Tormented in presence of Messengers and the Lamb

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

LittleLambofJesus said:

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

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I am yet to meet a Christian that doesn't believe God issues some form of violent justice upon those of us who need it.

However, it strikes me as interesting that those same Christians would find it disturbing that the smack down would take place right in front of the main players.

Is it less disturbing for God to order some other entity to jack you up, and then walk away so He doesn't have to see it happen? Is such even possible for an omnipotent God?

Yes, God beats some justice into some of us, and yes even the most loving aspects of Him are present and aware it is happening. What's disturbing or cruel about that?

God has always been "above board" therefore, to some degree...
...The fate of the unsaved will not be under-the-table.
...Instead, it will be verifiably just punishment.

Thought this was a cool follow-up to the idea presented:

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."

cubinity said:

I am yet to meet a Christian that doesn't believe God issues some form of violent justice upon those of us who need it.

However, it strikes me as interesting that those same Christians would find it disturbing that the smack down would take place right in front of the main players.

Is it less disturbing for God to order some other entity to jack you up, and then walk away so He doesn't have to see it happen? Is such even possible for an omnipotent God?

Yes, God beats some justice into some of us, and yes even the most loving aspects of Him are present and aware it is happening. What's disturbing or cruel about that?

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Those passages are not about "us" if you're a believer, it's about the beast and his followers.
Rev 14:9 Another angel, a third one, followed them and said in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he will indeed drink the wine of God's fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb,
Rev 14:11 and the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and ever. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name."
Rev 14:12 This is when perseverance is needed on the part of God's people, those who observe his commands and exercise Yeshua's faithfulness.

cubinity said:

Thought this was a cool follow-up to the idea presented:

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."

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Didn't see this, when I posted.

cubinity said:

Thought this was a cool follow-up to the idea presented:

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."

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I can view the ones Jesus is talking about in Luke 16 concerning the richman/lazarus.
Both are believers in God, but only Lazarus remained faithful to both God and Jesus.
I found these 2 commentaries interesting on the word "torment" used in the NT/NC of the Bible. Thoughts?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (NKJV)

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.

According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."
The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:
In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur[ative] sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .

The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. [Basanos] now comes to denote "torture" or "the rack," espec[ially] used with slaves . . . [Basanos] occurs in the sense of "torment" . . .

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7


The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire.

Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages - see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

yedida said:

Those passages are not about "us" if you're a believer, it's about the beast and his followers.
Rev 14:9 Another angel, a third one, followed them and said in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he will indeed drink the wine of God's fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb,
Rev 14:11 and the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and ever. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name."
Rev 14:12 This is when perseverance is needed on the part of God's people, those who observe his commands and exercise Yeshua's faithfulness.

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No prob.
If you take the time to get to know me, you will realize I don't use competitive language when discussing people. I only speak of people, regardless of their identification with Christianity, and thus find that "us" is an entirely appropriate expression.

Pythons said:

God has always been "above board" therefore, to some degree...
...The fate of the unsaved will not be under-the-table.
...Instead, it will be verifiably just punishment.

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Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

LittleLambofJesus said:

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

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It's not cruel in the slightest. God is simply giving them what they really deserve.

People don't really realize why people go to hell because they don't understand how evil the human race really is. In addition, they don't really understand that the human race is guilty of the crime of infinite murder. Evidently, they haven't studied the Scriptures diligently enough, because it's in there.

Also, I just wanted to add - for those who might think that the LOF is "no big deal" as in the torments there really aren't all that bad - even the demons are afraid of the LOF:

"28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not." Lu. 8:28

"24Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." Mk. 1:24

I've searched the Scriptures pretty diligently, but I see no mention of this "infinite murder" you accuse us all of. Care to expound?

LittleLambofJesus said:

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

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This verse is talking about final judgment. Compare it with Revelation 20:9. The wicked will come up against God in His holy city, but fire from God will devour them. They will be tormented for as long as their punishment dictates, and then they will be consumed.

razeontherock said:

I've searched the Scriptures pretty diligently, but I see no mention of this "infinite murder" you accuse us all of. Care to expound?

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I've heard an argument like that before.
It is something like, "Eternal punishment is only justice if we are guilt of an infinite crime. So, I will call something-or-other infinite so I can feel that God is justified in punishing people eternally."
I personally find the argument weird and largely the work of creativity.

razeontherock said:

I've searched the Scriptures pretty diligently, but I see no mention of this "infinite murder" you accuse us all of. Care to expound?

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Murder..........

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for ESV
(murder)
occurs 24 times in 23 verses in the ESV
Page 1 / 1 inexact matches (Exd 20:13 - 1Jo 3:12)

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G5407 matches the Greek φονεύω (phoneuō), which occurs 13 times in 10 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB

Last time used in NT:

James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.
[Matt 23:31/Reve 9:21]

5407. phoneuo fon-yoo'-o from 5406; to be a murderer (of):--kill, do murder, slay.

razeontherock said:

I've searched the Scriptures pretty diligently, but I see no mention of this "infinite murder" you accuse us all of. Care to expound?

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"15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. " 1 Jn. 3:15

God's definition of hatred is a lack of absolute divine love. Because the human race possesses no absolute divine love, and will not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ to obtain absolute divine love (see 1 Jn. 3:1, Jn. 17 last two verses, etc.) the only thing that the human race can do is hate continually.

In other words, the only thing the human race does is hate every single person that they meet. Therefore, they in fact (by God's standard, which is the truth and which is reality) actually murder every single last person that they meet. In addition, since absolute divine love (which is God's standard, and which is actually what God is comprised of) never ceases, never fails, is eternal, and is absolute, and is always in every single point in time, a lack of absolute divine love applies in respect to every single point in time for all eternity. Thus, the crime that has been committed is infinite murder - in short, the human race is guilty of murdering everyone, everywhere, for all time, forever. And that's why they're going to the lake of fire and brimstone.

Jesus Christ put it this way in Matthew 7:

"18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Mt. 7:18

A person who does not possess absolute divine love cannot do a good deed. Everything they do or say is in some way evil or corrupt. This again applies for all eternity.

And God put it this way in Genesis 6:

"5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 6:5

Basically, the point is is that God's standard of love is so great, so vast, so beyond the universe itself that anything else in comparison is simply defined as infinite murder. I could draw an analogy here. Suppose that you go into the gym and you benchpress 400 lbs. You think that's a lot of weight, and you're quite proud of yourself. But then someone else walks into the gym and benchpresses 999 trillion (onwards into infinity) pounds. How does your benchpress look from his perspective? It looks like infinite murder.

God made a way for the human race to obtain absolute divine love. The human race refused, and hence they are guilty of infinite murder (since they do not possess any absolute divine love).

cubinity said:

I've heard an argument like that before.
It is something like, "Eternal punishment is only justice if we are guilt of an infinite crime.

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It's a correct argument. Eternal punishment is very unjust if the human race is not guilty of an infinite crime. But that's the point. They are guilty of an infinite crime. And the name of that crime is infinite murder.

cubinity said:

So, I will call something-or-other infinite so I can feel that God is justified in punishing people eternally."

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I'm not calling anything anything. I'm just simply using logic, reason, and Biblical quotations. You have neither of these three on your side.

cubinity said:

I personally find the argument weird and largely the work of creativity.

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It's reality. And you will discover it to be reality some day.

LittleLambofJesus said:

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

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Holy messengers... like holy angels,.. wasn't it Gabriel who came with a message for Daniel's prayer and ended up in a blocked way that took some fighting to get through to answer Daniel's prayer.. I am sure the repercussions is called justice.

visionary said:

Holy messengers... like holy angels,.. wasn't it Gabriel who came with a message for Daniel's prayer and ended up in a blocked way that took some fighting to get through to answer Daniel's prayer.. I am sure the repercussions is called justice.

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Yes.

Daniel 9:21 And while I was speaking in prayer, and the man Gabriy'el, whom I saw in vision in beginning, fainting to faintness, touching to me at time of oblation of evening

Luke 1:19 And answering, the messenger said to him "I am Gabriel the one beside standing before YHWH and I was commissioned to speak toward thee and to well-messagize to thee of these-things"

From what I understand, it was Gabriel the Muslims say visited Muhammad

http://www.christianforums.com/t7258400-15/#post47766231
Muslims: Tell us about Muhammad's first encounter in the cave with "Gabriel"

Did the "being" in the cave identify himself as the angel Gabriel in the first or even in the second encounter as the angel Gabriel?

What is the official report? Please tell us.

Thanks.

Achilles6129 said:

It's a correct argument. Eternal punishment is very unjust if the human race is not guilty of an infinite crime. But that's the point. They are guilty of an infinite crime. And the name of that crime is infinite murder.

I'm not calling anything anything. I'm just simply using logic, reason, and Biblical quotations. You have neither of these three on your side.

It's reality. And you will discover it to be reality some day.

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Correct or not. It is moot. I am saved, and need not concern myself with the bureaucracy of damnation. Case dismissed.

Achilles6129 said:

God's definition of hatred is a lack of absolute divine love. Because the human race possesses no absolute divine love, and will not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ to obtain absolute divine love (see 1 Jn. 3:1, Jn. 17 last two verses, etc.) the only thing that the human race can do is hate continually.

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That's a false dichotomy.

LittleLambofJesus said:

This passage in Revelation has always fascinated me, and for others it is generally view as disturbing and/or cruel

What is particularly interesting here, is that it shows the person being tormented in the presence of both the holy messengers and the Lamb. Would anyone like to discuss this? Thanks

Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

Textus Rec.) Revelation 14:10 kai autoV pietai ek tou oinou tou qumou tou qeou tou kekerasmenou akratou en tw pothriw thV orghV autou kai basanisqhsetai en puri kai qeiw enwpion twn agiwn aggelwn kai enwpion tou arniou

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I love this verse because I also find interesting.

first of all, they are tormented in the presence of the messengers and Christ so that puts a nail in the coffin of the idea that Hell is eternal separation from God.

Secondly it says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever so either Jesus is going to being busy tormenting the people forever and ever or He's not!

Either way You look at it You have a problem.

If You subscribe to the point of view that Jesus is tormenting sinners forever and ever then the saved will also viewing the torment of sinners forever, since it says that We (those who belong to Christ) shall ever be with Him.
If that idea doesn't bother You then bear in mind that some of those will inevitably be You loved ones and friends.

If You don't subscribe to the point of view that Christ is tormenting or viewing the torment of souls forever and ever then what happens when it's all over?
Does He just walk away, and if so what is Your scriptural backing for this?

Either way, I think this verse creates a major headache for proponents of the eternal Hellfire belief.