets up, and leaves his dirty plate for his 84-year-old mother to clean. (JK)

 

[RDKirk]

I know I have made some comments on this thread but then I looked up what toxic masculinity and femininity are. It's not what I thought as the OP reference seemed different. Thoughts?

Toxic masculinity
A set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole.

1. "the destructive messages associated with toxic masculinity can lead to men feeling entitled to engage in violence against women"

Toxic Femininity
Refers to the adherence to the gender binary in order to receive conditional value in patriarchal societies. It is a concept that restricts women to being cooperative, passive, sexually submissive, gentle, and deriving their value from physical beauty while being pleasing to men.

Well, those are pretty agenda-serving definitions.

Unfortunately, the American social rhetoric has devolved to the point that everyone uses the definitions of words that fit their own agenda.

It's like defining racism in such a way that only white people can be accused of it.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Well, those are pretty agenda-serving definitions.

Unfortunately, the American social rhetoric has devolved to the point that everyone uses the definitions of words that fit their own agenda.

It's like defining racism in such a way that only white people can be accused of it.

I'm open to other definitions.

 

[Paidiske]

However, in "my experience" the moniker "toxic masculinity" is typically thrown at me by soy boys and feminists who have no clue about the scars I carry and experiences that have shaped me.

I would say those people are missing the point. There's no point using a term like "toxic masculinity" to attack individuals; the point is to have a tool with which we can critique culture and social systems etc.

They act like I can just turn off PTSD.

Then - as someone who also has PTSD - they're ignorant. Trauma and PTSD are not the same thing as toxic masculinity (although they might interact in different people's experiences).

I think some men simply have experiences and come from worlds that shape them into being who and what they are and society simply doesn't know what to make of us.

That is probably true.

So it panics and labels us... "toxic".

I am not sure it's fair to say that "society" labels (for example) veterans as toxic, because that really is not what the discourse around toxic masculinity is about. And people confusing PTSD with toxic masculinity are incredibly ignorant about both.

 

[Christopher Pineau]

Well...certainly some interesting and provocative in a good way discussion, here. Allow me to weigh in a bit.

I can only speak for myself, here, of course. I call myself the "walking gray area" because I am one thing that has disappeared in society; a middle ground. Sensitive and thoughtful, articulate? Certainly. "Soy boy" oversensitive and virtue signaling, not so much. Macho "alpha male" knucklehead wannabe, never. But at the same time, am I a tough and classically masculine guy who can handle himself in a fight if need be? Not so much. I'm in the middle somewhere, and while I like it just fine? Others these days don't seem to grok what I am and where I come from.

It does bother me when I see certain women going on about "toxic masculinity" when all it appears to be to them is, well, anything remotely masculine or male in nature that they themselves do not embody. It also bothers me when women hide behind victim mentality in order to receive affirmation they may or may not deserve--third and fourth wave feminism (or, as I lovingly call it, "feminazism") has really done a number on both genders. Hiding behind victim mentality is unflattering for both genders, to be fair. I used to call myself MGTOW, but when it became overpopulated with angry, whiny, hateful sorts polluting the circle with the flatulence of negativity, I bailed because even though I have my moments, I'm not nearly that bad. I agree with some on here about how trying to be more oppressive than the ones you deem "oppressors" gets us nowhere in the end, and how virtue signaling is mindless and pointless in the end as well.

Yes, there are a lot of overgrown boys out there cosplaying as men, as much as there are overgrown girls cosplaying as women. Difference is? Women hear "YASS QUEEN SLAY," when they do bad things and men are all but slaughtered mercilessly when they do or say anything that goes against the prevailing societal narrative. How is that not "toxic femininity", I ask. I agree that it goes both ways, but these days? I find women to be far worse about being "toxic" than men in general can be. They're worse because they know they can get away with it, because they have the weight of society behind them currently.

So while men are perfectly capable of being immature and foolish, sometimes toxic themselves? There's a reason I've been known to say "Until the laws change, I'll never marry again," because women have everything at their disposal immediately handed to them to utterly ruin a man's life at will. Until we have a more equal and balanced court system, one based in actual equality as opposed to simply seeking petty revenge because men are smelly and stupid? Men will continue to walk away from women, from dating, relationships, and marriage. Myself included.

 

[RDKirk]

Well...certainly some interesting and provocative in a good way discussion, here. Allow me to weigh in a bit.

I can only speak for myself, here, of course. I call myself the "walking gray area" because I am one thing that has disappeared in society; a middle ground. Sensitive and thoughtful, articulate? Certainly. "Soy boy" oversensitive and virtue signaling, not so much. Macho "alpha male" knucklehead wannabe, never. But at the same time, am I a tough and classically masculine guy who can handle himself in a fight if need be? Not so much. I'm in the middle somewhere, and while I like it just fine? Others these days don't seem to grok what I am and where I come from.

It does bother me when I see certain women going on about "toxic masculinity" when all it appears to be to them is, well, anything remotely masculine or male in nature that they themselves do not embody. It also bothers me when women hide behind victim mentality in order to receive affirmation they may or may not deserve--third and fourth wave feminism (or, as I lovingly call it, "feminazism") has really done a number on both genders. Hiding behind victim mentality is unflattering for both genders, to be fair. I used to call myself MGTOW, but when it became overpopulated with angry, whiny, hateful sorts polluting the circle with the flatulence of negativity, I bailed because even though I have my moments, I'm not nearly that bad. I agree with some on here about how trying to be more oppressive than the ones you deem "oppressors" gets us nowhere in the end, and how virtue signaling is mindless and pointless in the end as well.

Yes, there are a lot of overgrown boys out there cosplaying as men, as much as there are overgrown girls cosplaying as women. Difference is? Women hear "YASS QUEEN SLAY," when they do bad things and men are all but slaughtered mercilessly when they do or say anything that goes against the prevailing societal narrative. How is that not "toxic femininity", I ask. I agree that it goes both ways, but these days? I find women to be far worse about being "toxic" than men in general can be. They're worse because they know they can get away with it, because they have the weight of society behind them currently.

So while men are perfectly capable of being immature and foolish, sometimes toxic themselves? There's a reason I've been known to say "Until the laws change, I'll never marry again," because women have everything at their disposal immediately handed to them to utterly ruin a man's life at will. Until we have a more equal and balanced court system, one based in actual equality as opposed to simply seeking petty revenge because men are smelly and stupid? Men will continue to walk away from women, from dating, relationships, and marriage. Myself included.

At this point it's difficult to pose an argument that you should be involved women.

 

[Christopher0121]

I would say those people are missing the point. There's no point using a term like "toxic masculinity" to attack individuals; the point is to have a tool with which we can critique culture and social systems etc.



Then - as someone who also has PTSD - they're ignorant. Trauma and PTSD are not the same thing as toxic masculinity (although they might interact in different people's experiences).



That is probably true.



I am not sure it's fair to say that "society" labels (for example) veterans as toxic, because that really is not what the discourse around toxic masculinity is about. And people confusing PTSD with toxic masculinity are incredibly ignorant about both.

I do agree with you more than disagree. However, I still think what is often said to be toxic masculinity is a matter of societal labeling. John Wayne used to be cultural icon of manhood. However, it is society that changed.

For the sake of this discussion... what are the elements of actual "toxic masculinity"?

 

[Christopher0121]

Well...certainly some interesting and provocative in a good way discussion, here. Allow me to weigh in a bit.

I can only speak for myself, here, of course. I call myself the "walking gray area" because I am one thing that has disappeared in society; a middle ground. Sensitive and thoughtful, articulate? Certainly. "Soy boy" oversensitive and virtue signaling, not so much. Macho "alpha male" knucklehead wannabe, never. But at the same time, am I a tough and classically masculine guy who can handle himself in a fight if need be? Not so much. I'm in the middle somewhere, and while I like it just fine? Others these days don't seem to grok what I am and where I come from.

It does bother me when I see certain women going on about "toxic masculinity" when all it appears to be to them is, well, anything remotely masculine or male in nature that they themselves do not embody. It also bothers me when women hide behind victim mentality in order to receive affirmation they may or may not deserve--third and fourth wave feminism (or, as I lovingly call it, "feminazism") has really done a number on both genders. Hiding behind victim mentality is unflattering for both genders, to be fair. I used to call myself MGTOW, but when it became overpopulated with angry, whiny, hateful sorts polluting the circle with the flatulence of negativity, I bailed because even though I have my moments, I'm not nearly that bad. I agree with some on here about how trying to be more oppressive than the ones you deem "oppressors" gets us nowhere in the end, and how virtue signaling is mindless and pointless in the end as well.

Yes, there are a lot of overgrown boys out there cosplaying as men, as much as there are overgrown girls cosplaying as women. Difference is? Women hear "YASS QUEEN SLAY," when they do bad things and men are all but slaughtered mercilessly when they do or say anything that goes against the prevailing societal narrative. How is that not "toxic femininity", I ask. I agree that it goes both ways, but these days? I find women to be far worse about being "toxic" than men in general can be. They're worse because they know they can get away with it, because they have the weight of society behind them currently.

So while men are perfectly capable of being immature and foolish, sometimes toxic themselves? There's a reason I've been known to say "Until the laws change, I'll never marry again," because women have everything at their disposal immediately handed to them to utterly ruin a man's life at will. Until we have a more equal and balanced court system, one based in actual equality as opposed to simply seeking petty revenge because men are smelly and stupid? Men will continue to walk away from women, from dating, relationships, and marriage. Myself included.

I'm not MGTOW. However, I agree with many of their points. I look at a commitment to celibacy and being single from a more devotional or Pauline perspective. If I meet the right woman... I might try again. However, I'm 46 years old and set in my ways. I don't think there are any women out there that could love me if they tried. lol

 

[Paidiske]

For the sake of this discussion... what are the elements of actual "toxic masculinity"?

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

 

[Christopher0121]

Well, here's a list of traits associated with toxic masculinity from an organisation which works with young men with addiction issues etc (the whole page is worth a read).

• Unconditional physical toughness
• Physical aggression, fear of emotions
• Discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual
• Hyper independence
• Sexual aggression or violence
• Anti-feminist behavior

As an 8 year Army vet, those sound like my morning affirmations. lol

But seriously, how much of that is in the eye of the beholder?

 

[Margot Lugo]

I do agree with you more than disagree. However, I still think what is often said to be toxic masculinity is a matter of societal labeling. John Wayne used to be cultural icon of manhood. However, it is society that changed.

For the sake of this discussion... what are the elements of actual "toxic masculinity"?

I have no idea either. Is it part of identity politics?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Toxic masculinity is when a guy burps at the table, doesn't excuse himself, gets up, and leaves his dirty plate for his 84-year-old mother to clean. (JK)

My 10 year old daughter has done that in the past too. I see it more as poor manors than "toxic masculinity".

But also, I see it as a bad stereotype when women assume this to be typical man-type behavior.. Clearly it's not.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...And everyone knows women pass gas too, even though they deny it.

 

[Paidiske]

But seriously, how much of that is in the eye of the beholder?

In the case of that list, the "beholder" is a group of highly qualified therapists working with young men with serious issues, so I'd say that gives it some weight.

Is some of this subjective? Sure. But does that mean we should entirely dismiss it as a social and cultural phenomenon? I'm not so sure. I look at that list and I see real and serious social issues which deserve to be tackled.