Topless/Nude Beach?

[Romanseight2005]

What Wolfgate wrote is sensible. The forbidden can become a component of the erotic. But we must establish what is forbidden. Some of us are saying that the 'forbiddenness' of the female breast is more a cultural than a biblically established 'standard and consequently within a moral framework it can be accepted as a component of the female form without automatic eroticism being attached.

And some of us suspect that the 'forbidden flesh' teaching within some Christian circles actually creates the eroticism through that stance, thereby creating an issue causing many people go through all sorts of hoops seeking to be set 'free free' from 'lust'. Nudists will testify pretty much to a "so what " rather than an 'Ohh Ahh ' reaction to the naked body. Surely that's far healthier and saner than the anguish experienced by many Christians trying to better integrate their normal sexuality and values?

Sexual intercourse was created for intimacy etc. But human sexuality, by virtue of there being two genders, is far wider than that. This is a basic reality of creation that often just is not recognised adequately by the moralists, who restrict all matters sexual within moral categories without properly acknowledging its far wider reality.

John
NZ

I want to focus on the bold part. I want you to understand that I am not discussing whether or not a person should be aroused by this or that. That's a discussion for another day.

What I AM talking about is the very idea that if it's forbidden, then there is a draw to it. Don't you see? Whether it's culture that actually forbade it, or not, the reality is that the draw to the forbidden comes from rebellion.

See, if the only reason something is wrong, is that it is culturally wrong, and not wrong by God's standards, that doesn't change the perception in one's mind, of wrongness. What I mean is that we are still talking about wanting to do something, for the purpose of doing that which is wrong, even if it really isn't. The underlying motive is still rebellion.

So, why is the forbidden a component of erotic? That is my question. I do apologize if this has gone off topic, it's just that the statement hugely jumped out at me, and I am not trying to derail anything. I will start a new thread, and we can continue this discussion.

 

[Johnnz]

Hi,

You asked "So, why is the forbidden a component of erotic? That is my question."

The erotic (i.e. the sexually arousing or stimulating) has several components, some of which are the physical (hormones, sex organs), the imaginative, the novel, the visual, the cultural stereotype, and the forbidden (a bit 'naughty'). Couples who enjoy good sex employ the erotic as part of their sexual relationship. We can refer to that as foreplay.

So, the forbidden and social nudity? When we deem breasts and genitals as 'not for public display' we relegate them to the realms of the forbidden and the imaginative, thereby adding to their erotic value. The real moral question then becomes whether or not God forbids such open viewing. If He does, then it will be wrong either to be naked publicly or to desire some public viewing of another's naked body. But if social nudity does not transgress Christian values then we are dealing with a cultural value only, and they can change. Female ankles and later knees were once forbidden in public.

What I have been saying then is that our cultural values add to the eroticism of parts of the human body and one way to lessen that is to take away some of the cultural prohibitions (forbiddennes) against social nudity.

Hopefully, this will clarify this matter for you. It was not entirely off topic either, in that ones views on the topic will be very largely governed by what has been discussed and will lie behind whatever choice a person will make.

John
NZ

 

[Romanseight2005]

But do you realize what you just said was erotic? By your definition of erotic, you have intermingled sinfulness into it. If forbidden fruit is erotic, that is sinful. If novel is erotic, then what does that stem from? What leads us to desire something new? Is it boredom, perhaps a lack of contentment? I am not sure what gets included in the imaginantion part, but the real issue here, is what we are calling erotic. If those are the elements that make up eroticism, then aren't we making our sexuality sinful by catering to the sinful nature when we include what you are calling eroticism?

Frankly, social nudity, or lack there of, is simply symptomatic of what we are allowing to be part of our sexuality, ergo, your definition of eroticism.

 

[Rev.Ross]

Being around natural nudity would cure the porn addiction. Please go to
mychainsarefree.org
This is a very healing site for body acceptance/nudity as a way to overcome the addiction of porn. God made us nude, and society not God has made nudity "evil" just to make money and to addict people to porn. Nude people on a beach in their naked bodies is not porn or erotic. It is just natural.
Thanks, Rev.Ross

 

[Romanseight2005]

Being around natural nudity would cure the porn addiction. Please go to
mychainsarefree.org
This is a very healing site for body acceptance/nudity as a way to overcome the addiction of porn. God made us nude, and society not God has made nudity "evil" just to make money and to addict people to porn. Nude people on a beach in their naked bodies is not porn or erotic. It is just natural.
Thanks, Rev.Ross

I don't disagree with you about nude people on a beach, not being porn But how can that honestly cure porn addiction? Honestly, if people are addicted to porn because they crave the forbidden, how would making nudity not forbidden, change that?

James 1:13-15
14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
NIV

 

[Johnnz]

Get a good modern commentary on Song of Songs. Properly understood it is a celebration of sensual, erotic love.

I suspect you see the word 'erotic' in purely negative terms, as it is often used today. But its basic menaing is sexually arousing or having sexual desire. It's there between husband and wife enjoying sex. It is a component of good, moral sexuality, just as appetite and taste are part of our biological need for nourishment.

And, as some here have been saying social nudity can be far less erotic than being fully clothed. That then is not sinful.

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

The Rev can make his own answer but here is mine. Part of the drive towards porn is just curiosity about the human body. In a clothed society that often means resorting to the furtive and to images. Repeated viewing can create well entrenched habits. Experts are not united about attaching the label of addiction, but most agree that is less than ideal sex.

An image, especially of selected bodies, can be far more imaginative and thereby attractive than the actual bodies found within a normal population. Familiarity with normal naked bodies can take away many of the elements that result in the drive to view. My first experience of social nudity was at an alternative festival some decades ago. Thousands of people, most youngish, most partially or totally naked. What impressed me was the total absence of the more overt sexuality one gets at any beach in summer, how unarousing hundreds of naked bodies together are, how relaxing it was, how so many were enjoying the freedom to be naked without being subject to sexual pressures. That's what I see social nudity can achieve, in contrast to furtive looking at images, sneaking into strip joints, or similar.

John
NZ

 

[Rev.Ross]

Johnnz,
I agree with you here. That is a very good and appropriate answer. The plain fact is that nude does not equal porn. Nudity just is. What we bring in our hearts and minds can turn something good into porn. Being around nude people in a social setting helps root the porn out of our minds and hearts. Then we can be free and know "for the pure, all things are pure."-Thanks Rev.Ross

 

[Rev.Ross]

It is "our own evil desire" not the nude body that causes us to sin.
Thanks. Rev.Ross

 

[Romanseight2005]

Get a good modern commentary on Song of Songs. Properly understood it is a celebration of sensual, erotic love.

I suspect you see the word 'erotic' in purely negative terms, as it is often used today. But its basic menaing is sexually arousing or having sexual desire. It's there between husband and wife enjoying sex. It is a component of good, moral sexuality, just as appetite and taste are part of our biological need for nourishment.

And, as some here have been saying social nudity can be far less erotic than being fully clothed. That then is not sinful.

John
NZ

Actually, I couldn't see it more opposite. I think eroticism is wonderful, but I define it differently than you do. You said that eroticism includes sinful parts to it, and that's where I am disagreeing. I believe that Proverbs 5 describes eroticism very well. One is to be intoxicated with his aging wife, who he has been married to for a long time. Not, bring something new in, or bring some element of forbidden in.

Btw, in Song of Songs, their thoughts are completely on eachother. I am in absolute agreement that erotic is good, but erotic should not be extended to include the world's idea, or the sinful elements of the fallen nature, as part of it.

 

[McScribe]

Sex is just sex. It is our choices and attitudes about it that reflect godliness.

 

[Rev.Ross]

Eroticism is for marriage, and it is good. The first time I was alone with my wife, we were naked and unashamed, and it was very erotic. I still feel that way about her. We are older and so are our bodies, but she is still a very sensual person. I like that about her a lot.
There is a sensuality built into the female which guys pick up on, and it can become erotic or not. My first trip to the nude beach was erotic about 5 minutes in my head, but then just normal, and sometimes sensual (but without lust). I can see a nude female and think she is a good looking woman without wanting to have sex with her. I think a woman can think that about a man, and not sin as well. My sister is a big fan of Paul Newman. He was a sensual man. But my sister had a husband more like Burl Ives.The Song of Solomon is very sensual and erotic and it keeps building in its eroticism. Solomon was a very sensual person, but he did not keep that in check, and eroticism overtook his life. But that is life, nude bodies are just that without any judgement applied. It is only what we bring to that experience that can turn that sinful IN OUR MIND.
There was a guy I met who was a bouncer in a strip club. He had worked there for many years, and he said he never noticed the women anymore. I am not recommending that. It is just that if we acculturate ourselves to the nude experience, it will be no big deal to us, just natural. Men and woman can do this without lust. There are some good and safe naturist resorts, and one of them has a church-Ivor, VA. The other big resort is Paw Paw, WV. I want to visit sometime to renew my experience of naturism.
God love you, Rev. Ross

 

[Romanseight2005]

But none of you are addressing the point. If we are going to define eroticism as sensual behavior that is completely and totally in thought and deed about each other in a married couple, that builds in knowing each other as total people, then I agree with you.

Proverbs 5 describes it well. It tells a man to be intoxicated with his wife's aginging breasts. That's not, make her dress up ;ike the maid, or watch porn together,etc. It's about totally getting in to each other as a married couple, sexually.

If however, you are going to throw into the mix, forbidden fruit, or novelty, you have completely changed it from being about two people sensually, to being something completely different.

 

[Romanseight2005]

And again, I am not saying nudity is bad, but I certainly don't see how it can solve the problem of porn addiction. Just because people can get desensitized, which is what you are really talking about, doesn't change the desires of the heart. You will always need something new or different. If nudity is no longer new or different, then something else will need to take it's place.

 

[Rev.Ross]

I think is the work of the Spirit of God to teach us a proper theology of the Body. If we learn from the Bible through the work of the Spirit that the human body is good and nudity is neutral, we can grow spiritually and ethically.
Peace, Rev.Ross

 

[WolfGate]

And again, I am not saying nudity is bad, but I certainly don't see how it can solve the problem of porn addiction. Just because people can get desensitized, which is what you are really talking about, doesn't change the desires of the heart. You will always need something new or different. If nudity is no longer new or different, then something else will need to take it's place.

Absolutely agree. I think I'm understanding better now the root of the question in the spinoff thread you started.

 

[Johnnz]

But none of you are addressing the point. If we are going to define eroticism as sensual behavior that is completely and totally in thought and deed about each other in a married couple, that builds in knowing each other as total people, then I agree with you.

Great. That's clear for both of us.

Proverbs 5 describes it well. It tells a man to be intoxicated with his wife's aginging breasts. That's not, make her dress up ;ike the maid, or watch porn together,etc. It's about totally getting in to each other as a married couple, sexually.

I'm not at all sure this isn't your own imposition onto that text. The writer was talking about faithfulness to ones wife, not eroticism.

Neither of us dispute the use of porn. Porn is ugly. Period.

If however, you are going to throw into the mix, forbidden fruit, or novelty, you have completely changed it from being about two people sensually, to being something completely different.

Not at all. Any couple who does the same thing the same way year after year is more likely to have mechanical than really interactive and deeply satisfying sex. Or very little sex. Foreplay, special underwear, prolonged nudity and various ways of sexual stimulation, outdoors sex, all involve aspects of the sensual and the erotic, in just the same way as spices, new combinations, special processes and imagination can take eating a meal from mere routine to an elevated gustatory pleasure through enhancing our sensuality.

John
NZ

 

[FreeInChrist88]

And again, I am not saying nudity is bad, but I certainly don't see how it can solve the problem of porn addiction. Just because people can get desensitized, which is what you are really talking about, doesn't change the desires of the heart. You will always need something new or different. If nudity is no longer new or different, then something else will need to take it's place.

I don't know if what I'm about to say will adequately address your point, but my own personal experience with nudity (both private and social) has greatly diminished my interest and desire for porn.

I've never been addicted to porn but, like any man, I've been drawn to it and have indulged on isolated occasions. And like many other men, I've battled sexual fantasy in my mind. My sexual desires and interests had a certain amount of perversity in them in my opinion.

I used to believe nudity was a sin. Not only was social nudity a sin in my book, but even private nudity was an abomination to God.

Then one day about 4 years ago, I felt a strong urge to pray naked. I resisted at first fearing that it would dishonor God. But I went ahead and took the plunge reckoning that I could ask God's forgiveness if necessary. To my surprise, my time of fellowship with God was absolutely fantastic! My physical nakedness helped me realize how naked I am before Him both in spirit and soul.

Shortly after that experience, I found out that there were Christians who practiced mixed-gender social nudity. I was appalled! That was sinful in my book. But after exploring the scriptures and discovering the intent of chaste non-sexual social nudity, I have made a complete turn in my view of it.

The positive result is that I have acquired a radically changed perspective of the human body, both male and female. Rather than seeing the body as merely a sex object, I now see and appreciate first and foremost the beauty of the body as God's creation.

This changed perspective makes porn look completely stupid and comical to me. I see it now and I wonder why I ever had any desire to spend time looking at it. I hate the degrading way it depicts women or even men in some situations. Now that I can enjoy social nudity, there is no desire to "run to the darkness" to explore the beauty of the human body.

As far as "needing something new or different" in my life as you say, that hasn't happened to me. God has filled the void. He's cleaned out the perverted desires and sexual fantasy. My relationship with Him is more open and real than it's ever been.

So, if you want to see how chaste non-sexual social nudity can defeat porn, all I can offer is my own personal testimony.

 

[Johnnz]

And again, I am not saying nudity is bad, but I certainly don't see how it can solve the problem of porn addiction. Just because people can get desensitized, which is what you are really talking about, doesn't change the desires of the heart. You will always need something new or different. If nudity is no longer new or different, then something else will need to take it's place.

Nudity by itself will not change porn addiction any more than banning alcohol will cure alcoholism. Jesus and a desire to be changed are also needed, and perhaps some counselling as well. But social nudity has the capacity to reduce the desire for female nudity that can propel many men into porn and other bad sex.

If nudity becomes commonplace for a person? That does not extinguish sexual desire, capacity to enjoy good sex with one's spouse, or to be sexually creative and intimate. Nudity can assist in reducing a major drive for wrong sex, but good, mutually satisfying sex takes application and it is also progressive, requiring mutual learning.

At a gathering of nude people you won't see men with erections. That says a lot. Yet, many men know that even the thought of seeing a naked women will cause arousal. The evidence of reducing mere allure is very plain for all to see amongst nudists.

John
NZ

 

[Rev.Ross]

Free in Christ,
That is a great testimony. Naturism can and does heal people of porn through the Spirit of God. Porn is removed, as you say, and God fills all of us, including our nude body and those nude around us in social settings. When I was younger MANY years ago, I went to strip clubs and that just aroused lust, in the way the female body was presented, and yes I did have erections. I then went home and masturbated or hired a prostitute. Then I started going to nude beaches, and that was sexy about 5 minutes. I saw men and women nude just enjoying nature, swimming, or playing frisbee. Guess what-no erections and no lust. All of this happened when I was away from Christ. A year later I rededicated my life to Jesus Christ, taught at a Bible College, got an MS degree and became a medical scientist, and then later went to seminary and got my M.Div degree. Looking back, I think that part of the turnaround was my experience at the nude beach without lust that helped me come back to the Lord. This was my experience of sin, grace and redemption.
Blessings to all, Rev. Ross